Myth: Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer. Status: BUSTED!

[Spirit]

Feelings of understeer and oversteer are subjective and based on perception. Take someone who likes to drive rear-wheel drive GT3s and shove them in a TCR and they’re most likely going to say the car pushes a lot because of the weight distribution and torque steer.

Conversely, take someone who races TCRs often and throw them in a GT3 or even a rear-wheel drive GT4 and see what they think. What’s “normal” for the driver plays a big part in all of it given they attack the corners in a consistent manner.

I don’t think using one persons experience in a particular type of vehicle to evaluate a whole class is a sound evaluation. And honestly, the driving in the video was not anything I could draw conclusions from other than that when the power is applied with steering angle, the front wheels spin significantly. If the front wheels are spinning there’s no lateral grip being generated so that draws the balance towards understeer, which I believe is contrary to the point the driver is trying to make.

 

[AlexWilmot]

Who said that? This topic wasn't even about GT3 cars, it was about FF cars, but then Magog brought up ACC, which is exclusively GT3 and GT4 cars.

That’s the thing, real GT3 and GT4 cars are meant to be easy to drive for customers.

 

[Samus]

@AlexWilmot right, he said easy to drive. They are, relatively speaking. He didn't say they could easily drive them quickly.

 

[Dave A]

Feelings of understeer and oversteer are subjective and based on perception. Take someone who likes to drive rear-wheel drive GT3s and shove them in a TCR and they’re most likely going to say the car pushes a lot because of the weight distribution and torque steer.

Conversely, take someone who races TCRs often and throw them in a GT3 or even a rear-wheel drive GT4 and see what they think. What’s “normal” for the driver plays a big part in all of it given they attack the corners in a consistent manner.

I don’t think using one persons experience in a particular type of vehicle to evaluate a whole class is a sound evaluation. And honestly, the driving in the video was not anything I could draw conclusions from other than that when the power is applied with steering angle, the front wheels spin significantly. If the front wheels are spinning there’s no lateral grip being generated so that draws the balance towards understeer, which I believe is contrary to the point the driver is trying to make.

Sure a persons interpretation/feeling of understeer is subjective, one person may find car A nicely balanced and another person could find it understeers too much. But actual understeer and oversteer are not subjective themselves, only how we feel/react to it is.

And that is the crux of this topic really, do the the FWD cars in GT Sport handle just like they do in real life, which they don't. I don't believe that is a subjective statement, as it's not based on feeling it's based on what the cars physically do in the game.

 

[Magog]

..and how does he know which is more realistic, if he hasn't driven those cars in real life? Or any performance car for that matter, given that he's 19.

Again it's the same problem as yourself, using GTS as a benchmark. Find me a real world GT3 driver who says the real car is not like that, then you'd have a point.

Does Lewis Hamilton, arguably the greatest race car driver to ever live, endorse and appear in Gran Turismo Sport or ACC? And before you say he's just doing it for the money he has plenty of fame and fortune and doesn't need to attach his name to a sub par sim for a couple bucks.

 

[Spirit]

But actual understeer and oversteer are not subjective themselves, only how we feel/react to it is.

Yes I agree, which is why I said “feelings of understeer.” You do bring up a good point that kinematic understeer is a metric that can be calculated.

And that is the crux of this topic really, do the the FWD cars in GT Sport handle just like they do in real life, which they don't. I don't believe that is a subjective statement, as it's not based on feeling it's based on what the cars physically do in the game.

Can not agree or disagree because I don’t have enough practical knowledge about how front-wheel drive vehicles behave in the physical world. All I know is that torque steer exists and too much of it means that you’re no longer turning when you really want to be.

 

[Dave A]

Does Lewis Hamilton, arguably the greatest race car driver to ever live, endorse and appear in Gran Turismo Sport or ACC? And before you say he's just doing it for the money he has plenty of fame and fortune and doesn't need to attach his name to a sub par sim for a couple bucks.

That is your argument, Lewis Hamilton wouldn't have been associated with Gran Turismo if it were not completely realistic? I'm trying to give you a bit of slack in this thread but come on. It was a sponsor deal, he was paid, it was to promote Gran Turismo, that's what he did. He may not need the money, but money matters a lot to even the most wealthy people.

Why do you see Jose Mourinho promoting betting companies or sticking his face on crappy mobile football games. It isn't because they're amazing products, it's because they're paid an agreeable amount to do it.

Rather than tackle the actual physics going on, you just seem to be bouncing around ideas hoping one will stick.

You need to go away, take some time, analyse the data, look for real world examples that you can compare and present that data in a way that backs up your point. If you can't, then maybe you need to step back from this topic and think you might not be right this time. That doesn't mean you won't be right about something else.

