Myth: Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer. Status: BUSTED!

[Magog]

I've seen it argued that the Gran Turismo series gives front wheel drive cars an unrealistic and unfun amount of understeer. I decided to test it out myself. As it turns out the front wheel drive cars can actually use the drive wheels to pull the car around the corner giving them enjoyable and agile turning ability. See my test run in the video below.

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[eran0004]

Nice video 👍

As for the myth ("understeer in FF cars in Gran Turismo is unrealistic and unfun"), I don't really see anything that proves or disproves it. You might want to perform some more controlled experiments for that, for example by comparing cornering forces between real and simulated cars, or by measuring the brightness of your smile before and after a test run

 

[Magog]

Nice video 👍

As for the myth ("understeer in FF cars in Gran Turismo is unrealistic and unfun"), I don't really see anything that proves or disproves it. You might want to perform some more controlled experiments for that, for example by comparing cornering forces between real and simulated cars, or by measuring the brightness of your smile before and after a test run

But there is. You can hear the tires breaking traction as I accelerate out of the corners and yet it keeps the line.

 

[eran0004]

But there is. You can hear the tires breaking traction as I accelerate out of the corners and yet it keeps the line.

Sure, but how does that bust the myth?

 

[Dave A]

Sure, but how does that bust the myth?

It doesn't, there's absolutely no data, it's just a video of a replay, it doesn't prove or disprove anything. There's not even any indiation of what inputs were used.

I can drive a car like that in GT Sport entering a corner slow enough and modulating the throttle enough, it doesn't mean the FWD cars don't understeer far too much and that they don't handle like any of the real cars I've actually driven including the ones that are actually represented in GT Sport.

I admire @Magog's optomistic attitude towards GT7, but we shouldn't let optomism blind us to things that are wrong. It's the emperors new clothes.

 

[Magog]

Sure, but how does that bust the myth?

Because if there was understeer the car would run wide under throttle exiting a corner.

@Dave A i hammered the throttle at the exit of nearly every corner with traction control turned off and minimal LSD.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

Some months ago there was a daily race C with FWD Grp. 4 at Brands Hatch. If you hammered the throttle out of corners, you'd run wide, go slow and waste your tyres. No way you can race in DR A lobbies with that technique.
I had to feather the throttle out of corners, and immediately when the wheel goes light, let go of the throttle and modulate.

In lower lobbies people went slower from the beginning, or at least wasted their tyres and went slower later on.

There was nothing special with that combination. All combinations where powerful FWD cars have been involved, with tyre wear, have been the same. With poor throttle control you get understeer out of corners, excessive tyre wear and slow lap times. That's with +5 brake bias. And no, there is no lift off or trail braking oversteer either.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I too like to make threads to prove my point and gloat when people who have better experience on vehicle dynamics in both sims and the real world point out that GT's handling physics, especially in regard to FWD cars is bad and not at all close to being realistic, and should be changed for the betterment of the series.

Absolutely not at all weird, no sir.

 

[Imari]

Because if there was understeer the car would run wide under throttle exiting a corner.

@Dave A i hammered the throttle at the exit of nearly every corner with traction control turned off and minimal LSD.

Tell me you don't understand vehicle dynamics without telling me you don't understand vehicle dynamics.

I mean, we could all tell from watching the video of you weaving all over the track, taking multiple bites at each corner and bouncing off the rev limiter, but it's nice that you spelled it out anyway.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Like, even if this is a dirty word, this is absolutely fanboy behavior. Reacting to (legitimate) criticisms about the handling model of a game from people who specifically have knowledge on vehicle dynamics in both sims and the real world, by going and creating a new thread, gloating about how they are right and correct, with supposed video evidence, when said evidence only really just confirms what those who were criticizing were saying.

It would be funny if it wasn't honestly a bit sad.

 

[br1x]

I've seen it argued that the Gran Turismo series gives front wheel drive cars an unrealistic and unfun amount of understeer. I decided to test it out myself. As it turns out the front wheel drive cars can actually use the drive wheels to pull the car around the corner giving them enjoyable and agile turning ability. See my test run in the video below.

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This is just like the discussion about the suspension which was visually more active in the trailers, where you claimed this is proof they improved the physics.

Like this video, it doesn't prove your point at all. You don't seem to be very open minded in these discussions, you want to believe something and try to find clues or "proof" that its true.

