Motorsports Trivia Thread!

[Dotini]

Wasn't the Repco V8 put in some Australian cars? Possibly either GM Australia or Chrysler Australia, I forget which.

I would also wonder if Ferrari's 3 litre flat-12 from their 312, 312B and 312T Grand Prix cars were used in some of their road cars or homologation specials.

Well, even if the Repco was used in a road car, we need to remember the Repco wasn't originally an F1 engine, but a General Motors (Buick-Olds-Pontiac) aluminum V-8 equipped with overhead cams. So the Repco in a road car is a maybe.

With regards to the flat-12 F1 Ferrari engines from the Forghieri 312, 312B series being used in road cars, I don't think so. The first Ferrari road car with a flat 12 was the 1973 365/GT4-BB of 4.4 liters, with timing belts instead of chains, derived from the prior Daytona V-12, and designed by Giuliano de Angelis and Angelo Bellei. The BB 512/ BB 512i and Testarossa/ 512 TR/ F512 M also had the same engines of enlarged displacement. There were no further flat 12 Ferrari road cars that I know of.

The only road cars which I know used Ferrari F1 derived engines were the Ferrari Dino 246 GT, Fiat Dino, and Lancia Stratos.

Also, the Maserati 3500 GT, Sebring and Mistral had an engine whose roots wound through the legendary 250F F1 car.


Fiat Dino Coupé


Maserati 3500GT


Maserati Sebring Series I


Rare 1966 Maserati Mistral 4000

If there are any other road cars with F1 engines, I hope you can find them!

 

[Liquid]

Oh wait, wasn't the Ferrari F50 built specifically to use the 3.5L V12 used by Scuderia Ferrari from 1989-1994?

 

[Pete05]

The Repco V8 was based on an Oldsmobile aluminium block that was found in a Cutlass.

Don’t ask me which one though

 

[Dotini]

The Repco V8 was based on an Oldsmobile aluminium block that was found in a Cutlass.

Don’t ask me which one though

'62-'63 Olds F-85 Jetfire had a turbo!

Oh wait, wasn't the Ferrari F50 built specifically to use the 3.5L V12 used by Scuderia Ferrari from 1989-1994?

Good find!
I do believe you have found another one derived from an F1 engine, although it was much enlarged and came more directly from the 333 SP racing sports prototype. Although the F50 was raced in GT1, there were several hundred produced as ultra high end road cars.

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There may be one or two more road cars with F1 derived engines if we keep looking.

 

[Liquid]

Some early Lotus sportscars like the XI and XI used Coventry-Climax FPF engines but that's as close as I can find. The Coventry-Climax Formula One engines were FWMV and FWMWs so... not quite the same thing. The Hillman Imp used a heavily detuned FWMA engine which was never used in Formula One.

It would be interesting to know if BRM engines ever made it into a road legal car.

 

[Pete05]

The BMW 2002 used an iron block that became the starting point for what I believe to be the most powerful F1 engine ever.
It also won the WDC in the back of a Brabham for Nelson Piquet.

 

[Dotini]

The '51 Talbot-Lago sports car has the same engine as the 1950 Talbot F1 car. However, both were derived from pre-war sports car builds.

1951 Talbot-Lago T26 Gran Sport Cabriolet by Stabilimenti Farina

1948 Talbot-Lago T26C

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From the late '40's, OSCA built wildly popular and successful small displacement sports racing cars, Stirling Moss outright winning Sebring in '54.
The bullet-proof 1500 cc was run in World Championship GP cars from '53-'62 in various chassis, including Cooper and deTomaso. Top coach builders such as Frua, Vignale, and Pininfarina jumped at the chance to build coupe and Berlinetta coachwork.

1950 OSCA MT4 Vignale Berlinetta

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1950 Gordini Type 15S, road legal and raced at LeMans


Gordini competed unsuccessfully in Formula 1 racing from 1950 to 1953.

 

[Dotini]

The BMW 2002 used an iron block that became the starting point for what I believe to be the most powerful F1 engine ever.
It also won the WDC in the back of a Brabham for Nelson Piquet.

