My obsession with the Nordschleife.

[psavi]

In the video you can see his cornerspeeds in most right handers, they are in km/h though. The 918 isn't in the game, but the apex speeds look very fast for SH to me. You can probably do them in game, but you will be sliding those corners at the very limit while the 918 still looks comfortable at those speeds. You can also see the speed at the end of the straight, almost. It doesn't even reach 300 km/h at the bridge, with 900bhp. The ingame McLaren 12C does like 340-350 km/h there, while the real one was 293 km/h in Sport Auto Supertest. So I think the time difference is coming from the need to brake much earlier and the much lower top speed in real life. The lateral grip in corners of SH seems worse than real life though.

Btw: The "Supertest" from the German "Sport Auto" has some cornerspeeds of the real 12C too: http://www.sportauto.de/supertest/m...ing-ein-nuerburgring-star-4052698.html?show=2

[Edit: Those cornerspeeds seem very doable with SH, so it might be the 918 cornering so well. The GT6 12C is too good imho too.]

First of all, thank you for that link. I didn't know Sport Auto kept a list available online with their lap times. 👍

I do agree that the drag in GT6 is too low for most cars and that the 12C seems too good to be true in game. But I disagree that the reduced drag will create great disparity between virtual and real lap times. Drag affects only the acceleration rate (and downforce, off course, but let's suppose that is correct) and it will only produce relevant differences above 200 kph, maybe 250 kph. In a lap in Nordschleife, you don't stay above those speeds for too long except for Döttinger Höhe, and that will only account for a difference of 3 or 4 seconds tops on a fast car.

👍 To me, two of the biggest physics problems are the lack of drag and the lack of gravity... and those affect everything we perceive as tire grip or weight transfer or braking distance... If I can find it I'll post here - I saw this awesome video that was truly a revelation on the gravity especially, touring cars running the Nordschleife and all these killer angles of them going airborne and then slamming hard on the pavement almost instantly. You know how often I've gone for a rising apex while *being careful about my speed and line* and the car still takes off, and is in the Armco before the tires fully regain grip. Moments like that are making my neighbors think I'm a nut case (when I shout "🤬 B.S.!!!")..

As much as I enjoy Cape Ring and the ridiculous air time that one crest gives you, in reality gravity hurls you toward the ground with the acceleration of a Bugatti Veyron.

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. Gravity? How hard can it be to model a force field that attracts every object with the same acceleration towards the Earth? I think even PD could not screw this up unless they intended too. But they are on a mission to push the virtual divide, why would they mismodel gravity? That makes no sense.

Until now, I have not seen anything that pointed towards gravity being a problem.

I'm with @Stotty till death on this one, Sports Hards provide too much grip even to supercars.

 

[Stotty]

I think the consensus in GT5 was, SH have the realistic longitudinal grip while CS the realistic lateral grip.

I wouldn’t disagree with that 👍

But with the Supertest lap from Sport Auto you have to take into account other factors: The driver, Horst von Sauma, does 1 warm up lap, then 2 quick laps. The goal is to do a save lap, to show what is accessable for ordinary drivers. A GT hotlap time on the other hand will usually be the result of quite some trying, where every failed attempt would in reality get you to awake in hospital and destroy the car. I think this already makes a difference of 10-20 sec over the lap. In game I could drive the 918 way quicker I believe, just from going more risk and using the constant grip of the track to go closer to the limit.

Horst is a VERY experienced driver at the ‘Ring, and I’ve never met a competitive driver who won’t push a car as hard as he feels comfortable with if he's only got 3 laps… I would think 99.99% of ‘ordinary drivers’ would get nowhere near Horst after days of trying with professional tuition

For my GT6 'Ring laps, I run 1 out lap to get a feel for the car and 1 flying lap. Sometimes I need a few re-starts to find the right speed/right gear on the faster corners (eg; Flugplatz, Schwedenkreuz, Klostertal), but I'm not running lap after lap after lap chasing the last fractions of a second... if I run a clean lap 2nd lap with no major mistakes, I post it and move to a different car

I get the fear factor isn’t there in the game, but similarly, the physical clues you get in a real car (G forces, steering feel etc), aren’t there in the game. Though you would still need to be both a very good driver and very competent on the ‘Ring to run the same lap in real life, everything else being equal!