 

[Magog]

Tell me you don't understand vehicle dynamics without telling me you don't understand vehicle dynamics.

I mean, we could all tell from watching the video of you weaving all over the track, taking multiple bites at each corner and bouncing off the rev limiter, but it's nice that you spelled it out anyway.

The point of the video wasn't to show off my driving skills but to attempt to induce understeer which should have been easy if what you say about the physics model is true but instead I found it impossible to induce oversteer.

 

[superstreet556]

You literally understeered right off the track in your replay lol.

 

[Magog]

You literally understeered right off the track in your replay lol.

I went in too hot I didn't understeer. I was just making sure people watched before commenting. 😏

 

[Imari]

The point of the video wasn't to show off my driving skills but to attempt to induce understeer which should have been easy if what you say about the physics model is true but instead I found it impossible to induce oversteer.

I mean, you were understeering all over the place so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Do you know what understeer is?

The difficulty in provoking lift-off oversteer is also a problem in Gran Turismo, but it's not one that's unique to FWD cars. It is one that uniquely cripples them though as it's the primary method that they use to rotate the car. You don't exactly have the option of using power to break traction at the rear.

As far as your driving skills, one doesn't need to be Lewis Hamilton in order to showcase physics but if you can't manage to change gears and keep the car on the road then it's difficult to know what's the game and what's the user. I'd suggest a basic minimum skill level would be smooth and consistent driving, along with managing to keep the car on the road.

I went in too hot I didn't understeer. I was just making sure people watched before commenting. 😏

Ah, you don't actually know what understeer is. Well, this all makes a lot more sense now.

Going into a corner too hot is irrelevant. You were never going to make the corner at that speed, but oversteer or understeer is how the car behaves when asked to go beyond the grip it has available. You tried to turn into a corner too fast, the car understeered and you went off. That you don't understand that basic concept shows very clearly that you have no idea what you're talking about.



These guys do a bunch of good videos. You might want to watch some of them and educate yourself before continuing this line of discussion. If you look for beginner sim racing videos there's plenty out there that will walk you through the basics of how a car drives and how to use that knowledge to be smooth and fast. Then maybe you can come back and have meaningful input into the conversation, because right now you don't even understand the concept that you're trying to prove.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

By the way, @Magog, are you driving with a wheel or pad? If you're driving with a pad, that might explain some things.

I've earlier claimed that the game limits steering input to traction limit when on a pad. You can't flick the joystick and get 180 degrees wheel turn in-game at 200 km/h in 0,2 seconds.. This is possible with a wheel, which might lead to all kinds of death (oversteer/understeer).

I haven't even tried FWD race cars with a pad. Maybe that's where our observations differ? Since the in-game steering input adapts to available traction and doesn't let one understeer wildly?

I have tried the Gr. 3 Audi R8 with a pad though. Super easy to drive. No lift off oversteer.
When on a wheel with bad FFB settings, it's a nightmare. It's impossible to drive without oversteering on lift off.
With a wheel and good FFB settings, it's super fast and super fun, since you feel where the limit on lift off oversteer is.

 

[CBH]

I've seen it argued that the Gran Turismo series gives front wheel drive cars an unrealistic and unfun amount of understeer. I decided to test it out myself. As it turns out the front wheel drive cars can actually use the drive wheels to pull the car around the corner giving them enjoyable and agile turning ability. See my test run in the video below.

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To me you were understeering to much in the vid and you should test this on the track by yourself, with smooth and consistent driving for a few laps.

 

[BigJimmy]

You understeered loads of times. Even in the first hairpin where you had to back off and go again right at the start of the video.

 

[Samus]

 

[LeGeNd-1]

You need to get the same car, on the same track, under same track conditions in real life and in the game. Then overlay gas/brake/steering telemetry showing you did the same things and the car in game behaving exactly the same as real life to prove a point. Just a video of you driving doesn't do anything. It's just confirmation bias.

Something like this for example (even this video doesn't show input telemetry so it's not perfect either). Watch how easily he provokes oversteer using just weight transfer from 2 minutes onwards. Try doing this with the Audi TT in GT Sport and you'll struggle (and don't cheat by pulling the handbrake lol).


We're not trying to crap on you here btw. Just to educate. And it's still ok to like GT despite its flaws. I still have GT7 preordered but I'm not gonna deny it when people say other games have better physics.

