Mon 20:00-21:30 UK time - PC2 - Hosted by @IfAndOr - Please refer to new threadPS4

[joedakiss]

Standard weight distribution is circa 60/40

Ah, didn't realise it was so unbalanced! That explains it, although I'm still confused why the game sends us out with a different fuel load after pitboxing in a fixed-setup ssession than it does when it first sends you out. Surely with setups off you should either just be sent out with whatever the standard setup is after every pitbox, or have a full tank from the off? It's just a strange inconsistency.

Lower PSI values allow more tire flex, with the car having a less snappy behaviour, although at the expense of a less precise control. It was clear that the standard setup has too high tire pressure for the given conditions at Brands Hatch.

I'd have thought 26/27PSI was a bit early for them to be too high but I guess that's down to the vintage tyre compounds?

I probably slowed a fraction more than normal and lost the penalty.

Normally the penalty is only 1 second - what happens if you just ignore it?

The trouble is it's so inconsistent – sometime you lose it just by braking for next corner, others times it stays until you pretty much come to a stop.

I'm fairly sure it escalates every time, which is probably why I got that 30-odd sec penalty in the DBR1 at Oulton a few weeks ago .
Frustrating thing is I never go over track limits intentionally, it's always a result of losing control which costs me time organically anyway!

 

[richroo]

Penaltys yes got more than my share..
Did try to slow but still got one then another then drive through ..ggggrrrr
You can drive a little when it comes up and if there is a slow corner next can clear it but not so lucky last race for me..

Sorry napalm it was me at the start ,after getting squeezed off the start i tried to get under you but pushed you wide ,would have let you by when you caught up (being you were quick) but crashed first ...lol

 

[Sick Cylinder]

Brands Hatch - Round 1

That was one of my most enjoyable races - probably equalling my favourite so far which was the Aston Martin DBR1 at Silverstone Classic. Although @John Wells described it as handling like a jelly, the car in expert hands was producing good lap times - faster than in 1965!

There isn't much footage of the 1965 BSCC season so I thought I would post a table after each round so you can see which drivers and cars were taking the top spots in the season which we are replicating.

The Mustangs of Pierpoint, Salmon and Baillie were 1964 notchback saloon models which had been prepared and entered on behalf of Ford by Alan Mann in the 1964 Tour de France Auto road rally, which they had dominated.

It is interesting to see that Jim Clark (the 1964 BSCC Champion) set the fastest lap in his twin cam Lotus powered Cortina in a time of 1.54.8 just 0.4 seconds slower than the saloon lap record of 1.54.4 (Ford Galaxie 7 litre also held by Clark). Fastest lap by a Mustang was Pierpoint in 1.55.6.

4th place overall and first in Class B was John Rhodes in a 1293cc Mini Cooper S (Fastest Class B lap of 1.58.2 ). Former European champion Warwick Banks was 12th overall and first in Class A in a Mini Cooper S 970 (Fastest Class A lap of 2.02.4).

Under Group 2 rules the engines could be enlarged provided they remained below the class limit hence the sizes of 1594, 1293 and 999 quoted in the table rather than the showroom stock 1558, 1275 and 970cc. 1965 was the last year for Group 2 saloon racing in the UK before switching to a very liberal Group 5 rule set (1966-9 UK and 1968-9 ETCC). The new "Trans Am" Mustang added to the game looks like a car from this Group 5 period, however in the UK the Mustangs were put away and the older ex-Alan Mann Ford Falcon Sprint rally cars (known as "Plastic Bombs") were dusted off. In Group 5 trim the Falcon could be raced at a lower weight than the Mustang.

In the USA the 1965 Shelby GT350 was sold with a fastback body, but only two seats and a spare wheel in the back - this was so that it could enter SCCA events classified as a sports car. It won the SCCA B Production title three years in succession. The Mustang entered in the Trans American Sedan Championship was the notchback saloon.

Four remarkable drivers appear as DNF's in the table - Jim Clark - loose wheel (1964 Champ), Jack Sears - puncture (1958 & 1963 Champ), Frank Gardner (3 time Champ) Gerry Marshall (The winningest British driver - 625 wins).

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

Brands Hatch - Round 1

That was one of my most enjoyable races - probably equalling my favourite so far which was the Aston Martin DBR1 at Silverstone Classic. Although @John Wells described it as handling like a jelly, the car in expert hands was producing good lap times - faster than in 1965!

There isn't much footage of the 1965 BSCC season so I thought I would post a table after each round so you can see which drivers and cars were taking the top spots in the season which we are replicating.

View attachment 705838

The Mustangs of Pierpoint, Salmon and Baillie were 1964 notchback saloon models which had been prepared and entered on behalf of Ford by Alan Mann in the 1964 Tour de France Auto road rally, which they had dominated.

