My obsession with the Nordschleife.

[FussyFez]

No doubt the Nordschleife is still my favorite course in the series for pure driving, but these days I find myself heading to Bathurst as well when I'm in for a bit of technical driving fun. The top of the mountain is just insane. A run uphill from a tight right into an uphill blind right-hand sweeper, followed by a mad dash through a couple of loose, bumpy left-handers separated by a straight, and then in no time at all you find yourself braking from ridiculous speeds into a tight, downhill chicane... it's that one part of every great track that sends chills down your spine. It's so thrilling because of the stupid speeds you can carry through there, but get it wrong by half an inch and you're in the fence. The only reason I like the Nordschleife more is because it's 13 miles of the same thrills and scares found at Mount Panorama.

I do love bathurst, I couldn't have put it better myself. But, I can't hotlap on my own for too long without feeling like I want the mountain section to be about 6 times longer.

It really is a great track, racing there, on the downhill section especially , is serious stuff.

I'm still yet to find another track I can use solely for a week without getting bored.

 

[Stotty]

I'm still yet to find another track I can use solely for a week without getting bored.

Suzuka and Spa

 

[FussyFez]

Suzuka and Spa

Again, they are great. But still they don't connect with me like the green hell.

I did have a serious fling with spa when it was released on gt5, and suzuka is an old favourite.

 

[bikerbob951]

I too enjoy the 'ring. Did something like 13K miles in GT5, and I'd say about half of those were done on the Nurb. It's an obcession, trying to push hard as possible while obtaining a clean lap. Also really becoming a fan of Ascari.

I particularly enjoy that automakers are using the course as a benchmark for new car development...

 

[JHB434]

I'm assuming he meant Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory.

Okay, Thanks. I've never watched it.

 

[FormulaKimball]

Again, they are great. But still they don't connect with me like the green hell.

I did have a serious fling with spa when it was released on gt5, and suzuka is an old favourite.

I'm with you, mate. Spa would be much more addictive if the old version were in the game along with the new (I miss more corners having no runoff, and the bus stop section was awesome). And Bathurst seemed much longer before I learned it - now it feels like no time at all before you're down the hill again... I love that track though and have repeated some awesome races there with close finishes... Viper GTS-R vs. the LMP cars, oh yeah.

It's too bad so few tracks have the huge elevation changes plus the length and complexity of corner groups. A lot of tracks I like for their difficulty are simply too short for a complete love affair (Laguna, Sonoma, etc). Though I was happy to lap those tracks endlessly when GT4 called for it ... and I certainly miss how often I used to run the 15-lap Nordschleife FGT race.

Last night I did a 2-lap Nordschleife arcade race with the Formula GT and forgot to set the track conditions ... at 6am I barely could see the white lines and rear lights but went for it anyway. Unfortunately the 9 "professional" AI cars were in my rear mirror half way through the first lap, so in some ways I can see why the endurance races have become a bit pointless. Still, I miss the challenge of lapping the field twice within 15 laps, and dealing with handling changes from fuel and tire wear.

 

[FussyFez]

I'm with you, mate. Spa would be much more addictive if the old version were in the game along with the new (I miss more corners having no runoff, and the bus stop section was awesome). And Bathurst seemed much longer before I learned it - now it feels like no time at all before you're down the hill again... I love that track though and have repeated some awesome races there with close finishes... Viper GTS-R vs. the LMP cars, oh yeah.

It's too bad so few tracks have the huge elevation changes plus the length and complexity of corner groups. A lot of tracks I like for their difficulty are simply too short for a complete love affair (Laguna, Sonoma, etc). Though I was happy to lap those tracks endlessly when GT4 called for it ... and I certainly miss how often I used to run the 15-lap Nordschleife FGT race.

Last night I did a 2-lap Nordschleife arcade race with the Formula GT and forgot to set the track conditions ... at 6am I barely could see the white lines and rear lights but went for it anyway. Unfortunately the 9 "professional" AI cars were in my rear mirror half way through the first lap, so in some ways I can see why the endurance races have become a bit pointless. Still, I miss the challenge of lapping the field twice within 15 laps, and dealing with handling changes from fuel and tire wear.

I've just unlocked the S races, so although no real endurance challenge, I'm getting to play with the tyre wear and fuel etc.

