MR Corvette C8 - General Discussion

[Sick Cylinder]

Even family sedans can do that these days.

That link takes me to a Tesla!

I remember when sub 6 seconds was a supercar - an Aston Martin managed 5.7 and that was top of the tree!

 

[Tornado]

@Danoff

It's a semantic & classification nightmare, for sure. I'm gonna do a classification tree to try to rationalize it.

Performance Automobile

Sports Car - Purpose built for performance with minimal compromise

Roadster (MX-5, Z4, MR-S)
Sports Car (GT86, 370z, Base Corvette, 911)

Exotic Sports Car (Spyker C8 - probably not many in this category)​

Super Sports Car (High performance Corvette, Viper, Lotus Esprit, NSX, GT-R, 911 Turbo)

Exotic Super Sports Car (V8 Ferraris 308-488, V10 Lamborghinis, Most Mclarens, etc)​

General Performance Car - Performance oriented cars tailored towards usability

Muscle Car (Charger, Chevelle)
Pony Car (Mustang, Camaro)

Super Pony Car (Shelby, ZL1 Hellcat)

Drag Pony Car (Demon, Super Snake)​

Executive Performance Car (M3, AMG C Class, etc)

Super Saloon (M5)​

Coupe (Prelude, etc) Functionally Extinct
Hot Hatch (Gti)

Super Hot Hatch (Civic Type R)
Hot Mini Hatch (Yaris GRMN, Swift Sport)​

Grand Touring Car (Q60, Lexus RC, etc)

Exotic Grand Touring Car (Aston Martin DB11, AMG-GT)

Exotic Super Grand Touring Car (812, SLR)​

Supercar - Purpose built to be the highest level for it's era

Supercar (Countach, F50, Enzo, Mclaren F1, etc)

Hypercar (Veyron - Cant think of anything else I would categorize in this level)​

^This is hardly exhaustive.

So yeah, a C8 is probably not a supercar. It could potentially be a super sports car. So maybe we can say the C8 differs from the C7 by democratizing the aesthetics of exotic cars. Or something.

​

What if it's mid engine and really fast looking, but powered by an Iron Duke?

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff

It's a semantic & classification nightmare, for sure. I'm gonna do a classification tree to try to rationalize it.

Performance Automobile

Sports Car - Purpose built for performance with minimal compromise

Roadster (MX-5, Z4, MR-S)
Sports Car (GT86, 370z, Base Corvette, 911)

Exotic Sports Car (Spyker C8 - probably not many in this category)​

Super Sports Car (High performance Corvette, Viper, Lotus Esprit, NSX, GT-R, 911 Turbo)

Exotic Super Sports Car (V8 Ferraris 308-488, V10 Lamborghinis, Most Mclarens, etc)​

General Performance Car - Performance oriented cars tailored towards usability

Muscle Car (Charger, Chevelle)
Pony Car (Mustang, Camaro)

Super Pony Car (Shelby, ZL1 Hellcat)

Drag Pony Car (Demon, Super Snake)​

Executive Performance Car (M3, AMG C Class, etc)

Super Saloon (M5)​

Coupe (Prelude, etc) Functionally Extinct
Hot Hatch (Gti)

Super Hot Hatch (Civic Type R)
Hot Mini Hatch (Yaris GRMN, Swift Sport)​

Grand Touring Car (Q60, Lexus RC, etc)

Exotic Grand Touring Car (Aston Martin DB11, AMG-GT)

Exotic Super Grand Touring Car (812, SLR)​

Supercar - Purpose built to be the highest level for it's era

Supercar (Countach, F50, Enzo, Mclaren F1, etc)

Hypercar (Veyron - Cant think of anything else I would categorize in this level)​

^This is hardly exhaustive.

So yeah, a C8 is probably not a supercar. It could potentially be a super sports car. So maybe we can say the C8 differs from the C7 by democratizing the aesthetics of exotic cars. Or something.

​

In the 60s, apparently supercar referred to muscle cars (at least in the US). The 1969 AMC S/C Rambler's model name includes S/C for supercar.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

What if it's mid engine and really fast looking, but powered by an Iron Duke?

Thankfully my tree is somewhat agnostic about absolute performance. If it's cheap and common: Sports car. If it's rare: Exotic Sports Car.

Was there some old Mosler I'm forgetting about that was Iron Duke powered?

 

[TexRex]

Muscle Car (Charger, Chevelle)
Pony Car (Mustang, Camaro)

I appreciate this distinction.

In the 60s, apparently supercar referred to muscle cars (at least in the US). The 1969 AMC S/C Rambler's SC/Rambler model name includes S/C SC for supercar.

