Myth: Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer. Status: BUSTED!

[ScottPuss20]

I'll give you a hint - most people's problems with the FWD cars are not that they don't understeer enough, it's that they understeer in situations they shouldn't. If you're trying to show how much understeer you can get in all situations in GTS then you're just proving the point.

One such situation is getting on the power on corner exit. Do it too early and you'll understeer straight off the track or into a wall. The only way to solve this issue is by lifting off the power completely and having another stab at the throttle. However when you lift off the throttle the front grips up too much, forcing you to reduce your steering angle. It's soo frustrating because it doesn't make any sense. FWD's should be easy to drive with poke and poise but they feel like boats in GT Sport with stupid handling characteristics that go against basic physics. PD don't have to reinvent the wheel in order to nail down the dynamics, so there's no reason why the issue can't be addressed. It should move closer to realism so people can get in and drive without getting confused.

 

[CBH]

One such situation is getting on the power on corner exit. Do it too early and you'll understeer straight off the track or into a wall. The only way to solve this issue is by lifting off the power completely and having another stab at the throttle. However when you lift off the throttle the front grips up too much, forcing you to reduce your steering angle. It's soo frustrating because it doesn't make any sense. FWD's should be easy to drive with poke and poise but they feel like boats in GT Sport with stupid handling characteristics that go against basic physics. PD don't have to reinvent the wheel in order to nail down the dynamics, so there's no reason why the issue can't be addressed. It should move closer to realism so people can get in and drive without getting confused.

If you have issues with FWD cars how about tuning them up so they don't understeer, problem solved.

 

[Magog]

One such situation is getting on the power on corner exit. Do it too early and you'll understeer straight off the track or into a wall. The only way to solve this issue is by lifting off the power completely and having another stab at the throttle. However when you lift off the throttle the front grips up too much, forcing you to reduce your steering angle. It's soo frustrating because it doesn't make any sense. FWD's should be easy to drive with poke and poise but they feel like boats in GT Sport with stupid handling characteristics that go against basic physics. PD don't have to reinvent the wheel in order to nail down the dynamics, so there's no reason why the issue can't be addressed. It should move closer to realism so people can get in and drive without getting confused.

That is how a FF car is supposed to handle. By getting on the power early you are using some of the grip of the front wheels to accelerate which lowers the amount of grip it has available to turn leading to understeer.

 

[CBH]

That is how a FF car is supposed to handle. By getting on the power early you are using some of the grip of the front wheels to accelerate which lowers the amount of grip it has available to turn leading to understeer.

Stock settings on FWD cars will lead to understeer as you describe..

 

[Imari]

If you have issues with FWD cars how about tuning them up so they don't understeer, problem solved.

1. If the physics are roughly correct and the car properties are roughly correct then the cars should at least behave roughly like their real life counterparts.
2. The player shouldn't have to fix the game for the developer. That's what we pay them for.
3. I'm not sold that we can. I've never been able to tune a front wheel drive car to behave convincingly like a real life front wheel drive car in a Gran Turismo game. I'm not particularly good at tuning cars, so it may be that it's possible but I'm simply not capable of doing it (see points 1 and 2 for the fact that I shouldn't have to, but still). Or it may be that the physics are incorrect in a way that is not able to be corrected with tuning. We don't have infinite adjustability, we have a limited range of tuning on a select few parameters. Polyphony has far more options to adjust the car behaviour than we do.

That is how a FF car is supposed to handle. By getting on the power early you are using some of the grip of the front wheels to accelerate which lowers the amount of grip it has available to turn leading to understeer.

It's about half of how an FF car is supposed to handle. The handling under power is mostly fine, it does what it's supposed to. The handling off power is not correct. Most of us don't go around the entire course with our foot welded to the firewall, and so the handling off power is an important part of driving the car.

I don't recall ever seeing anyone lose the back of an FF car in Gran Turismo because they went into a corner too hard. I'm sure someone has, but it's way rarer than it should be. Mostly they get what you showed in your video, 14 metric tons of understeer into the gravel trap.

Meanwhile, in real life we have cars understeering, oversteering, four wheel drifting, and getting tank slappers that result in spins.



Also includes rear wheel drive cars, because Youtube. Ignore or enjoy as you please.