Also, being that I normally stick to dry conditions, the wet weather is interesting!

 

[KOGSoldier]

Birds belief is my absolute favorite track too...I just go there with whatever car I want or that I'm into at the moment and drive til my heart is content...most of the time that's a race car or something heavily upgraded...on or offline doesn't matter...waiting for my buddy to get his stats up so we can race there...and yes I'm one of those guys that will throw a race tire on a street car and go turn some laps and I figure why not it's in the game

 

[ProjectWHaT]

Okay, Thanks. I've never watched it.

It's a great show. You should definitely watch it

 

[yaman]

A ruf yellowbird on comfort soft, the nordschleife, and I can just keep going..

 

[xSNAKEx]

Sorry, I have to disagree.

GT6 'Ring times are, for the most part, stupidly fast, and this can't simply be down to how fast cars accelerate and how fast their top speeds are c.f. real life.

Have a look at the Nurburgring lap times leaderboard (link in my signature).

Yesterday, whilst heavily hung over, I ran a 6'56 lap in a stock McLaren MP4-12C on sports hard tyres... took me about 30 mins of trying to get that. Half an hour later, @Sutuki ran a 6'48. @mike_gt3 has run a 6'49 in a stock McLaren F1, and there are a whole heap of cars running GT6 lap times miles faster than they would be capable of in real life.

SH tyres have waaay too much grip for road cars.

Sorry, meant to add...

When testing some weeks ago, I found fitting CM to a Ferrari 458 gave similar lap times at Tsukuba to the real car.

I don't disagree with you on the lap times being stupidly fast. I guess in general you guys are probably right that tyres have too much overall grip, though its difficult to separate tyre grip form anything else in GT6 that make you go faster.

I should explain myself a bit more why I dont "feel" that comfort mediums reflect real world high performance tyres.

Its the progression of grip loss. While in real life I feel you have grip grip grip, then suddenly at the last 90% of maximum grip level you start to loose traction, and the car starts to slip across the track, in GT I feel like the grip loss and floaty/loose feeling starts too much too early. While overall high end grip may be higher than real life allowing you to go faster overall, I feel like the progression isn't natural.
If you watch all the GT6 lap times and then compare them to real world lap times, even if you pick tyres to match real life lap times, you will see the GT6 lap the car is almost in a constant state of slide while the real car will be gripping much more.

Wacth the Porsche spyder lap time for example, how often is that guy floating across the track?

This is a lap of the Nurburgring in near 900bhp Porsche 918 on MPS Cup 2 tyres (equivalent to SH tyres IMO), with a recognised 'Ring expert at the wheel (Marc Lieb)... lap time is 7m 57s and is the current Global production car record.



It's doubtful a McLaren P1 would go 10s faster than this, never mind a stock MP4C-12.

SH tyres have way too much grip for stock road cars.

You mean 6m 57s bro ? 👍 You could probably do 7m 57s in a tuned van

Yea as I've said the car in that video is almost constantly in a state of grip. If you were to match that to a lap in GT6 the Gt6 driver would be sliding around like cray cray crazy. I hope you guys get what I mean. Thats why personally I would rather use gripper tyres and have the acceleration turned down and drag increased to match real world data. As people have said some cars have way too much top speed

 

[ChrisH]

Birds belief is my absolute favorite track too...I just go there with whatever car I want or that I'm into at the moment and drive til my heart is content...most of the time that's a race car or something heavily upgraded...on or offline doesn't matter...waiting for my buddy to get his stats up so we can race there...and yes I'm one of those guys that will throw a race tire on a street car and go turn some laps and I figure why not it's in the game

I think this guy tried to type Nordschleife on his phone

 

[xSNAKEx]

I think this guy tried to type Nordschleife on his phone

No Birds belief is what the locals call it lol.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is a lap of the Nurburgring in near 900bhp Porsche 918 on MPS Cup 2 tyres (equivalent to SH tyres IMO), with a recognised 'Ring expert at the wheel (Marc Lieb)... lap time is 7m 57s and is the current Global production car record.



It's doubtful a McLaren P1 would go 10s faster than this, never mind a stock MP4C-12.

SH tyres have way too much grip for stock road cars.

The one thing that really stands out in this video (besides the fact that he isn't hanging the tail out on every other corner)is the braking difference between GT and real life. In almost every corner he's on the brakes earlier than you would be in the game and brakes or lifts in several places you'd normally take flat out in GT.