 

[Magog]

Who said that? This topic wasn't even about GT3 cars, it was about FF cars, but then Magog brought up ACC, which is exclusively GT3 and GT4 cars.

I brought it up because you expanded your complaint from FF cars understeer to ALL cars in GT Sport understeer. I made the video under the assumption that you meant they understeer out of corners because that would at least make sense as the only differences should show between FF and other cars when they are accelerating. If you're talking about understeering into corners that is a complaint not about FF cars but about how weight distribution affects understeer as FF cars tend to be heavier at the front than other cars. A different discussion entirely and I'm sure you will be able to adjust the weight distribution in 7 as it is bringing back the full tuning options.

 

[Samus]

Does Lewis Hamilton, arguably the greatest race car driver to ever live, endorse and appear in Gran Turismo Sport or ACC? And before you say he's just doing it for the money he has plenty of fame and fortune and doesn't need to attach his name to a sub par sim for a couple bucks.

Seriously? Lewis Hamilton has said he did play GT as a kid, he has the same experiences and memories with it that we do, doing the same. Him agreeing to appear in GTS and having the logo on his hat is NOT an endorsement that GTS is the greatest simulation available. He has never given any serious comment on it, AFAIK. He just wanted to appear because they approached and he's a fan of the series.

Verstappen on the other hand, the guy that beat Hamilton this year, HAS gone on record that GT isn't particularly realistic and he prefers to stick with iRacing. Make of that whatever you will, but let me be clear, he hasn't said iRacing is perfect and 100% realistic.

PS nobody ever called GTS sub-par. It's definitely above average.

I brought it up because you expanded your complaint from FF cars understeer to ALL cars in GT Sport understeer.

I definitely didn't do that. But anyway, all cars do eventually understeer if you go too fast, even F1 cars.

The point was always that FF cars in GTS understeer far more than they do in real life. Nothing more than that. Your video does nothing to disprove that.

 

[NICKname]

Does Lewis Hamilton, arguably the greatest race car driver to ever live, endorse and appear in Gran Turismo Sport or ACC? And before you say he's just doing it for the money he has plenty of fame and fortune and doesn't need to attach his name to a sub par sim for a couple bucks.

Vettel endorsed and appeared in GT5 and GT6. And obviously the physics at the time weren't as good as they would be in GTS. So clearly it has nothing to do with the quality of the physics. I don't doubt that Hamilton would've endorsed GT5 and GT6 if PD made his management an offer (with a large enough sum of money).

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

But anyway, all cars do eventually understeer if you go too fast, even F1 cars.

Motorcycles do too, despite being RWD and having perfect weight distribution. But sure, you can over- and understeer at the same time, if you apply way too much throttle on corner exit on poor surface, rotating while understeering off track.

 

[Magog]

Vettel endorsed and appeared in GT5 and GT6. And obviously the physics at the time weren't as good as they would be in GTS. So clearly it has nothing to do with the quality of the physics. I don't doubt that Hamilton would've endorsed GT5 and GT6 if PD made his management an offer (with a large enough sum of money).

The physics of them were good at the time and Sport obviously is even better. There are still those that think GT7 won't be another major leap in believability but from what we have seen the fidelity of the simulation is definitely taken to the next level.

 

[Samus]

from what we have seen the fidelity of the simulation is definitely taken to the next level.

You can't properly judge physics from videos. Nobody here can say what GT7 physics are like until we play it.

 

[George Jakob]

Does Lewis Hamilton, arguably the greatest race car driver to ever live, endorse and appear in Gran Turismo Sport or ACC? And before you say he's just doing it for the money he has plenty of fame and fortune and doesn't need to attach his name to a sub par sim for a couple bucks.

I wasen't going to reply but this got me before answering that tho.. Aren't you the one who says that GT7 will have so much better physics? what do you mean ": Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer....." Regardless of if its true or not the title contradicts that statement,at best that could be right for the base PS4 version. But back to the quote Lewis Hamilton endorsing the game means absolutely nothing and money surely played a role, How do i know that? well lets take a look at whats wrong with the Mercedes W08 the car he drove in 2017.
-The car can be refueled unlike real life.
-No ERS deployment maps. and if you say that these could be hard for casual players to handle lets go down a level.
-Totally incorrect DRS implementation from the way it gets activated to the lack of DRS zones even in tracks F1 races in to being able to be used in fully wet conditions (by the player only) Thus creating an offline exploit . But ill go even below that.
-They didn't even implement every kind of branding on the tyre sidewall to much the compound used in game (Only yellow aka medium for dry tyres and blue for wet and intermediate). As much as i d'on't like saying this , this is the laziest inclusion of an F1 car i have ever seen and if Lewis Hamilton did that because he loved GT after seeing this he should've grabbed the phone call PD and say guys what 🤬 are you doing.