👍

Was there some old Mosler I'm forgetting about that was Iron Duke powered?

I may be mistaken, but I suspect he was referring to the Fiero.

 

[GTV0819]

Car could've been $70,000 and it'd still likely have its first year orders filled. It's a radical new design for a timeless classic that's been touted for a number of years ("But when!?"), much like the Supra.

This will put a lot of ease on GM for the next year as reviews come out and highlight any criticisms for them to build upon.

Though there's no top of the line ZR1 yet in the lineup. I am wondering if its price tag will costs the same as the outgoing C7 ZR1 or maybe a little more than that.

 

[mustafur]

If this Price point is correct, does this make Toyotas experiment with the Supra Look silly?

The Supra is similar price to this but it's Front engine has no where near the engine performance and was done with a shared platform for cost reasons.

The most logical explanation would be that they Expect to sell more C8s so they can explain the cost or they will sell the cheaper models at a loss or break even?

 

[Danoff]

The Supra is similar price to this but it's Front engine has no where near the engine performance and was done with a shared platform for cost reasons.

Toyotas usually cost more than Chevys.

 

[mustafur]

Toyotas usually cost more than Chevys.

Is brand tax still a thing?

I mean that Corvette looks alot more expensive to make then the Supra does.

 

[05XR8]

I think it will sell well here. i was surprised with the Mustang as most cars people buy, are 4 door cars. I thought the coupe would die. I'm seeing more Camaros. Saw a convertible recently. So, if people are willing to buy those at $90k prices, another $70k might be a bargain here. Still less than a GT-R(again, over here).

 

[mustafur]

I think it will sell well here. i was surprised with the Mustang as most cars people buy, are 4 door cars. I thought the coupe would die. I'm seeing more Camaros. Saw a convertible recently. So, if people are willing to buy those at $90k prices, another $70k might be a bargain here. Still less than a GT-R(again, over here).

No doubt it will sell but it's alot more expensive here then America, people will have to leverage their mortgage more for these purchases lol.

Similar price to an M3/4 or C63 so I can see this car being everywhere to be honest.

 

[McLaren]

Though there's no top of the line ZR1 yet in the lineup. I am wondering if its price tag will costs the same as the outgoing C7 ZR1 or maybe a little more than that.

Hard to say. The outgoing ZR1 did the most it could with its platform, and was basically just done to send the C7 (& the Vette's FR layout) off into the sunset on a 1-year production line. Given the new platform, it could open a range of possibilities for the ZR1 to go. Right now, I'd wager it's near impossible to say. That particular model is likely a good years away and who knows what the competition will be bringing in those years coming for GM to plan against. It could start around $125,000 like the C7, but I doubt it.

My guess just off the tongue, $140,000 bare minimum.

If this Price point is correct, does this make Toyotas experiment with the Supra Look silly?

The Supra is similar price to this but it's Front engine has no where near the engine performance and was done with a shared platform for cost reasons.

The most logical explanation would be that they Expect to sell more C8s so they can explain the cost or they will sell the cheaper models at a loss or break even?

Hindsight is 20/20. But, nobody knew what C8 was going to list for, so no, it wasn't silly.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I do wonder if GM is pricing in quite a long production run into this $59.9k price. Even counting the obvious parts sharing and carry-over engine, it's hard for me to believe that they are leaving much margin for themselves at that price. Leads me to some theories, all, some, or none of which could be accurate:

-C8 will either be in production for a long time or the C9 will borrow heavily from it's development (If I'm not mistaken, this happened with the C5)
-Base C8 will be fairly stripped down and options will be pricey
-Base C8 will be difficult to actually purchase (like $35k Model 3 Tesla)
-C8 will see periodic price increases
-C8 platform may be used for a more expensive Cadillac halo car (very unlikely, but it's not completely unprecedented)

 

[GTV0819]

Hard to say. The outgoing ZR1 did the most it could with its platform, and was basically just done to send the C7 (& the Vette's FR layout) off into the sunset on a 1-year production line. Given the new platform, it could open a range of possibilities for the ZR1 to go. Right now, I'd wager it's near impossible to say. That particular model is likely a good years away and who knows what the competition will be bringing in those years coming for GM to plan against. It could start around $125,000 like the C7, but I doubt it.

My guess just off the tongue, $140,000 bare minimum.

If that's going to be true, then that $140k price tag for the new C8 ZR1 would still be well below 1/3 of the Ford GT's $450k premium price tag, which I think has just recently increased ever since.

The possible $15k premium over the previous ZR1 doesn't seem to be bad at all, especially considering the radical layout change and more so if it will have a more powerful, unique engine on it.