 

[Jel44]

I have hundreds if not thousands of laps in TVR Cerbera Speed 12 trying to make it go sub 6. Only got to 6:07 if I remember correctly.

 

[Jel44]

Double posted by accident.

 

[KOGSoldier]

I think this guy tried to type Nordschleife on his phone

Lol yep was on my phone stupid auto type but you know what I meant

 

[HuskyGT]

I love it too. Ever since GT4. And having the 24H track is a real treat. I can't think of any other track were I can have so much fun during a long periods. Other tracks I feel bored after two laps. I can go three laps at the Nurburgring with time and weather change and it's an absolute blast.

There is only one track that has the potential of making me forget the Nurburgring, and that will be that new track in Spain.

 

[BMWcrazy]

Last night I spent 4 hours trying to get all three clean laps in the 24 minutes of Nurburgring with my ZZII.

I managed to shave a minute off my time but I still couldn't do it without running into the grass or the sand pit. I shall try it again tonight.

 

[psavi]

I think he says congratulations you made my list lol.

Seriously though, looking at the video Plidex posted further up of his Mclaren f1 lap, it makes me realise how much I disagree with people who say because gt6 has so much more grippier tyres than in real life, you need to use comfort mediums even on supercars.

Plidex is in a constant state of slide in that video and hes on sports hard! Imagine if he did what people say is realistic and used comfort mediums. It would be like driving on ice.

When you watch for example a real lap of the same car lapping nurburg, they hardly ever break traction. I know they may be going slower, but in gt6 even if you drove at that slower speed you would still be sliding around like crazy.

That is because he is applying to much steering and probably too much throttle. (No offense, Plidex).

Sometime I'll post my lap on a corrected McLaren F1 (corrected gear ratios and weight distribution) with Comfort Mediums. You'll see it is much more convincing.

 

[Z1-AV69]

This is a lap of the Nurburgring in near 900bhp Porsche 918 on MPS Cup 2 tyres (equivalent to SH tyres IMO), with a recognised 'Ring expert at the wheel (Marc Lieb)... lap time is 7m 57s and is the current Global production car record.



It's doubtful a McLaren P1 would go 10s faster than this, never mind a stock MP4C-12.

SH tyres have way too much grip for stock road cars.

In the video you can see his cornerspeeds in most right handers, they are in km/h though. The 918 isn't in the game, but the apex speeds look very fast for SH to me. You can probably do them in game, but you will be sliding those corners at the very limit while the 918 still looks comfortable at those speeds. You can also see the speed at the end of the straight, almost. It doesn't even reach 300 km/h at the bridge, with 900bhp. The ingame McLaren 12C does like 340-350 km/h there, while the real one was 293 km/h in Sport Auto Supertest. So I think the time difference is coming from the need to brake much earlier and the much lower top speed in real life. The lateral grip in corners of SH seems worse than real life though.

Btw: The "Supertest" from the German "Sport Auto" has some cornerspeeds of the real 12C too: http://www.sportauto.de/supertest/m...ing-ein-nuerburgring-star-4052698.html?show=2

[Edit: Those cornerspeeds seem very doable with SH, so it might be the 918 cornering so well. The GT6 12C is too good imho too.]

 

[FormulaKimball]

In the video you can see his cornerspeeds in most right handers, they are in km/h though. The 918 isn't in the game, but the apex speeds look very fast for SH to me. You can probably do them in game, but you will be sliding those corners at the very limit while the 918 still looks comfortable at those speeds. You can also see the speed at the end of the straight, almost. It doesn't even reach 300 km/h at the bridge, with 900bhp. The ingame McLaren 12C does like 340-350 km/h there, while the real one was 293 km/h in Sport Auto Supertest. So I think the time difference is coming from the need to brake much earlier and the much lower top speed in real life. The lateral grip in corners of SH seems worse than real life though.

👍 To me, two of the biggest physics problems are the lack of drag and the lack of gravity... and those affect everything we perceive as tire grip or weight transfer or braking distance... If I can find it I'll post here - I saw this awesome video that was truly a revelation on the gravity especially, touring cars running the Nordschleife and all these killer angles of them going airborne and then slamming hard on the pavement almost instantly. You know how often I've gone for a rising apex while *being careful about my speed and line* and the car still takes off, and is in the Armco before the tires fully regain grip. Moments like that are making my neighbors think I'm a nut case (when I shout "🤬 B.S.!!!")..