 

[CBH]

1. If the physics are roughly correct and the car properties are roughly correct then the cars should at least behave roughly like their real life counterparts.
2. The player shouldn't have to fix the game for the developer. That's what we pay them for.
3. I'm not sold that we can. I've never been able to tune a front wheel drive car to behave convincingly like a real life front wheel drive car in a Gran Turismo game. I'm not particularly good at tuning cars, so it may be that it's possible but I'm simply not capable of doing it (see points 1 and 2 for the fact that I shouldn't have to, but still). Or it may be that the physics are incorrect in a way that is not able to be corrected with tuning. We don't have infinite adjustability, we have a limited range of tuning on a select few parameters. Polyphony has far more options to adjust the car behaviour than we do.

We all know the tire physics are not correct in GT Sport, which may lead FWD's cars to do some strange things like to much understeer. So we just have to wait and see what GT7 physics will do, but if you don't tune a car you may have handling issues.

 

[Samus]

We all know the tire physics are not correct in GT Sport, which may lead FWD's cars to do some strange things like to much understeer. So we just have to wait and see what GT7 physics will do, but if you don't tune a car you may have handling issues.

Tune all your cars in real life do you?

 

[Magog]

1. If the physics are roughly correct and the car properties are roughly correct then the cars should at least behave roughly like their real life counterparts.
2. The player shouldn't have to fix the game for the developer. That's what we pay them for.
3. I'm not sold that we can. I've never been able to tune a front wheel drive car to behave convincingly like a real life front wheel drive car in a Gran Turismo game. I'm not particularly good at tuning cars, so it may be that it's possible but I'm simply not capable of doing it (see points 1 and 2 for the fact that I shouldn't have to, but still). Or it may be that the physics are incorrect in a way that is not able to be corrected with tuning. We don't have infinite adjustability, we have a limited range of tuning on a select few parameters. Polyphony has far more options to adjust the car behaviour than we do.

It's about half of how an FF car is supposed to handle. The handling under power is mostly fine, it does what it's supposed to. The handling off power is not correct. Most of us don't go around the entire course with our foot welded to the firewall, and so the handling off power is an important part of driving the car.

I don't recall ever seeing anyone lose the back of an FF car in Gran Turismo because they went into a corner too hard. I'm sure someone has, but it's way rarer than it should be. Mostly they get what you showed in your video, 14 metric tons of understeer into the gravel trap.

Meanwhile, in real life we have cars understeering, oversteering, four wheel drifting, and getting tank slappers that result in spins.



Also includes rear wheel drive cars, because Youtube. Ignore or enjoy as you please.

Okay, but that half he was specifically giving as an example of what is wrong with the model and as you say that is what they got right.

 

[Wolfe]

I have some suggestions for specific FWD physics examinations:

1. So-called "Arab drifting". Is it anywhere near possible or not? Handbrake not required to get started.
2. Twist up the rear wheels and see how much oversteer you can get. Like, maximum toe out and camber.
3. Combine a Scandinavian flick with a downshift once unsettled, and provide no corrective input.
4. Hit the brakes (not the handbrake) with the suspension unloaded over a crest, with a bit of steering/rotation in place.
5. Can you extend a controlled slide by locking all four brakes? (Can you...start one in the first place?)

All of the above should be able to produce considerable oversteer. If it can't be managed, it ain't there -- and a deficit of oversteer effects is colloquially (if not always technically) understeer, and too much of it.

1. If the physics are roughly correct and the car properties are roughly correct then the cars should at least behave roughly like their real life counterparts.
2. The player shouldn't have to fix the game for the developer. That's what we pay them for.

I'm getting déjà vu from close to 17 years ago...

 

[Dave A]

Okay, but that half he was specifically giving as an example of what is wrong with the model and as you say that is what they got right.

Not exactley, how and when they understeer under power is still wrong. Some cars are more wrong than other cars. Some have a completele absence of LSD in game when the real car handles like it's on rails, but in game understeers around corners on power without much option of anything else. There's huge scope for improvement. The fact FF cars understeer under power is loosely correct, it depends on the car, the surface, the corner radius and camber, the tyres, the amount of power etc. But it isn't the same in real life as it is in GT Sport for the cars I can compare the game with closely enough to say they are wrong with confidence.