 

[Magog]

You need to get the same car, on the same track, under same track conditions in real life and in the game. Then overlay gas/brake/steering telemetry showing you did the same things and the car in game behaving exactly the same as real life to prove a point. Just a video of you driving doesn't do anything. It's just confirmation bias.

Something like this for example (even this video doesn't show input telemetry so it's not perfect either). Watch how easily he provokes oversteer using just weight transfer from 2 minutes onwards. Try doing this with the Audi TT in GT Sport and you'll struggle (and don't cheat by pulling the handbrake lol).


We're not trying to crap on you here btw. Just to educate. And it's still ok to like GT despite its flaws. I still have GT7 preordered but I'm not gonna deny it when people say other games have better physics.

I tried ACC and it felt like it completely ignored Newton's laws of motion. A 3000 lb vehicle traveling at 100mph wants to keep going in a straight line. GT Sport captures that so you feel like the car is doing work fighting against momentum. ACC feels like it's on rails and it's too easy to turn in. Some might call that sensation understeer. I call it the nature of reality.

 

[05XR8]

That’s the thing, real GT3 and GT4 cars are meant to be easy to drive for customers.

 

[Samus]

I tried ACC and it felt like it completely ignored Newton's laws of motion. A 3000 lb vehicle traveling at 100mph wants to keep going in a straight line. GT Sport captures that so you feel like the car is doing work fighting against momentum. ACC feels like it's on rails and it's too easy to turn in. Some might call that sensation understeer. I call it the nature of reality.

Erm, no they don't. Not a GT3 race car, anyway.

Watch in amazement as this GT3 car goes around a corner at 230kph/140mph.



Your issue seems to be using GTS as a baseline, not reality. Do you drive in real life? Have you driven a race car?

 

[Magog]

Erm, no they don't. Not a GT3 race car, anyway.

Watch in amazement as this GT3 car goes around a corner at 230kph/140mph.



Your issue seems to be using GTS as a baseline, not reality. Do you drive in real life? Have you driven a race car?

Yes, you can corner at speed but that doesn't negate the physical laws of the universe. You can also turn at high speed in GTS but you can feel the effort the car takes to do so. I couldn't feel that in my time with ACC.

 

[Samus]

Yes, you can corner at speed but that doesn't negate the physical laws of the universe. You can also turn at high speed in GTS but you can feel the effort the car takes to do so. I couldn't feel that in my time with ACC.

Well you're pretty much on your own, there.

 

[Magog]

Well you're pretty much on your own, there.

Or not. @ThePotatoKing literally just complained that ACC cars feel too light and twitchy. People have varying opinions on which sims best match reality and they don't all align with your own.

 

[Dave A]

Of course everyone will have thier own opinion and interpretation of what feels the most realistic, and this is where Gran Turismo can appeal to the masses, because people less familiar with vehicle dynamics who have never driven a car fast on a track may play Gran Turismo Sport and think "yeah this is very realistic". I have no idea what @ThePotatoKing's experience is or yours @Magog for that matter.

Not that you must have extensive real world experience and a career in a relevant industry to have a valid point, but when you do get people with experience who are providing an opinion backed up by data it's perhaps unwise to just dismiss it as merely an opinion. You see, opinions are everywhere, and everyone is entitled to one, but they can also be wrong.

 

[Samus]

Or not. @ThePotatoKing literally just complained that ACC cars feel too light and twitchy. People have varying opinions on which sims best match reality and they don't all align with your own.

..and how does he know which is more realistic, if he hasn't driven those cars in real life? Or any performance car for that matter, given that he's 19.

Again it's the same problem as yourself, using GTS as a benchmark. Find me a real world GT3 driver who says the real car is not like that, then you'd have a point.

GT3 cars ARE light. The dry weight is around 1250kg. That's not much more than a road going Renault Clio.

 

[AlexWilmot]

Love this idea that GT3/4s are soo easy to drive because of gentlemen drivers/customers….

They’re setup to have more understeer so it’s “easier” for said drivers to prevent spins and accidents but to think any Tom, Dick and Harry can just jump in and be quick is not true

 

[Samus]

to think any Tom, Dick and Harry can just jump in and be quick is not true

Who said that? This topic wasn't even about GT3 cars, it was about FF cars, but then Magog brought up ACC, which is exclusively GT3 and GT4 cars.