100% correct. Altho that BMW grenade running at 5 atmospheres was only good for a few laps. With those special tires exuding glue, some really sweet qualy times were achieved.

So now we know that production derived Oldsmobile and BMW engines were used in F1. The record shows production Porsche and Alfa engines also served at times.

But, has a boat engine ever made it to F1?

 

[-Fred-]

But, has a boat engine ever made it to F1?

McLaren did run boat anchors for a few seasons recently, but that's neither here or there.

 

[Barra333]

100% correct. Altho that BMW grenade running at 5 atmospheres was only good for a few laps. With those special tires exuding glue, some really sweet qualy times were achieved.

So now we know that production derived Oldsmobile and BMW engines were used in F1. The record shows production Porsche and Alfa engines also served at times.

But, has a boat engine ever made it to F1?

I don't know about that, but plenty of aircraft engines made it to competition racing boats.

 

[Dotini]

McLaren did run boat anchors for a few seasons recently, but that's neither here or there.

You know what Fred? I'm going to give you the win on this one, simply because Bruce McLaren won the one race in which a racing boat derived engine did indeed compete in an F1 GP!! You may have hidden psychic powers.

In 1959 the great Rodger Ward competed at the USGP in an undersized Kurtis-Kraft with a two speed gearbox and marine racing derived Offenhauser engine. This simple dirt track midget sprint car had the speed to defeat the reigning World Champion sports car, the Aston Martin DBR2 driven by a reigning US national champion, at the swerving Lime Rock circuit, but was hopeless on the sharp corners and long straights of Sebring.

Your turn!

Rodger Ward chasing down and passing factory Aston Martin team car at Lime Rock. His Kurtis-Kraft was built in 1946 and had 12" wheels. The hand brake operated rear wheels only.

 

[Pete05]

You know what Fred? I'm going to give you the win on this one, simply because Bruce McLaren won the one race in which a racing boat derived engine did indeed compete in an F1 GP!! You may have hidden psychic powers.

In 1959 the great Rodger Ward competed at the USGP in an undersized Kurtis-Kraft with a two speed gearbox and marine racing derived Offenhauser engine. This simple dirt track midget sprint car had the speed to defeat the reigning World Champion sports car, the Aston Martin DBR2 driven by a reigning US national champion, at the swerving Lime Rock circuit, but was hopeless on the sharp corners and long straights of Sebring.

Your turn!

Rodger Ward chasing down and passing factory Aston Martin team car at Lime Rock. His Kurtis-Kraft was built in 1946 and had 12" wheels. The hand brake operated rear wheels only.

Because Sir Jack Brabham would’ve had his 94th birthday last week, I was reviewing his 1959 season & caught some footage of Ward in this very car.

It looked totally out of place but he made the thing move alright

 

[Dotini]

Because Sir Jack Brabham would’ve had his 94th birthday last week, I was reviewing his 1959 season & caught some footage of Ward in this very car.

It looked totally out of place but he made the thing move alright

I spent about 15 highly enjoyable minutes chatting with Sir Jack and his charming wife when they visited the Tacoma Dome historic event a few years ago. Jack drove his Chevy powered F5000 to win the event as I recall. I've had similar conversations with Nigel Mansell, Emerson Fittipaldi, Dan Gurney, Jim Hall, Arie Luyendyk and others from the old days. Jack and Dan were by far the most pleasant.

 

[Liquid]

1951 Belgian Grand Prix

Driver: Juan Manuel Fangio ARG
Car: Alfa Romeo 159 (1.5L supercharged I8)
Finished: 9th

A stubborn wheel at a pit stop cost Fangio 14 minutes, resulting in the polesitter and setter of the fastest lap finishing uncharacteristically well down the order.

Fangio's 9th finish at the 1951 Belgian Grand Prix is his only classified finish in which he did not score a point.

From 52 entries he:

Finished 1st 24 times
Finished 2nd 10 times
Finished 3rd 1 time
Finished 4th 5 times
Finished 9th 1 time
DNFed 10 times
DNQed 1 time at the technically eligible 1958 Indianapolis 500.