 

[Magog]

I wasen't going to reply but this got me before answering that tho.. Aren't you the one who says that GT7 will have so much better physics? what do you mean ": Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer....." Regardless of if true or not the title contradicts that statement,at best that could be right for the base PS4 version. But back to the quote Lewis Hamilton endorsing the game means absolutely nothing and money surely played a role, How do i know that? well lets take a look at the Mercedes W08 the car he drove in 2017.
-The car can be refueled unlike real life.
-No ERS deployment maps. and if you say that these could be hard for casual players to handle lets go down a level.
-Totally incorrect DRS implementation from the way it gets activated to the lack of DRS zones even in tracks F1 races in to being able to be used in fully wet conditions (by the player only) Thus creating an offline exploit . But ill go even below that.
-They didn't even implement every kind of brading on the tyre sidewall to much the compound used in game (Only yellow aka medium for dry tyres and blue for wet and intermediate). As much as i d'on't like saying this , this is the laziest inclusion of an F1 car i have ever seen and if Lewis Hamilton did that because he loved GT after seeing this he should've grabbed the phone call PD and say guys what 🤬 are you doing.

Why should they rewrite the entire game code for a single car? Better to have it fit into the existing scheme everyone playing is familiar with.

 

[Dave A]

Why should they rewrite the entire game code for a single car? Better to have it fit into the existing scheme everyone playing is familiar with.

They wouldn't need to, they just chose not to go into that much detail.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Why should they rewrite the entire game code for a single car? Better to have it fit into the existing scheme everyone playing is familiar with.

Why bother putting a specific vehicle in a game then, if you are not going to bother at least trying to replicate the unique properties that said vehicle has in any sort of meaningful way?

 

[Magog]

Why bother putting a specific vehicle in a game then, if you are not going to bother at least trying to replicate the unique properties that said vehicle has in any sort of meaningful way?

The things he's talking about are nitpicking. Do you really think the game would be better off if you couldn't refuel the car or they enforced the inane FIA DRS zones?

 

[Biggles]

Looking at Magog's made me think how awesome GTS's replay graphics are ... but then I have GTS sitting on my PS4 & never play it because the driving experience is just so meh. It's really not that different from the last 2 or 3 iterations of GT. I'm really not a big fan of GT3/4 cars in any case - they are "too easy to drive", which really means that minus the speed, physicality & danger that's present IRL, they just aren't that exciting. Give me a RUF Yellowbird or any other powerful RWD car with mediocre tires in AC & it's just way more immersive & challenging an experience.

 

[Silver Arrows]

The things he's talking about are nitpicking. Do you really think the game would be better off if you couldn't refuel the car or they enforced the inane FIA DRS zones?

This is coming from a guy who decided to make a thread where he believed that FF cars were somehow actually done up right in order to prove a few people who know much more then him, wrong. And has put said guy further in the hole with his argument.

What the **** is the point of any of this? Stroking your ego? Kaz won't see this, you know.

 

[Scaff]

Tell me it's close to a Gran Turismo title launch without telling me it's close to a Gran Turismo title launch.

I have to be honest, this kind of insane tribalism is one of the most unpleasant elements of Sim racing. Passive aggressive threads which don't actually do what they so boldly claim to, reality and real world experience of members dismissed out of hand because of devotion to a video game series just boggles the mind.

Alonso plastered his name all over Grid (2019), far more than LH has with GTS, Alonso does not need the money either, so I guess that's Grid as a full blown Sim of unquestionably provenance now as well. It's the bloody GT Academy nonsense all over again.

Dunning Kruger is in full effect.

 

[George Jakob]

Why should they rewrite the entire game code for a single car? Better to have it fit into the existing scheme everyone playing is familiar with.

To which of my points are you refering?. Ill cover them all just in case.

1. Like Dave said before me they don't have to 'rewrite the entire game code" every time and the fact you thought thats how it works is astounding.
2. Lets put ERS aside because that would indeed require effort what about the others? well..
3. Free DRS usage does happen in F1 practice sessions, so for arguments sake ill give you that. Still thats not the biggest oversight the activation method is, at the very least all they had to is as soon as a player reaches a straight all they had to do was press the assigned button once,and if you recall it worked differently when it was first introduced before changing in its current form after a patch so they have the ability to make it somewhat proper.
4. Like i said the DRS can be used im full wet conditions by humans only so the function to prohibit that is already in the game.
5. As for the tyre branding all they had to do was assign the rest of the compound colours.