 

[Samus]

It's amazing how many times people with countless hours of real world experience driving powerful FWD cars can explain how GT gets the handling of them wrong, giving detailed specific issues, but people STILL keep coming back with "Yeah, but what if you...." and "Well, I found...."

They're wrong. Tuning won't fix it. Driving differently won't fix it. We hope PD fix it for GT7. It's really very simple.

 

[Scaff]

That is how a FF car is supposed to handle

How many and which LSD equipped FWD cars have you driven at pace on a track?

How many and which fwd race cars have you driven?

I ask because you seem very, very deep into Dunning Kruger territory, you also need to stop with the logical fantasy, as you have attempted to use strawmen arguments more times than I can count.

So let's be clear:

• No one has suggested FWD cars have infinite front grip, so stop posting as if people have
• No one is bad-mouthing GT as a series because of its issues, most of us are just as happy to point out issues with all titles.
• You understand the basics of vehicle dynamics, but I'm going to be blunt, it is the very basics!

What people are saying (correctly)

• GTS is far too prone to understeer in FWD cars in comparison to reality
• This understeer is far harder to correct once it occurs in comparison to reality
• GTS does not model lift-off oversteer even close to accurately in FWD cars, again using reality as a benchmark
• GTS does not model the effect of FWD LSD systems accurately in comparison to reality.

Now let's look at the last of these, as it seems to be the one you are getting your vehicle dynamics knowledge confused on. Now you are correct in saying that every tire on a car has a traction budget to use, and for driven wheels that budget is split between turning and power delivery when turning (if you want to get technical actually all tires are subject to this, as even none driven wheels are still subject to yaw, and then you have cars with rear-wheel steer as well - but let's keep it basic). However, the assumptions you are (inaccurately) making are that a) GTS models the balance and interaction between these needs accurately and well, it doesn't, that is clear to see in the overblown difficulty in recovering from understeer (however it's not the only issue GTS has that causes that issue - load transfer problems in the physics model also come into play here as well; and b) the effect LSD's, particularly modern electronically controlled mechanical LSD's have on a car. These are specifically designed to ensure that a FWD car can maximize every bit of the traction budget it has across its front axle, the result is an ability to maximise both available grip and power delivery to a degree that even a comparable (in terms of Power-to-weight ratio) MR or RWD will not be able to match unless it's equipped with an LSD itself. Even then one of the disadvantages MR and FWD have in comparison is that the LSD they are using is only able to balance the driven force, not the grip budget across the steering axle.

Now without an LSD of this nature, you are correct that an FWD car will be spinning away a lot of power (just as a non-LSD equipped RWD, etc. car will), but it's still not going to understeer to the degree that GTS models, and more importantly it's not going to be as hard to recover as GTS models. However, with one, it's one of the reasons why well-sorted, LSD-equipped FWD cars are able to beat MR and RWD cars around tracks, with teh same magazine clocking (for example) near-identical times for an F430 and a Megane RS Trophy R. The limit of FWD cars is less around what they are capable of, and much more around what the limit is in terms of outright power delivery.

However to illustrate the point, here's a comparison lap around Silverstone National between a McLaren P1 (1,490kgs / 903bhp = 606 bhp/ton) and a BTCC Focus (1,280kgs / 380bhp = 296.9 bhp/ton), same driver and the Focus is running in traffic and Silverstone National is a layout that favors power.

 

[CBH]

Not exactley, how and when they understeer under power is still wrong. Some cars are more wrong than other cars. Some have a completele absence of LSD in game when the real car handles like it's on rails, but in game understeers around corners on power without much option of anything else. There's huge scope for improvement. The fact FF cars understeer under power is loosely correct, it depends on the car, the surface, the corner radius and camber, the tyres, the amount of power etc. But it isn't the same in real life as it is in GT Sport for the cars I can compare the game with closely enough to say they are wrong with confidence.

Tire physics is why we having issues with to much understeer on FWD cars.

 

[Magog]

Not exactley, how and when they understeer under power is still wrong. Some cars are more wrong than other cars. Some have a completele absence of LSD in game when the real car handles like it's on rails, but in game understeers around corners on power without much option of anything else. There's huge scope for improvement. The fact FF cars understeer under power is loosely correct, it depends on the car, the surface, the corner radius and camber, the tyres, the amount of power etc. But it isn't the same in real life as it is in GT Sport for the cars I can compare the game with closely enough to say they are wrong with confidence.