The McLaren MP4-12C also seems too good in GT6. In GT5 it seemed worse than the real car, about 1 tyre grade worse. In GT6 my impression when comparing to real life data is it's 1 tyre grade too good now (which is reflected in 20pp more compared to GT5).

It is too good – both its straight line performance and its grip. But you only need to look at the lap times in the thread linked in my signature to see most cars are like that - @Sutuki has a sub 7 minute lap in a stock 458.

All cars to me feel faster on SH tyres than I’d expect them to be.

I’ll try and do the RL vs GT6 MP4 analysis tonight over a bottle of wine… I’m now really interested to see where the main differences are 👍

 

[FormulaKimball]

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. Gravity? How hard can it be to model a force field that attracts every object with the same acceration towards the Earth? I think even PD could not screw this up unless they intended too. But they are on a mission to push the virtual divide, why would they mismodel gravity? That makes no sense.

Until now, I have not seen anything that pointed towards gravity being a problem.

Famous last words, "how hard can it be"... This is PD after all, one could easily joke that they are the Top Gear of "real driving simulators"...

I'm surprised though, you haven't noticed in the many replays people have posted showing strange physics behavior that there's a serious problem with gravitational force in GT5 and GT6? Look at those DTM videos I posted as well Those cars are two wheels off the ground around a lot of corners if they touched the kerbs, yet they seem not at all in danger of rolling over. In GT6 the cars roll over quite easily in the same situation.

 

[Stotty]

Here's the comparison between @Sutuki GT6 lap in the MP4-12C (6'48 - stock car, sports hard tyres, oil change, no aids, ABS1) and Horst's lap for Sportauto (7'28 - P Zero Corsa tyres - road legal track day tyre).

Some of the comparisons might not be directly the same as it's difficult to know exactly where Sportauto measured the speed, but should be correct for most Sectors... speeds are in MPH.

Sectors Type

GT6 Horst Delta​

Hatzenbach Minimum corner speed

109 94 15​

Flugplatz Minimum corner speed

117 102 15​

Schwedenkreuz Maximum speed on straight

193 165 28​

Aremberg Minimum corner speed

63 65 -2​

Fuchsrohre Maximum speed on straight

183 155 28​

Metzgesfeld Minimum corner speed

112 100 12​

Ex-Muhle Minimum corner speed

71 71 0​

Bergwerk Minimum corner speed

62 63 -1​

Kesselchen Maximum speed on straight

171 155 16​

Klostertal 1 Minimum corner speed

115 104 11​

Klostertal 2 Minimum corner speed

54 59 -5​

Hole Acht Minimum corner speed

74 69 5​

Brunnchen Minimum corner speed

77 65 12​

Pflantzgarten Maximum speed before crest

136 122 14​

Anfahrt Schwalbenschwantz Max speed before braking

160 136 24​

Schwalbenschwantz Minimum corner speed

66 57 9​

Kalgenkopf Minimum corner speed

87 84 3​

Dottinger Hohe Speed at bridge

210 181
29​

It's clear that both straight line speed and medium to high speed corner apex speeds are a long way out, with the only close speeds being in the slowest corners.

From this, it looks like SH tyres in GT6 are too grippy to be MPS/Corsa, but to be sure, the results would need triangulating with another couple of cars on Cup tyres, and for better integrity, also against cars not running Cup type tyres.

Track map for reference (ignore the GP section)

Apologies for rubbish formatting - it looked much better before I posted it!!

 

[psavi]

Famous last words, "how hard can it be"... This is PD after all, one could easily joke that they are the Top Gear of "real driving simulators"...

I'm surprised though, you haven't noticed in the many replays people have posted showing strange physics behavior that there's a serious problem with gravitational force in GT5 and GT6? Look at those DTM videos I posted as well Those cars are two wheels off the ground around a lot of corners if they touched the kerbs, yet they seem not at all in danger of rolling over. In GT6 the cars roll over quite easily in the same situation.

You mean the ones where people flip the car forward or roll over the cars while hitting a kerb? I've seen some. I've even rolled over my car a couple of times in the left hander corner after Fuchröhre and once at Flugplatz. I'm still not convinced that it is a problem with gravity.