 

[McLaren]

I do wonder if GM is pricing in quite a long production run into this $59.9k price. Even counting the obvious parts sharing and carry-over engine, it's hard for me to believe that they are leaving much margin for themselves at that price. Leads me to some theories, all, some, or none of which could be accurate:

-C8 will either be in production for a long time or the C9 will borrow heavily from it's development (If I'm not mistaken, this happened with the C5)
-Base C8 will be fairly stripped down and options will be pricey
-Base C8 will be difficult to actually purchase (like $35k Model 3 Tesla)
-C8 will see periodic price increases
-C8 platform may be used for a more expensive Cadillac halo car (very unlikely, but it's not completely unprecedented)

I would guess 3 & 4 are the most likely. The C8s built so far and shipping to dealers undoubtedly will have certain options like Nav./Premium packages built in, probably pushing them around $65,000 starting. So, you'll likely have to convince your Chevrolet dealer to place in an order for a base car, and right now, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a tiny fraction of the first year run that will be ordered with nothing on them; I'm sure dealers will push owners to get at least wheels or nav. if need be. The base car is not really a looker compared to the optioned out examples we've seen either, but that's an industry tactic for a reason, so no fault there.

The car will definitely see periodic price increase. In 2013, the C7 base price was listed at $51,995. At the end of its run, it is now $55,900. Not bad for 5 years considering it'll likely receive some standard improvements after a couple years.

If that's going to be true, then that $140k price tag for the new C8 ZR1 would still be well below 1/3 of the Ford GT's $450k premium price tag, which I think has just recently increased than that.

The possible $15k premium over the previous ZR1 doesn't seem to be bad, especially considering the layout and more so if it will have a more powerful, unique engine on it.

The Ford GT though, has a benefit most cars don't. There's a huge demand for them and Ford gets to pick its owners. That model's heritage is a big reason Ford can ask such a high price in addition to performance. It's a page out of Ferrari's How To Sell Anything handbook.

By the time the ZR1 arrives, the Ford GT production will likely be done and Ford won't be bothered the ZR1 rivals it. The GT production would be close to ending anyway if they hadn't extended it for new buyers, so even if a ZR1 launches in say, 2022, the GT will be 6 by then.

 

[Joey D]

Was there some old Mosler I'm forgetting about that was Iron Duke powered?

The Mosler Consulier had a Chrysler 2.2 Turbo that came out of the hot version of the Dodge Spirit.

 

[GTV0819]

The Ford GT though, has a benefit most cars don't. There's a huge demand for them and Ford gets to pick its owners. That model's heritage is a big reason Ford can ask such a high price in addition to performance. It's a page out of Ferrari's How To Sell Anything handbook.

And for that reason, I think it is still as prestigious as ever.

Come few years or one of these days, maybe the new C8 Corvette will probably outnumber the GT, which came out 3 years ago and also still looks fresh as it is since then.

 

[McLaren]

And for that reason, I think it is still as prestigious as ever.

Come few years or one of these days, maybe the new C8 Corvette will probably outnumber the GT, which came out 3 years ago and also still looks fresh as it is since then.

If the reports about the sold out allocations for the year are true, it probably already has. The Ford GT is likely going to end around 400-500 units as they originally slotted 250 cars for 2017-2018, and will end production around a year from now.

 

[GTV0819]

If the reports about the sold out allocations for the year are true, it probably already has. The Ford GT is likely going to end around 400-500 units as they originally slotted 250 cars for 2017-2018, and will end production around a year from now.

So it's going to be like the Lexus LFA, the last Viper or any other supercars with a short time production once that happens.

 

[mustafur]

Hard to say. The outgoing ZR1 did the most it could with its platform, and was basically just done to send the C7 (& the Vette's FR layout) off into the sunset on a 1-year production line. Given the new platform, it could open a range of possibilities for the ZR1 to go. Right now, I'd wager it's near impossible to say. That particular model is likely a good years away and who knows what the competition will be bringing in those years coming for GM to plan against. It could start around $125,000 like the C7, but I doubt it.

My guess just off the tongue, $140,000 bare minimum.


Hindsight is 20/20. But, nobody knew what C8 was going to list for, so no, it wasn't silly.

So it's going to be like the Lexus LFA, the last Viper or any other supercars with a short time production once that happens.

The Ford GT was super Limited Numbers hard to compare it to anything.

 

[gtpierre]

And yet, people flock to Ferrari, which hasn't had a decent looking car in what? 20 years?

Woah. Just Woah. I could understand people not liking some of the recent ferrari models, but now this is just screaming "I have poor taste and I'm proud of it"

So the C8 should be fine for them, then, since a DCT isn't an automatic.