It is interesting to see that Jim Clark (the 1964 BSCC Champion) set the fastest lap in his twin cam Lotus powered Cortina in a time of 1.54.8 just 0.4 seconds slower than the saloon lap record of 1.54.4 (Ford Galaxie 7 litre also held by Clark). Fastest lap by a Mustang was Pierpoint in 1.55.6.

TBC ... (ran out of time!)

As usual, very good and detailed read!

It’s impressive the times that the small and underpowered Minis were pulling. They would be a great addition to the game. We need more nimble old racing cars.

I’ll try to upload a lap and hopefully beat these brave men that raced these beasts in real life back in the sixties.

I’ll do my best to join Monday race as well, because it’s hard for me to miss a race at Oulton.

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

2:03.480... very far from Roy Pierpoint’s time (1:54.8).

In my defence I must say there is plenty of time to be gained with less pressure but I preferred to upload a representative lap of what to expect during the actual race.

Very, very tricky to drive it fast with 28PSI. I think I actually broke my wheel... during this session I noticed it good deal of play in the wheel axle that definitely wasn’t there before. Not very good news.

The lap:



Enjoy!

EDIT: Solved. The play was just the wheel requiring some tightening.

 

[John Wells]

This is quite a good program, part 1.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

2:03.480... very far from Roy Pierpoint’s time (1:54.8).

In my defence I must say there is plenty of time to be gained with less pressure but I preferred to upload a representative lap of what to expect during the actual race.

Very, very tricky to drive it fast with 28PSI. I think I actually broke my wheel... during this session I noticed it good deal of play in the wheel axle that definitely wasn’t there before. Not very good news.

The lap:



Enjoy!

EDIT: Solved. The play was just the wheel requiring some tightening.

Good to hear the wheel is ok! I have finished the post about Round 1 in 1965 - hopefully it is still interesting. Regarding the lap time - after doing some further testing it is obvious that in 1965 the saloons used a different layout so times are not comparable, however I don't like the Island layout and Fosters would result in too much lapped traffic so we are sticking with the longer layout.

This is quite a good program, part 1.

Thanks John - I saw that programme when it was on originally, but will definitely watch it again - thanks for posting.

@Skip7950 I've put some info about the early racing Mustangs in the earlier post about Round 1. I think some of the handling fluctuations are caused by heat transfer from the front drum brakes into the wheels and hence the tyres resulting in raised pressures. The Shelby GT350's used in the SCCA events had disc front brakes as standard, while the Notchback saloons raced in the BSCC and Trans Am events were fitted with the optional front discs.

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

I have finished the post about Round 1 in 1965 - hopefully it is still interesting.

Really, really good stuff. I am still in awe about Mini’s lap times. Handling versus brute force.

I can’t add several quotes on my phone for some reason. About Oulton’s layout. I don’t get why they use Islands in the current BTCC. They miss a great part of the track and the most technical chicane. Well, I get the point, you get to see more action in track if you are attending the venue but from a racing perspective, is a bad decision. Happily, the track days are at the international layout.

As per tire pressures. 28 PSI is far too high for this car. Sounds about right IRL, but it is my feeling that this game physics tend to favour lower pressures. I reckon that slick tires require really low pressures, but it seems that the whole physics system is biased towards low pressures compared to real life.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

Really, really good stuff. I am still in awe about Mini’s lap times. Handling versus brute force.

I can’t add several quotes on my phone for some reason. About Oulton’s layout. I don’t get why they use Islands in the current BTCC. They miss a great part of the track and the most technical chicane. Well, I get the point, you get to see more action in track if you are attending the venue but from a racing perspective, is a bad decision. Happily, the track days are at the international layout.

As per tire pressures. 28 PSI is far too high for this car. Sounds about right IRL, but it is my feeling that this game physics tend to favour lower pressures. I reckon that slick tires require really low pressures, but it seems that the whole physics system is biased towards low pressures compared to real life.

I noticed that the BTCC uses a lot of the shorter track layouts over the course of a season - normally this would be for noise reasons (Brands is only allowed to use the GP layout a few times a year), but it could sometimes be for cost reasons.

The closeness of the lap times amongst the different classes is interesting and the pattern is repeated in previous seasons - the Jaguar 3.8 MK2 saloon lapped in a comparable time with early versions of the twin cam Lotus powered Cortina, while the OHV Cortina 1500GT produced similar lap times to the early 1071cc Mini Cooper and 1200 Anglia. I think this was primarily down to the amount of tyre in relation to the weight of the car. Larger rims with wider tyres were homologated, but the percentage increase in width was much greater on small cars like the Mini.

Today the pre-66 saloons are still running cross-ply tyres, but engine development has greatly increased the power advantage of the cars with big engines - lap times amongst the classes are not as close as they were in 1965.