Like I said, gravity is too easy to model, it is almost impossible to get it wrong. It seems to me more like a center of mass position problem, suspensions that do not break, simplified suspension travels, suspension's roll centers and people using tires with too much grip.

Horst is a VERY experienced driver at the ‘Ring, and I’ve never met a competitive driver who won’t push a car as hard as he feels comfortable with if he's only got 3 laps… I would think 99.99% of ‘ordinary drivers’ would get nowhere near Horst after days of trying with professional tuition

I do think that Horst drives at a safer pace. If you compare laps done by him with some done by manufacturers (where they really want to prove that their cars are the best) you will find a typical difference of about 10 to 15 seconds.

For my GT6 'Ring laps, I run 1 out lap to get a feel for the car and 1 flying lap. Sometimes I need a few re-starts to find the right speed/right gear on the faster corners (eg; Flugplatz, Schwedenkreuz, Klostertal), but I'm not running lap after lap after lap chasing the last fractions of a second... if I run a clean lap 2nd lap with no major mistakes, I post it and move to a different car

I do the same thing except for the out lap to get a feel of the car and that I don't post my times. I usually get used to it as I go with some restarts to find those speeds.

As I promised before, here goes the video of me driving the McLaren F1 in Comfort Mediums. Details on the video description on Youtube.

 

[Stotty]

As I promised before, here goes the video of me driving the McLaren F1 in Comfort Mediums. Details on the video description on Youtube.

Far more representative of what an F1 would be like round the 'Ring in real life than on SH tyres... Very impressive driving 👍

 

[Z1-AV69]

Here's the comparison between @Sutuki GT6 lap in the MP4-12C (6'48 - stock car, sports hard tyres, oil change, no aids, ABS1) and Horst's lap for Sportauto (7'28 - P Zero Corsa tyres - road legal track day tyre).

Wow, awesome work, thank you very much! Hoping the wine was good too?

I agree with your conclusion it's the high speed cornering which is off, can't find another convincing scheme. Fascinating though that Horst was faster in some corners, didn't expect that.

 

[Stotty]

Wow, awesome work, thank you very much! Hoping the wine was good too?

I agree with your conclusion it's the high speed cornering which is off, can't find another convincing scheme. Fascinating though that Horst was faster in some corners, didn't expect that.

On the 2nd bottle now

Cornering speed in the slower stuff could just be down to taking a slightly different line - concentrating on a faster exit speed, or differences in trail braking... but looks like slow speed grip is spot on, but high speed grip is way off!

 

[Z1-AV69]

On the 2nd bottle now

Cornering speed in the slower stuff could just be down to taking a slightly different line - concentrating on a faster exit speed, or differences in trail braking... but looks like slow speed grip is spot on, but high speed grip is way off!

I'm too bad at physics. It sounds like a problem of inertia in relation to tyre friction at high speeds? Is here an expert that would be so kind to teach me something?

 

[psavi]

Far more representative of what an F1 would be like round the 'Ring in real life than on SH tyres... Very impressive driving 👍

Thank you, man. It means a lot coming from you.

 

[Stotty]

I'm too bad at physics. It sounds like a problem of inertia in relation to tyre friction at high speeds? Is here an expert that would be so kind to teach me something?

I'm not an expert either when it comes to physics modelling... I just know how a car should feel!

Thank you, man. It means a lot coming from you.

You're too generous

Having seen how you coped with the F1 on CM's, you should come try some laps on the Nurburgring lap times leaderboard (link in my sig)... I think you'll be competitive!!

My current challenge is getting a stock Huayra round in under 7 mins.

 

[psavi]

I'm too bad at physics. It sounds like a problem of inertia in relation to tyre friction at high speeds? Is here an expert that would be so kind to teach me something?

There are two things to consider actually when you compare Sutuki's lap to Horst's lap:

1- People competing in lap boards here in GTP tend to use much more agressive and riskier lines, using too much of the grass to be considered realistic in my opinion.

2- High speed corners are the most likely to kill if you get it wrong, so my guess is that those must be the ones where Horst is more conservative. That might explain the difference in the high speed grip.

Another possibility is that downforce is stronger in game, although its unlikely.

You're too generous

Having seen how you coped with the F1 on CM's, you should come try some laps on the Nurburgring lap times leaderboard (link in my sig)... I think you'll be competitive!!