The things he's talking about are nitpicking. Do you really think the game would be better off if you couldn't refuel the car or they enforced the inane FIA DRS zones?

E-excuse me? did you really say that refueling one of the most important aspects in racing is nitpicking?😳. And to answer your question Yes i do beliave the game will became better because i expect a certain level of realism from "The real driving simulator". And please keep in mind that this are fundamental issues just about 1 car.

 

[UnkaD]

I wasen't going to reply but this got me before answering that tho.. Aren't you the one who says that GT7 will have so much better physics? what do you mean ": Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer....." Regardless of if true or not the title contradicts that statement,at best that could be right for the base PS4 version. But back to the quote Lewis Hamilton endorsing the game means absolutely nothing and money surely played a role, How do i know that? well lets take a look at the Mercedes W08 the car he drove in 2017.
-The car can be refueled unlike real life.
-No ERS deployment maps. and if you say that these could be hard for casual players to handle lets go down a level.
-Totally incorrect DRS implementation from the way it gets activated to the lack of DRS zones even in tracks F1 races in to being able to be used in fully wet conditions (by the player only) Thus creating an offline exploit . But ill go even below that.
-They didn't even implement every kind of branding on the tyre sidewall to much the compound used in game (Only yellow aka medium for dry tyres and blue for wet and intermediate). As much as i d'on't like saying this , this is the laziest inclusion of an F1 car i have ever seen and if Lewis Hamilton did that because he loved GT after seeing this he should've grabbed the phone call PD and say guys what 🤬 are you doing.

Not to mention when you're rolling in that F1 car around 5 mph and turn the wheel side to side the car pivots as if it's floating on the pit rollers. Pretty damn realistic physics I'd say.

 

[Imari]

Not to mention when you're rolling in that F1 car around 5 mph and turn the wheel side to side the car pivots as if it's floating on the pit rollers. Pretty damn realistic physics I'd say.

Is that true? I thought they'd done away with the central pivot physics.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I tried ACC and it felt like it completely ignored Newton's laws of motion. A 3000 lb vehicle traveling at 100mph wants to keep going in a straight line. GT Sport captures that so you feel like the car is doing work fighting against momentum. ACC feels like it's on rails and it's too easy to turn in. Some might call that sensation understeer. I call it the nature of reality.

peachplumpear | Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com

www.kudosprime.com

I mean sure, when you're driving around 10 seconds off the pace, I guess reality can be whatever you want

I blame PD for brainwashing an entire generation of sim racers with their "The Real Driving Simulator" slogan, despite their physics engine still having 20 year old quirks.

Ever see a Time Attack FF car setup like this in real life?

 

[05XR8]

I guess no real wheel lifting in that thing, like this:

 

[UnkaD]

Is that true? I thought they'd done away with the central pivot physics.

I'm not sure if it's present in all cars, or just the Mercedes. Last time I drove the car was about four months ago and it was still doing it then. It was just painfully apparent something was up in slow corners because the car is so long, so I started messing around stopping and driving slow on the straight. The front of the car swings over to left while the wheels are still pointing right, and the rear swings the other way.

 

[Silver Arrows]

peachplumpear | Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com

www.kudosprime.com

I mean sure, when you're driving around 10 seconds off the pace, I guess reality can be whatever you want

I blame PD for brainwashing an entire generation of sim racers with their "The Real Driving Simulator" slogan, despite their physics engine still having 20 year old quirks.

Ever see a Time Attack FF car setup like this in real life?

And we're done here. This thread was already dishonest considering what it was originally birthed from, but this is the killshot.

What bothers me is that like, when you have people who have actual experience in vehicle dynamics, specifically within FF vehicles saying that GT's implementation of such has been bad for years now with no real change even when other much smaller developers have managed to push things forward in that regard, the plan for some is...to bring up other games and say that they are bad, and try to place GT as the baseline when that is nowhere near the case.

Handling physics are subjective in some cases, yes. But there is no denying that when it comes to FF vehicles (which OP tried to use one of their own replays as a gotcha and shift the argument to his own ground, for what reason I do not know) GT has been bad for a long while, and has had little basis in reality even considering its simcade origins.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I don't even know why this is a thread...

 

[Silver Arrows]

I don't even know why this is a thread...

Because OP could sense that he was losing in the main thread that this was birthed from, and decided to use one of his replays as a gotcha and to shift the argument onto his court, and into his favor.

Hilariously, it back fired and shows instead what people were correctly criticizing to begin with: that FF cars in GT have no real basis in reality most of the time.