My bad, I thought I read somewhere it was auto.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

In the 60s, apparently supercar referred to muscle cars (at least in the US). The 1969 AMC S/C Rambler's model name includes S/C for supercar.

For the Rambler SC the 500 homologation examples became known as supercars, but S/C normally referred to a Street Competition variant - typically a road legal car which was more track focussed e.g. the unsold 427 Cobra's which were originally intended for racing were road equipped and sold as S/C models.

 

[Danoff]

For the Rambler SC the 500 homologation examples became known as supercars, but S/C normally referred to a Street Competition variant - typically a road legal car which was more track focussed e.g. the unsold 427 Cobra's which were originally intended for racing were road equipped and sold as S/C models.

To give it a proper sendoff, and possibly to acknowledge the role the American had played in kicking off AMC’s new performance image, the company turned to Hurst Performance Products to use AMX pieces to produce the hottest performing Rambler ever, the SC/Rambler—SC meaning “Super Car,” and the whole thing usually spoken as “scrambler.”

 

[TexRex]

Woah. Just Woah. I could understand people not liking some of the recent ferrari models, but now this is just screaming "I have poor taste and I'm proud of it"

 

[Joey D]

Woah. Just Woah. I could understand people not liking some of the recent ferrari models, but now this is just screaming "I have poor taste and I'm proud of it"

Are modern Ferraris an incredible piece of kit, packed with technology, capable of awesome performance, and arguably some of the best sports/supercars out there? Absolutely. Are they also hideous? Why yes, yes they are.

So just to clear this up, I don't dislike really any Ferrari. I just think the designs are terrible, overdone, and really needlessly busy. I'm not unique in thinking this either.

 

[raven214]

My bad, I thought I read somewhere it was auto.

Honest question here: what exactly are the transmission options for the C8 with regards to manual versus automatic? I've read, repeatedly, that it "is not offering a manual transmission", and yet it has paddle shifters. So is it truly an automatic-only that you can sort of override into selecting a gear like I can in my passenger car, or does it have true manual shifting via the paddle shifters and people are just upset that there's no gear shifter "stick"?

 

[TexRex]

Honest question here: what exactly are the transmission options for the C8 with regards to manual versus automatic? I've read, repeatedly, that it "is not offering a manual transmission", and yet it has paddle shifters. So is it truly an automatic-only that you can sort of override into selecting a gear like I can in my passenger car, or does it have true manual shifting via the paddle shifters and people are just upset that there's no gear shifter "stick"?

Yes.

It's a DCT. In terms of components, it [likely] has much more in common with a manual transmission than an automatic, but it lacks any mechanical link between driver input and gear change, instead relying on computer control that can be overridden by the driver telling it when to shift.

It's also worth noting that paddle shifters are by no means exclusive to proper manual transmissions*, and even my Acura with its actual automatic transmission has them.

Oh and people are upset for myriad reasons.

*Edit: I'd say they're virtually [if not actually] nonexistent there, with paddles simply sending a signal to control components.

 

[gtpierre]

Are modern Ferraris an incredible piece of kit, packed with technology, capable of awesome performance, and arguably some of the best sports/supercars out there? Absolutely. Are they also hideous? Why yes, yes they are.

So just to clear this up, I don't dislike really any Ferrari. I just think the designs are terrible, overdone, and really needlessly busy. I'm not unique in thinking this either.

I would understand this critics if it was about the recent ferraris... but from the last 20 years ?
599, california, F12, 458 etc were all quite "simple" designs. The weird angular overdone, complicated, busy, spaceship-like shapes are post 2012 or so, and this kind of terrible design is pretty much the hallmark of the C8.

 

[Dave A]

Are modern Ferraris an incredible piece of kit, packed with technology, capable of awesome performance, and arguably some of the best sports/supercars out there? Absolutely. Are they also hideous? Why yes, yes they are.

So just to clear this up, I don't dislike really any Ferrari. I just think the designs are terrible, overdone, and really needlessly busy. I'm not unique in thinking this either.

That's certainly true of some modern Ferrari's but not all, IMO of course. There's a silver Ferrari 812 tdf I see round and about and that's stunning in the metal, it has so much more presence in person than a picture suggests. But yes, a lot of modern Ferrari's are overly busy and I have been very critical of the way the C8 looks (I still am), but perhaps if I actually see one some of the detail and angles will make more sense than in a picture.

The way I see it though, I wouldn't buy an ugly car sports/supercar unless that car was a statement. A Ferrari is a statement, even if it's one of the uglier ones it has massive snob factor which the C8 can't come close to competing with. It will be ridiculously fast for it's price I'm sure, and I'm sure becuase of it's price it will sell very well, but I don't think it will take a single sale away from Ferrari.

 

[Dylan]