I find it quite incredible that from 41 finishes, he scored points 40 times.

As a comparison, here is how Fangio's still-extant record of % of races won stands up today:

Juan Manuel Fangio - 46% of races won (24 from 52)
Jim Clark - 34% (25 from 72)
Lewis Hamilton - 33% (84 from 250)
Michael Schumacher - 30% (91 from 308)
Alain Prost - 25% (51 from 202)
Ayrton Senna - 25% (41 from 162)

Michael Schumacher (2006) - 36% (91 from 250)

/Boring Statistics

 

[Roger the Horse]

The low number of DNFs is really impressive considering the era as well. I can't imagine those cars were terribly reliable.

 

[Roo]

Although the F50 was raced in GT1, there were several hundred produced as ultra high end road cars.

One minor correction - the F50 never raced in GT1, or indeed at all. 3 F50 GTs were built and 1 tested, but when the BPR Global GT Series folded, Ferrari decided to concentrate on F1 as they were unhappy about homologation specials being allowed in endurance racing (dropping sportscars to compete in F1, compare that to 30 years previously!) and the F50 was never raced. The 3 completed cars were sold into private ownership on the condition they never raced. Apparently in testing it was faster than the 333SP.

 

[Dotini]

The low number of DNFs is really impressive considering the era as well. I can't imagine those cars were terribly reliable.

That is a very keen observation, one I'd never considered before. Maybe the 2 or 3 top teams of the day had superbly prepared cars that ran under strict team orders. Another advantage they had before 1958 was non-petroleum based fuels. Alcohol allowed the engine to run cooler, and a healthy dose of Castor oil in the fuel added to lubricate the valves.

 

[Dotini]

I find it quite incredible that from 41 finishes, he scored points 40 times.

Yes, in terms of all other drivers in the entire history not only of Formula One, but all of Grand Prix racing since 1906, this is completely unique.

My best possible explanations:
- At the time, most of the top pre-war drivers had faded from the scene, and the other top driver of the day, Wimille, had died young.
- With backing from "interesting" sources, a mature and experienced Fangio came to Europe and obtained a seat on the top customer GP car of the day, the Maserati 4CLT/48.
- By 1950, Fangio was on the only top team of the day, Alfa Romeo. Ferrari had yet to win an important race.
- By 1951, Fangio had demonstrated superiority over the only two drivers who had the car to equal him.
- For the rest of his career, Fangio was able to choose what car he wished to drive for any particular year. And he alway chose wisely. For 1954, he started the season with Maserati, won, then switched to Mercedes-Benz and won even more.
- Fangio, an experienced mechanic and accomplished long distance race before he came to Europe, had a great mechanical sympathy. Unlike later drivers like Mario Andretti - "the only man on Earth who could break an anvil with a rubber mallet", he always drove with sensitivity to the limits of the car.
- Competitive cars from England simply didn't exist during his era.

 

[Roger the Horse]

I think regardless of what statistics say, there are probably very few drivers in the history of Grand Prix racing who could rival what Fangio achieved. Perhaps the most remarkable thing is that he was not a young man when he raced in F1, and he remains the oldest ever champion to this day. The only real question mark over Fangio's career is that of Alberto Ascari.

With Fangio missing 1952 there are only two seasons in which Fangio and Ascari both would've had competitive machinery, 1951 and 1953, with each taking a first and a second apiece from those two seasons. Perhaps if Ascari had lived and Lancia had been better able to develop the D50 (which of course Fangio would win the title in in 1956 run by Scuderia Ferrari) we might have a better sense of comparision between the two.

 

[Liquid]

Fangio also won 5 titles with 4 different teams, surely a record that cannot practically be surpassed?

 

[Dotini]

Fangio also won 5 titles with 4 different teams, surely a record that cannot practically be surpassed?

Perhaps a driver could be found who accomplished 5 or more titles with 4 or more teams when counted across disciplines in addition to Formula 1?
Mario Andretti? Emerson Fittipaldi?