I don't know what pressures they are using in the classic saloons today, but one of the Historic racers did explain to me last year that tyre pressures are very critical in the Dunlop cross-plies which the regulations require them to run.

While practising in custom races I have noticed that I have an edge over the AI during the first two laps, but when my pressures get higher I lose that advantage.

Anyway - I'm expecting a great race at Oulton - a great track and a car which is really well suited to the track! I hope we get a big turnout!

PS - The two Ford Anglia 1200's were disqualified from 6th and 7th places in round one in 1965 because although Ford had homologated their wider racing wheels they had forgotten to homologate the increased track width which followed from using the wheels!

 

[John Wells]

Does the Mustang suffer brake fad, think last week I had some. Increased the weight of the wheel, car feels a bit better, but still can't drive like IB.

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

I’ll try to join tomorrow! If so I’ll get the cream car with black stripes/roof.

I think the closeness between cars that over the paper are so different, is a thing of the past. Nowadays, with cars being so complicated and technical is harder to overcome weight or lack of power with driving skills.

I don’t have experience with ply tires. I do own a small car from 1975 that runs radial tires with tubes. For a slim 135mm section Michelin X tire and 730kg of weight it needs 23PSI at the rears and 25PSI at the fronts, this being cold pressures. Hence, is hard to believe that a much heavier car, theoretically equipped with road tires, being them much thicker, would require similar pressures when warmed up.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

Daniel Sexton Gurney 13th April 1931 - 14th January 2018

I have just heard that the legendary American racer Dan Gurney passed away yesterday at the age of 86 - our race today will therefore be dedicated to his memory. Rest in peace.

 

[AndreasR]

Results from Oulton Park

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

Race report:

Could have done better in qualifying but had a clean lap at the start and messed up on the second one. Decided to pit to have fresher tires... Mistake. The car then was heavier with 60kg of fuel and was slower on the straights. Tried to make up time on the corners and although successful sometimes, it just wasn’t enough to improve.

The race was quite uneventful. Had a good start and then @Napalm_LT had a good pace until he made a mistake. Then @AndreasR claimed second position and was setting quite consistent lap times. It seems that the more difficult to handle the car, the faster he is. Sadly, he had a penalty that ended up in a drive through and @richroo didn't hesitate to climb into second.

As an anecdote, during the last lap I found the AI. They don’t know about blue flags and their lines were quite erratic. Trying to overtake one of them ended up him hitting me when I was in front and me receiving a contact warning. I gave up then and let them lead.

Of course, race dedicated in memory of Dan Gurney.

After the race I ran a couple of laps at Snetterton 300, another very technical circuit. This lap is an example of a qualifying lap, with tires at 23PSI stopping the clock at 2:18.336



Also I recorded the next lap as well, with tires at 25/26PSI, with me making minor mistakes here and there and therefore a representative lap of what a race lap would look like from my point of view:



Enjoy!

 

[John Wells]

The race started well, was getting past the Al, who were going quick. Had a couple of slides, then got hit by them, going up the lakeside. Flipped car over, got some damage, had too pit, so was right at the back. Then tyre pressure went up and I lost focus making more mistakes.

What setting did you have Al set Sick, in practice I had them too slow. I reduced the size of the grid, put their speed up. That was a lot better, won the race, last night, was having to drive a little quicker.

So in practice for Snetterton, will have them at that speed. Harsk did quite well with controller, think he had bad race as well.

If your going too race the Classic Lotus Harsk, it can get damaged, there a bit more fragile you can lose a wheel.

 

[John Wells]

 

[Sick Cylinder]

Race Report - Round 2 from Oulton Park International 2018

I was pleased to get under 2 minutes 8 seconds in qualifying as this was a fraction better than my practise pace, but was surprised by the high pace of the rest of the field. I got a very bad start, waiting slightly for the person ahead to move and then being rammed hard by an AI driver from the row behind (how hard is it for SMS to programme the cars to avoid other cars at the start? I don't know, but this aspect of the game needs urgent improvement). Unfortunately by the time I got the car pointing in the right direction everyone was long gone. I decided to relax and wait for others to have problems and by half distance I was up to 4th place and dreaming of the same great result as last week at Brands Hatch. Unfortunately the dream was shattered by a seemingly endless series of unforced errors. I find with this car that you either find a rhythm and you can thread the needle or you have an absolute shocker - and that's what happened for the rest of the round - its almost as if the tyre treads get clogged and you never have any grip again - once the rhythm was broken I didn't seem to be able to do anything with the car at all. Hopefully next week I can be more consistent and hold my concentration better, but Snetterton is a very technical track which demands very accurate placement of the car prior to the corner and this is one of the skills which I struggle with.