My current challenge is getting a stock Huayra round in under 7 mins.

As much as I would like to post some times there, watching replays from @mike_gt3 make me realize that my times would be beaten sooner or later as I'm not very good at trail braking and I can't be that agressive in the kerbs and grass.

I'm currently on a quest to drive all road cars around Nordschleife, with what I consider realistic tires for each car, always below Sports Hards. Trying competitive times for the board would take too much commitment to one car, which I'm not ready to do.

I thank you again and appreciate your invite, but I'll have to decline.

 

[Grayfox]

James may hates you all.

Because you love the nordscheife

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

My personal experience is that with my own car IRL I managed to stop the crono at 9:30, sometimes quicker, sometimes slower, because of traffic and my own skills as I'm not a pro. My car is an Ibiza Cupra 6L 1.8 20VT with Michelin pilot sport 3 in the rear axle and Michelin pilot exalto in the front, 4 piston caliper AP Racing brakes in the front axle too. H&R springs and Bilstein B6 shock absorbers. To get that time I had some little slides in the most known corners (just a few), in a way that I could manage the direction of the car, but with the tires starting to moan. The same with the braking, looking for the limit but in the safe side. To reproduce this in the game I have to purchase fully customizable suspension, turn the values to a very hard setup, and comfort mediums. But, to be honest, I think that if I have to look for the real feeling that I have with my own car in the ring something between medium and soft will be the most accurate. Curiously, with the standard brakes I have the same braking that IRL with the 4 piston calipers.

Of course, it's easier to get a lap searching for the limits of car and track in the game, but in terms of feeling I think that comfort mediums is the right choice to match my actual car config. As I said, reproduce the same times is difficult in the game, because is hard to push the limits IRL when you have to go home with the same car.

My point is that the stock setup for my car is not accurate. They missed the tire choice, and the suspension is extremely soft. Also, the brakes were to strong compared with the stock ones. On the other side, I got the exact top speed of the car, 229 km/h, and in some quick areas of the Nordschleife I got the same speed as IRL.

I hope that I have contributed to your excellent posts with a different POV.

 

[Stotty]

There are two things to consider actually when you compare Sutuki's lap to Horst's lap:

1- People competing in lap boards here in GTP tend to use much more aggressive and riskier lines, using too much of the grass to be considered realistic in my opinion.

2- High speed corners are the most likely to kill if y
ou get it wrong, so my guess is that those must be the ones where Horst is more conservative. That might explain the difference in the high speed grip.

Another possibility is that downforce is stronger in game, although its unlikely.

@Sutuki replay is available to download here...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-nürburgring-lap-time-board.294583/page-9#post-9326865

1. As you'll see, there's no aggressive use of the kerbs, and certainly no use of the grass, even as a way to narrow the apex with the inside wheels... it's 100% clean by any measure 👍

2. Agreed; though the apex speed differences are still huge!

As much as I would like to post some times there, watching replays from @mike_gt3 make me realize that my times would be beaten sooner or later as I'm not very good at trail braking and I can't be that agressive in the kerbs and grass.

I'm currently on a quest to drive all road cars around Nordschleife, with what I consider realistic tires for each car, always below Sports Hards. Trying competitive times for the board would take too much commitment to one car, which I'm not ready to do.

I thank you again and appreciate your invite, but I'll have to decline.

The thread isn't really like that.. sure, laps will get beaten every now and again if it's a particularly interesting car to drive, and @mike_gt3 and @Sutuki are proper 'Ring experts. But don't worry abbout there speed, they are really nice guys. Ultimately, there are so many cars in the game that it's much more about finding something YOU like to drive and posting a time for it, and it's not common for times to get hunted down, but like me, you can keep coming back to 'your' cars and improving them

For me, there are only a couple of the times I've posted laps that are anywhere near optimal.. witness Sutuki beating my MP4 lap by 8 seconds when coincidentally running it at the same time

 

[mike_gt3]

I thank you again and appreciate your invite, but I'll have to decline.