 

[Liquid]

Perhaps a driver could be found who accomplished 5 or more titles with 4 or more teams when counted across disciplines in addition to Formula 1?
Mario Andretti? Emerson Fittipaldi?

Yannick Dalmas won Le Mans four times with four different teams and four different marques but that's not quite the same thing.

Yvan Muller won the French Supertouring Championship with Oreca, the BTCC with Triple 8 and the WTCC with both Seat Sport and RML; two world titles and two national titles.

I simply don't think you can match Fangio in this regard unless someone has won the USAC/Champ Car title with 4 different teams.

 

[Populuxe]

A. J. Foyt comes close, having won the USAC championship seven times with three teams.

1960 Bowes Racing
1961 Bowes Racing
1963 Ansted-Thompson Racing
1964 Ansted-Thompson Racing
1967 Ansted-Thompson Racing
1975 Gilmore Racing
1979 Gilmore Racing

 

[Dotini]

A. J. Foyt comes close, having won the USAC championship seven times with three teams.

1960 Bowes Racing
1961 Bowes Racing
1963 Ansted-Thompson Racing
1964 Ansted-Thompson Racing
1967 Ansted-Thompson Racing
1975 Gilmore Racing
1979 Gilmore Racing

Good catch!
Also, Foyt was the only driver to win the Indianapolis 500 (four times), the Daytona 500, the 24 Hours of Daytona, the 24 Hours of Le Mans and the 12 Hours of Sebring.

My father used to watch Foyt race back in the 50's when he was running dirt track midgets in Texas with his dad. He said he was a real jerk and a bully. Would beat the other drivers with his fists before the race. Eventually Foyt raced against Mario Andretti, but couldn't bring himself to beat up on Mario because he was so small.

At the end of the day, I have to admit Fangio was the highest star in the racing firmament, being a gentleman and admired by all his competitors, not hated like Foyt. The worst that can said of Fangio is that he had some dubious backers at the start of his career.

 

[Pete05]

Good catch!
Also, Foyt was the only driver to win the Indianapolis 500 (four times), the Daytona 500, the 24 Hours of Daytona, the 24 Hours of Le Mans and the 12 Hours of Sebring.

My father used to watch Foyt race back in the 50's when he was running dirt track midgets in Texas with his dad. He said he was a real jerk and a bully. Would beat the other drivers with his fists before the race. Eventually Foyt raced against Mario Andretti, but couldn't bring himself to beat up on Mario because he was so small.

At the end of the day, I have to admit Fangio was the highest star in the racing firmament, being a gentleman and admired by all his competitors, not hated like Foyt. The worst that can said of Fangio is that he had some dubious backers at the start of his career.

This is why I don’t like A.J.Foyt ll

 

[Liquid]

I find it quite incredible that from 41 finishes, he scored points 40 times.

Update: And this really should have occurred to me at the time. Although he did not finish in the points-paying positions, Juan Manuel Fangio did score a point for fastest lap at the 1951 Belgian Grand Prix despite finishing 9th.

So there it is. Juan Manuel Fangio scored points in every world championship Grand Prix he finished.

Beat that.

Spoiler

Luigi Fagioli matches it. He entered 7 races, finishing on the podium in 6 of them and retiring from one of them. A podium in all of his finishes. But with just 7 entries, there must be a contextual caveat for statistical significance.

Likewise, Dorino Serafini only entered one race and finished 2nd in a shared drive with Alberto Ascari. Serafini was running outside of the points before Ascari took over his car.

 

[Dotini]

So there it is. Juan Manuel Fangio scored points in every world championship Grand Prix he finished.

Beat that.

Hold my beer.