Race Report - Round 2 from Oulton Park 1965

In 1965 there was also a messy start, but this time amongst the front runners: Pierpoint, Sears, Whitmore and Gardner. Pierpoint won, with his team mate Sir Gawaine Baillie claiming second. Frank Gardner was third overall and first in Class C with the Willment Cortina while John Rhodes was fourth overall and first in Class B (best Mini). Warwick Banks was first in Class A (1 litre) and 10th overall.

Highest class speeds through the one tenth of a mile trap on the straight were Roy Pierpoint (D) Ford Mustang 118mph, Frank Gardner (C) Lotus Cortina 112.4mph, Steve Neal (Matt Neal's Dad) (B) Mini Cooper S 111.4mph, Phil de Banks (A) Mini Cooper S 970 107.4mph.

The DNF's are of some interest: Sir John Whitmore was unlucky at Oulton, but went on to dominate the European Championship in 1965 - the Cortina now free of the fragile Lotus rear suspension which was unsuited to the longer races in Europe (it now used the simple Cortina GT design). John Fitzpatrick was a DNF in his Mini Cooper, but took the British title in 1966 driving a Ford Anglia. Chris McLaren was one of the few people campaigning a Mark 2 3.8 Jaguar Saloon - the big Jags had been dominant from the birth of saloon car racing in the 1950's, but by 1965 had been overpowered by the big engined American Fords. Jack Sears had another DNF - at round one he had a puncture while at round two he suffered ignition failure - the DNF rate was much higher in the 1960's than it is today. Anita Taylor had another DNF in her Mini - Ford were soon to realise the publicity potential of the photogenic Miss Taylor and get her on a "Works" contract. In 1965 there were four ladies racing in the BSCC, of which Christabel Carlisle and Anita Taylor were probably the most talented.

Above Anita racing a Mini Cooper and Broadspeed Anglia (inset).


Next Round 3 from Snetterton 300 - Spaces available - Friend Request to Sick_Cylinder2



Above - in the opening seconds of this clip you can see the number 33 Mustang of Mike Salmon (Pierpoint was number 34 and Baillie number 32 at this meeting). In the sixties race numbers were frequently changed and were normally painted on at the track then washed off.

 

[John Wells]

The approach too Murrys, in the Mustang is tricky.

Track information and maps Setterton.

http://www.racingcircuits.info/europe/united-kingdom/snetterton.html#.WmNXErxl-po

 

[Skip7950]

Car Liveries and Numbers

In Project cars 2 you cannot choose a race number like you can in GT6, but you can choose a livery (colour scheme) which is pre-fitted with a race number. select the car then scroll through until you find the one you want.

If it is not taken, I will use black. Expect to be racing Monday 1/22!

If it is not taken, I will use black. Expect to be racing Monday 1/22!

 

[Skip7950]

Although I don't any color mustangs with numbers...???????

 

[Harsk100]

I actually had a terrible race at Oulton Park International, it was awful. I'm sorry if I ruined someone's race.

 

[AndreasR]

I actually had a terrible race at Oulton Park International, it was awful. I'm sorry if I ruined someone's race.

Try to start in a calm mood - the race is 30 minutes - we all know you can be very fast.
To finish first - you have to finish first.

mate

 

[Harsk100]

Try to start in a calm mood - the race is 30 minutes - we all know you can be very fast.
To finish first - you have to finish first.

mate

I try, but I try to avoid accidents as well. And also, I'm not very good at driving on cockpit mode.

 

[John Wells]

At Setterton, at start, we have some, fast bends, leading to a slow hairpin. The big sausage curbs, on some the corners should be avoided, there quite hard.

So take care at the start, everyone

 

[AndreasR]

Results from Snetterton

 

[John Wells]

Well better race than Oulton Park, not as many offs. I wasn't going too race the Al, this time, got drive through penalty for some reason, maybe didn't see the warning. Good race with Joe, Skip, we all having problems.

This car needs, total concentration, when the tyres go up, have too be very careful, with throttle and brakes.

Well done Harsk.👍

 

[richroo]

Well done all was very hard in this car ,only the one issue

 

[Harsk100]

Well done all was very hard in this car ,only the one issue

So sorry Richroo!

I accidentally braked too late and displayed lack of car control in that incident. I can give the win to Andreas, if needed.

 

[John Wells]

Oh dear, Harsk have you got you, the aids on too show people are there. This will help when people are there.

You may be give Rich the position back, there.

If this had been Lotus 25 or Senna F1, you both might have lost a wheel, race over, can't drive back on 3 wheels.

 

[Antares87]

Oh dear, Harsk have you got you, the aids on too show people are there. This will help when people are there.

Which aids do you advise to turn on?

Thanks