He was responding to Imari saying FF cars understeer in unexpected places citing they understeer on power out of corners as an example. I'm just saying that's probably the worst example to possibly give as FF cars have a tendency to understeer out of corners in general compared to rear wheel drive cars which tend to oversteer out of corners on power.

 

[Imari]

We all know the tire physics are not correct in GT Sport, which may lead FWD's cars to do some strange things like to much understeer. So we just have to wait and see what GT7 physics will do, but if you don't tune a car you may have handling issues.

Sure, I just don't think we should hold up tuning as a solution. It shouldn't be required in any game, and especially not a game like Gran Turismo that is intended to be accessible to the casual racer.

Tuning is a way to alter the car's performance to suit your driving style, not correct gross defects in the physical simulation. Tuning is a solution to one or a few FF cars that have excessive understeer. If they all have it that's a problem with the game's systems (or potentially the driver, but there's a wide enough consensus here that I think we can rule that out).

If something like tyre physics is not fundamentally correct, then I think we should just say that. That's fine, basically every simulation out there has stuff wrong with it's tyre model to a greater or lesser degree. It's just that the GTS model is a bit more wrong than most. Tuning might help make the cars more driveable, but it's plastering over a problem that shouldn't exist. Hence why I push back against the premise of this thread, that the idea that there's something incorrect about the physics of GTS is a myth.

Tuning is not a solution, it's making the best of an undesirable situation. But to give you credit, it is something that potentially improves the experience. You're right that people should tune when a car doesn't drive the way they like it. If people wanted to post advice on how to tune the FF cars to drive as realistically as possible that's useful. It just doesn't change that there are fundamental flaws in the physics that shouldn't be ignored.

Okay, but that half he was specifically giving as an example of what is wrong with the model and as you say that is what they got right.

No, that's just your selective quoting. Look at the first four sentences rather than only the first two.

One such situation is getting on the power on corner exit. Do it too early and you'll understeer straight off the track or into a wall. The only way to solve this issue is by lifting off the power completely and having another stab at the throttle. However when you lift off the throttle the front grips up too much, forcing you to reduce your steering angle. It's soo frustrating because it doesn't make any sense.

They're all relevant to describing the situation. The problem is not just the power understeer, it's also about how the game responds when you try to correct for that behavior. How it responds to lifting off the power is not correct.

Seriously mate, try reading what people actually say instead of skimming for material that you can quote mine to try and support your pre-formed conclusions.

 

[Dave A]

Tire physics is why we having issues with to much understeer on FWD cars.

Nope, they could be improved of course, but they are not the sole determining factor. The underlying physics engine is flawed unfortunately, we can easilly determine this by considering how much more broken the physics in fwd cars are compared to rwd cars for example.

They could both be improved, but the fwd cars have much bigger fundamental issues, the tyre physics don't explain a discrepancy like that, nor do they account for the lack of LSD and over-tendancy towards understter and complete lack of oversteer. If they're too grippy, they would understeer less, if they were not grippy enough you would surely get lift off oversteer at will. It's not the tyres, that's quite easy to dismiss.

EDIT: I am not claiming the tyre physics are all good and can't/don't need to be improved by the way, just that they are not the primary factor here.

 

[CBH]

Nope, they could be improved of course, but they are not the sole determining factor. The underlying physics engine is flawed unfortunately, we can easilly determine this by considering how much more broken the physics in fwd cars are compared to rwd cars for example.

They could both be improved, but the fwd cars have much bigger fundamental issues, the tyre physics don't explain a discrepancy like that, nor do they account for the lack of LSD and over-tendancy towards understter and complete lack of oversteer. If they're too grippy, they would understeer less, if they were not grippy enough you would surely get lift off oversteer at will. It's not the tyres, that's quite easy to dismiss.

If the tire physics were correct in GTS, it will be a different scenario about FWD cars and the way they handle on the track.