Rudolf Caracciola participated in 26 races of the 7 seasons of the European Driver's Championship from 1931 to 1939 (it was not held in '33 &'34).
He won three of the 6 championships awarded (no champion was declared in '39)

11 1st places
4 2nd places
3 3rd places
(1 shared 3rd place)
all other races were DNF


Caracciola in 1928

The European Drivers' Championship was an annual competition in auto racing that existed prior to the establishment of the Formula One world championship in 1950. It was established in 1931 and ran until the end of 1939 with a hiatus from 1933–34, and awarded points to drivers based on the results of selected Grand Prix races, the so-called Grandes Épreuves (this term had been used for the most prestigious races since the 1920s; in 1931 and 1935, some significant Grands Prix which did not count towards the European Championship were still called Grandes Épreuves). The championship was discontinued because of the outbreak of World War II in 1939, and no champion was officially declared for the last season.

The championship was run by the Association Internationale des Automobile Clubs Reconnus (AIACR), the forerunner to the FIA who are today's world governing body of motorsport.

No one can beat Fangio's exact record. But Caracciola did a somewhat matching piece of work before WWII. Every race he finished he was on the podium.

 

[Liquid]

@Dotini Of course in Caracciola's day everyone scored points in every race. In the European Championship points were actual penalty points; the winner was the driver with the fewest points.

But a great shout on Caracciola also scoring a podium every time he finished. Considering he was a three time European Champion, his carries more contextual statistical significance compared to Fagioli and Serafino.

 

[daan]

Update: And this really should have occurred to me at the time. Although he did not finish in the points-paying positions, Juan Manuel Fangio did score a point for fastest lap at the 1951 Belgian Grand Prix despite finishing 9th.

So there it is. Juan Manuel Fangio scored points in every world championship Grand Prix he finished.

Beat that.

Spoiler

Luigi Fagioli matches it. He entered 7 races, finishing on the podium in 6 of them and retiring from one of them. A podium in all of his finishes. But with just 7 entries, there must be a contextual caveat for statistical significance.

Likewise, Dorino Serafini only entered one race and finished 2nd in a shared drive with Alberto Ascari. Serafini was running outside of the points before Ascari took over his car.

I was looking to see if there was an American who scored points in every Indy 500 back in the 50s but there doesn't seem to be.

Bill Vukovich only missed out on points once.

 

[Dotini]

I was looking to see if there was an American who scored points in every Indy 500 back in the 50s but there doesn't seem to be.

Bill Vukovich only missed out on points once.

The Indy 500 scored points for the World Championship from1950 through 1960. It's an incredibly tough race to finish well due to its speed (sustained high rpm), great distance, ambient heat and 33 competing racers.

By my count:
Jim Rathmann scored points in 6 Indy 500's, 1st, 3 2nds, 5th, and 2 fastest laps. He accumulated a total of 29 championship points.
Sam Hanks scored in 4 500's, 1st, 2nd and 2 3rds
Bill Vukovich scored points in 4 races, 2 wins and two only for fastest lap.
Jimmy Bryan finished 3 times in the points, 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Tony Bettenhausen scored in 4 500's, never winning.
Paul Russo finished 4 times in the points, including 2 shared drives and a fastest lap, never winning.
Jack McGrath finished 3 time in the points, never winning.
Duane Carter finished 3 times in the points, never winning.
Johnny Thomson finished 3 times in the points, never winning.

Rathmann dominating at Monza

While Rathmann’s win at Indianapolis to kick off the 1960s is what made him famous, he had already won Indy car races at arguably more fearsome tracks. Rathmann was the winner of the 1958 “Race of Two Worlds” (also known as the 500 Miglia di Monza/500 Miles of Monza) an event staged on a 2.64-mile banked oval at Monza, Italy that featured Indy cars and modified Formula 1 and sports cars.

Lap speeds exceeded 176 mph on Monza’s high banking, some 30 mph faster than the pole speed at Indianapolis. Rathmann won all three 63-lap heats as the more powerful American cars dominated the proceedings. Rathmann’s speed over the total 500 mile was 166.7 mph, a figure that would not be exceeded at the Indianapolis 500 until 1986!

The car Rathmann drove to victory in Italy is on display at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Hall of Fame Museum. Yet there was an even faster oval track that Rathmann soon also mastered: the brand new Daytona International Speedway, where USAC staged an Indy car doubleheader in April 1959.