As much as I enjoy Cape Ring and the ridiculous air time that one crest gives you, in reality gravity hurls you toward the ground with the acceleration of a Bugatti Veyron.

 

[MrWednesday]

As much as I enjoy Cape Ring and the ridiculous air time that one crest gives you, in reality gravity hurls you toward the ground with the acceleration of a Bugatti Veyron.

In reality, gravity hurls you toward the ground with an acceleration of 32.2 ft/s² (or, if you prefer, 9.8 m/s²).

 

[Stotty]

In the video you can see his cornerspeeds in most right handers, they are in km/h though. The 918 isn't in the game, but the apex speeds look very fast for SH to me. You can probably do them in game, but you will be sliding those corners at the very limit while the 918 still looks comfortable at those speeds. You can also see the speed at the end of the straight, almost. It doesn't even reach 300 km/h at the bridge, with 900bhp. The ingame McLaren 12C does like 340-350 km/h there, while the real one was 293 km/h in Sport Auto Supertest. So I think the time difference is coming from the need to brake much earlier and the much lower top speed in real life. The lateral grip in corners of SH seems worse than real life though.

Btw: The "Supertest" from the German "Sport Auto" has some cornerspeeds of the real 12C too:http://www.sportauto.de/supertest/m...ing-ein-nuerburgring-star-4052698.html?show=2

[Edit: Those cornerspeeds seem very doable with SH, so it might be the 918 cornering so well. The GT6 12C is too good imho too.]

Top speed of the 918 will not be high on the main straight in the video as Lieb used all the battery power over the rest of the lap and they were dry by the time he hit that section… so only running c.700bhp. Plus the 918 is fitted with MPS Cup. Plus the 918 will have much more aero grip than the MP4.

The MP4’s performance is definitely out as it runs c.210mph on the back straight. But it’s not just the top speed that feels out; as I said, the grip levels for braking, mid corner and exit feel mental – the amount of throttle you can use on the exits in 2nd and 3rd gear without fear of spinning is silly. The above article has a 7m28s lap time - The GT6 time is 40s better than that. I have a replay saved of the MP4 at the 'Ring so I'll compare the apex speeds next couple of days when I get chance. I notice the MP4 in that test is on the optional Corsa tyre... which IMO is a SH equivalent in GT6, so it should be a good comparison.

For further evidence of the grip of SH tyres… last night I ran sub 7m30s in a stock NSX Type R. And the peak speed of that car, whilst still fast at c.170mph, is much more in line with reality. I doubt a NSX would break 8 mins in real life even on a Cup/Corsa tyre. The number of corners that require nothing more than a slight throttle lift is just silly, as is the level of traction on the exits – cornering technique is lift, turn the wheel, wait for the car to rotate in to the corner (the NSX does this perfectly), then jump on the throttle well before the apex without any fear of oversteer.

I ran 8’08 in a stock RX8 on comfort softs – which still seems a little on the fast side for a full lap.

I remain pretty convinced that SH tyres have too much grip for road cars.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Top speed of the 918 will not be high on the main straight in the video as Lieb used all the battery power over the rest of the lap and they were dry by the time he hit that section… so only running c.700bhp. Plus the 918 is fitted with MPS Cup. Plus the 918 will have much more aero grip than the MP4.

The MP4’s performance is definitely out as it runs c.210mph on the back straight. But it’s not just the top speed that feels out; as I said, the grip levels for braking, mid corner and exit feel mental – the amount of throttle you can use on the exits in 2nd and 3rd gear without fear of spinning is silly. The above article has a 7m28s lap time - The GT6 time is 40s better than that. I have a replay saved of the MP4 at the 'Ring so I'll compare the apex speeds next couple of days when I get chance. I notice the MP4 in that test is on the optional Corsa tyre... which IMO is a SH equivalent in GT6, so it should be a good comparison.