 

[Imari]

Nope, they could be improved of course, but they are not the sole determining factor. The underlying physics engine is flawed unfortunately, we can easilly determine this by considering how much more broken the physics in fwd cars are compared to rwd cars for exsample. They could both be improved, but the fwd cars have much bigger findamental issues, the tyre physics don't explain a discrepancy like that, nor do they account for the lack of LSD and over-tendancy towards understter and complete lack of oversteer. If they're too grtippy, they would understeer less, if they were not grippy enough you would surely get lift off oversteer at will. It's not the tyres, that's quite easy to dismiss.

It's unclear whether it's the actual physical weight transfer that's wrong, or that the rubber compounds don't alter grip appropriately according to the weight on them. I'm dubious about it being either of those though, because the first is basic high school physics and the second falls directly out of even the most basic tyre model. If Polyphony haven't got either of those right in 25-odd years then there's no hope.

Personally if I had to pick one thing, my guess would be the dynamic contact patch simulation. I'm not sure it exists. The contact patch not changing size in response to weight transfer would go a long way to explaining the inability to get cars to move around as you load up the front or rear tyres. This affects all cars, but it affects FF cars most because they rely entirely on weight transfer to modulate the available grip at the rear tyres. FR and MR cars to some extent can get away with using power to slip the tyres, although this would go some way to explaining some of the odd behaviours that MR cars have as well.

This would be my guess simply because tyre pressures aren't available as a modifiable option for the player. That was weird in 2010, and it gets weirder every game it's still not there. It feels like a big red flag for a simulation. If the tyre pressure was in the simulation as a variable at any level, then it would be relatively trivial to expose it to the player for tuning. But if it's not in the simulation at all, then potentially a bunch of things that would also rely on tyre pressure aren't dynamically modelled either, like a dynamic contact patch.

It's not beyond belief that these things are hard-coded as constants. It would just be very, very stupid.

Of course, this doesn't explain the poor LSD simulation. That's another area where FFs are disproportionately impacted simply because of how reliant fast FF cars are on LSDs. But I'm not knowledgeable or experienced enough about LSDs to get too deep into that. More experienced people like @Scaff can field that one.

 

[Scaff]

compared to rear wheel drive cars which tend to oversteer out of corners on power.

Actually not true.

The vast majority of RWD road cars are set-up to initially understeer on power out of corners (mainly via suspension geometry) and require you to throttle past that, which assuming the car has sufficient torque and front-end grip to do so), manufacturers do this to basically ensure that owners don't get themselves into too much trouble, as the average driver is used to cars understeering. TCS and SCS systems are also set-up to bias in this way for the exact same reason. The vast majority of road-cars (regardless of drive train layout) are engineered to understeer on the limit, as OEM's really don't like legal cases for accidents. It tends to only be the performance focused segment that is set-up differently.

As an example of how far this can be taken, my wife's car is RR, yet I can 100% assure you that you would never, ever get it to oversteer, not off the throttle, not under braking, not under throttle. As the Gen 3 Twingo/Smart ForFour, despite being a rear-wheel drive, rear-engined car, is designed to be utterly benign to drive, with it's default, engineered in bias being understeer in all circumstances.

 

[Dave A]

If the tire physics were correct in GTS, it will be a different scenario about FWD cars and the way they handle on the track.

Of course it would change it, no one is saying it wouldn't change it, but as @Imari just mentioned above, it wouldn't fix the lack of LSD or the some of the other issues with the fwd cars that they tyre's cannot explain.

Though @Imari's consideration of contact patch simulation could certainly be a notable factor regarding some aspects, it's not a catch all as you seem to suggest. Better tyre contact simulation wouldn't create simulated LSD and I don't see how it would prevent high powered fwd cars from understeering when they shouldn't without further improvements to the underlying physics model.

 

[Magog]

Actually not true.

The vast majority of RWD road cars are set-up to initially understeer on power out of corners (mainly via suspension geometry) and require you to throttle past that, which assuming the car has sufficient torque and front-end grip to do so), manufacturers do this to basically ensure that owners don't get themselves into too much trouble, as the average driver is used to cars understeering. TCS and SCS systems are also set-up to bias in this way for the exact same reason. The vast majority of road-cars (regardless of drive train layout) are engineered to understeer on the limit, as OEM's really don't like legal cases for accidents. It tends to only be the performance focused segment that is set-up differently.