Like @Stotty said, we dont hunt laptime, i run cars that havent been ran yet or cars i wanted to try, feel free to post a new lap i will add it , its open to everyone no matter the pace, the first use of that leaderboard is a database to see what car is faster. Trying to beat someone else's time is only a bonus

 

[psavi]

@Sutuki replay is available to download here...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6-nürburgring-lap-time-board.294583/page-9#post-9326865

1. As you'll see, there's no aggressive use of the kerbs, and certainly no use of the grass, even as a way to narrow the apex with the inside wheels... it's 100% clean by any measure 👍

I didn't know that. I'll watch it later. Must be nice to watch if it is as clean as you say.

Like @Stotty said, we dont hunt laptime, i run cars that havent been ran yet or cars i wanted to try, feel free to post a new lap i will add it , its open to everyone no matter the pace, the first use of that leaderboard is a database to see what car is faster. Trying to beat someone else's time is only a bonus

Okay, I promise I'll give it a try any time soon.

 

[tuj]

when I was at the Nurburgring, it was shut down for an hour or so because a motorcyclist got killed before they let us back on track. Its not a forgiving place if you make a mistake. In real life, its fun with a slow, tossable and predicable car, and scary as hell in anything fast.

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

when I was at the Nurburgring, it was shut down for an hour or so because a motorcyclist got killed before they let us back on track. Its not a forgiving place if you make a mistake. In real life, its fun with a slow, tossable and predicable car, and scary as hell in anything fast.

The first time I went there it was closed for 3 hours because a big crash. I did two laps and they closed the circiut again for the rest of the day. 8 cars crashed, included the Ring Taxi. Happily, I had another day to spent there, but that was enough for me to never go again on Sunday. It's like a destruction derby.

 

[dimassa19]

The first time I went there it was closed for 3 the hours because a big crash. I did two laps and they closed the circiut again for the rest of the day. 8 cars crashed, included the Ring Taxi. Happily, I had another day to spent there, but that was enough for me to never go again on Sunday. It's like a destruction derby.

Was not the Taxi of Sabine Schmitz...

 

[IBZ6L20VT]

Was not the Taxi of Sabine Schmitz...

I don't know who was the driver but the Taxi wasn't the trigger, was just involved. Here is one of the piece of news about the item:

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/...on-the-nurburgring-including-bmw-m3-ring-taxi

 

[dimassa19]

I don't know who was the driver but the Taxi wasn't the trigger, was just involved. Here is one of the piece of news about the item:

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/...on-the-nurburgring-including-bmw-m3-ring-taxi

Big crash.

 

[FussyFez]

That crash was bad. Glad everyone kept their lives.

I saw it when it first hit the Internet, surprised no other footage has come up in this time, I know it's not nice to see people's mangled pride and joy, but, that particular incident drew alot of speculation at the time, it would be nice to see what really happened (I know it's documented).

 

[dimassa19]

Michael Krumm 7:18 GTR Nismo with a passenger...

 

[dimassa19]

Michael Krumm 7:18 GTR Nismo with a passenger...

He thought was his brother-in-law.

 

[Stotty]

From my testing to date, thee GTR isn't as fast in GT6 as GT5... Though I haven't put a reaLly good lap down in it yet.

I assume the lap above is BTG (also need to check if Horsts lap is a full one or. BTG).

 

[raven214]

From my testing to date, thee GTR isn't as fast in GT6 as GT5... Though I haven't put a reaLly good lap down in it yet.

I assume the lap above is BTG (also need to check if Horsts lap is a full one or. BTG).

What's BTG?

 

[Thematic]

Bridge to Gantry, tourist run.

 

[Greg330im]

The first time I went there it was closed for 3 hours because a big crash. I did two laps and they closed the circiut again for the rest of the day. 8 cars crashed, included the Ring Taxi. Happily, I had another day to spent there, but that was enough for me to never go again on Sunday. It's like a destruction derby.

was there to that day ... Grey ; french reg ; E30 4 door Mtech1 M3 3L engine now replaced with the E46 in avatar .... the E30 doing the videofilming the aftermatch of the crash is a freind too


BTG = Bridge to Gantry ( that is first bridge on the straight ( as you enter mid straight ) to the gantry at the start of the straight.... )

 

[dimassa19]

From my testing to date, thee GTR isn't as fast in GT6 as GT5... Though I haven't put a reaLly good lap down in it yet.

I assume the lap above is BTG (also need to check if Horsts lap is a full one or. BTG).

Full lap.