For further evidence of the grip of SH tyres… last night I ran sub 7m30s in a stock NSX Type R. And the peak speed of that car, whilst still fast at c.170mph, is much more in line with reality. I doubt a NSX would break 8 mins in real life even on a Cup/Corsa tyre. The number of corners that require nothing more than a slight throttle lift is just silly, as is the level of traction on the exits – cornering technique is lift, turn the wheel, wait for the car to rotate in to the corner (the NSX does this perfectly), then jump on the throttle well before the apex without any fear of oversteer.

I ran 8’08 in a stock RX8 on comfort softs – which still seems a little on the fast side for a full lap.

I remain pretty convinced that SH tyres have too much grip for road cars.

Generally I agree with your opinion regarding SH, only the 918 video made me think when I saw it first. The GT5 12C couldn't go that speed at Aremberg for example on SH. I think the consensus in GT5 was, SH have the realistic longitudinal grip while CS the realistic lateral grip. GT6 has better longitudinal grip than GT5 it seems to me, so I'm not yet sure how it is now.

But with the Supertest lap from Sport Auto you have to take into account other factors: The driver, Horst von Sauma, does 1 warm up lap, then 2 quick laps. The goal is to do a save lap, to show what is accessable for ordinary drivers. A GT hotlap time on the other hand will usually be the result of quite some trying, where every failed attempt would in reality get you to awake in hospital and destroy the car. I think this already makes a difference of 10-20 sec over the lap. In game I could drive the 918 way quicker I believe, just from going more risk and using the constant grip of the track to go closer to the limit.

The McLaren MP4-12C also seems too good in GT6. In GT5 it seemed worse than the real car, about 1 tyre grade worse. In GT6 my impression when comparing to real life data is it's 1 tyre grade too good now (which is reflected in 20pp more compared to GT5).

 

[FlipJ]

(...) The goal is to do a save lap, to show what is accessable for ordinary drivers. A GT hotlap time on the other hand will usually be the result of quite some trying, where every failed attempt would in reality get you to awake in hospital and destroy the car. I think this already makes a difference of 10-20 sec over the lap. In game I could drive the 918 way quicker I believe, just from going more risk and using the constant grip of the track to go closer to the limit. (...)

I think this probably can account for a big difference (not saying tires are perfect, they are not).
The possibility to go balls to the wall because you can crash at 250km/h and simply restart or keep going for another lap makes a huge difference in what you do in the trickiest corners.
Although, I must say, that is one of the benefits of the simulator, trying stuff that wouldn't fly in real life due to cost, limb loss or general desire to remain alive.

 

[Gentoo64]

In reality, gravity hurls you toward the ground with an acceleration of 32.2 ft/s² (or, if you prefer, 9.8 m/s²).

I just got into Cape Ring recently, it's a fantastic track. Could be where I went from racing online with RS to Cape Ring on Sport Soft, but Sports make everything better. I love that twisty round and round section really hammered the dampers on my XJ220.

 

[FormulaKimball]

In reality, gravity hurls you toward the ground with an acceleration of 32.2 ft/s² (or, if you prefer, 9.8 m/s²).

Yes I'm aware, and thanks to MiB3 now everyone can have a catchphrase to remember it by , but a while back I wanted to figure out a more petrolhead illustration. The Veyron is actually considerably slower than 32 ft/s/s, but you get my point. That comes to about 47mph per second [edit: no it's not, it's 21.9mph per second]... some idea of how hard you slam into the pavement and how difficult it is to get any real air time even without any aero to help push you back down. To me it feels like GT6 (and GT5 for that matter) doesn't accelerate gravity as a constant, more like it reverses the force it was given, so you "float" all the time. That's what it feels like anyway.

I did find this cool vid, look at 4:34 for the train of airborne cars (and the awesome engine sounds also btw):


And another link. Again, lots of differences in real physics compared to what most of these cars would have done in GT6

 

[MrWednesday]

I'll admit, I was just going for the cheap joke / swinging at the hanging curve.

I think you're backwards on the mph-per-second thing, though... 44 ft/s is 30 mph. 32.2 ft/s² should be between 20 and 25 mph/s.

 

[FormulaKimball]

I'll admit, I was just going for the cheap joke / swinging at the hanging curve.

I think you're backwards on the mph-per-second thing, though... 44 ft/s is 30 mph. 32.2 ft/s² should be between 20 and 25 mph/s.

Ah damn, you're right I messed up, gravity is 21.9mph per second. So maybe the Veyron is that fast after all, actually a little faster. I was second-guessing myself today. It's early