As an example of how far this can be taken, my wife's car is RR, yet I can 100% assure you that you would never, ever get it to oversteer, not off the throttle, not under braking, not under throttle. As the Gen 3 Twingo/Smart ForFour, despite being a rear-wheel drive, rear-engined car, is designed to be utterly benign to drive, with it's default, engineered in bias being understeer in all circumstances.

I don't get your point. Yes, you can have electronic controls that limit and control acceleration and braking for you so that oversteer isn't an issue but that doesn't change the fact that without those driving assists a rear wheel drive car is more likely to oversteer and a FF car is more likely to understeer on power out of a corner. You're never on the limit because the car is actively preventing you from reaching or exceeding the limit in the scenario you gave.

 

[Dave A]

I don't get your point. Yes, you can have electronic controls that limit and control acceleration and braking for you so that oversteer isn't an issue but that doesn't change the fact that without those driving assists a rear wheel drive car is more likely to oversteer and a FF car is more likely to understeer on power out of a corner. You're never on the limit because the car is actively preventing you from reaching or exceeding the limit in the scenario you gave.

If the game is sumulating real life, then it's simulating the way the cars are set up and behave in real life, that means far more often than not, road cars will understeer before they oversteer regardless of which wheels are driven. Of course you will get some exceptions, the same is also true of most racing cars, though this is often set up driver specific, and some drivers prefer a slight tendancy towards oversteer. And also as @Scaff pointed out, with enough power you often can overcome the understeer and initiate oversteer, but that will be significantly harder to do in some cars (if even possible).

 

[Scaff]

I don't get your point. Yes, you can have electronic controls that limit and control acceleration and braking for you so that oversteer isn't an issue but that doesn't change the fact that without those driving assists a rear wheel drive car is more likely to oversteer and a FF car is more likely to understeer on power out of a corner. You're never on the limit because the car is actively preventing you from reaching or exceeding the limit in the scenario you gave.

A couple of points.

• Active safety features don't always engage before you reach the limit, my own car has a stability control setting that allows slip to occur before it intervenes and when it comes to race cars that run TCS as standard that's exactly what you are dialing in, how much over the limit you are allowing it to go before intervening, which is why running GT3/GT4 cars without TCS and ABS is utterly inaccurate in any sim (with one GT4 exception) and should always be the slower option.
• You have utterly ignored my point about suspension geometry, set-up, and vehicle design.

But I'm quite sure you have a few decades of industry experience over me on this, so please explain, step-by-step, the physics of what is happening in terms of vehicle dynamics to show that RWDs will tend to oversteer on-power, please account for the degree of throttle application, grip at each corner, load transfer and feel free to reference standard texts such as Miliken and Miliken.

 

[Magog]

If the game is sumulating real life, then it's simulating the way the cars are set up and behave in real life, that means far more often than not, road cars will understeer before they oversteer regardless of which wheels are driven. Of course you will get some exceptions, the same is also true of most racing cars, though this is often set up driver specific, and some drivers prefer a slight tendancy towards oversteer. And also as @Scaff pointed out, with enough power you often can overcome the understeer and initiate oversteer, but that will be significantly harder to do in some cars (if even possible).

If you crank the traction control to maximum and turn on active stability management you could get the cars to mimic that behavior. I'm not sure why you would want to though as GT is meant to be a racing game and giving up speed for predictable understeer is counterproductive.

 

[Dave A]

If you crank the traction control to maximum and turn on active stability management you could get the cars to mimic that behavior. I'm not sure why you would want to though as GT is meant to be a racing game and giving up speed for predictable understeer is counterproductive.

Traction control isn't how you set up a car to understeer.

 

[Scaff]

I'm not sure why you would want to though as GT is meant to be a racing game and giving up speed for predictable understeer is counterproductive.

Odd then that a lot of racing drivers, including many very successful ones such as LH, actually prefer an understeer bias!

Lewis Hamilton column: Racing has become more strategic

In his latest BBC Sport column, Lewis Hamilton talks about strategic racing and his car collection, as well as answering your questions

www.bbc.co.uk

Oh and you clearly are not reading what is being posted and it shows.

 

[Magog]

Traction control isn't how you set up a car to understeer.

If you don't allow the rear wheels to slip a bit as turning you're more likely to understeer.

Odd then that a lot of racing drivers, including many very successful ones such as LH!

Lewis Hamilton column: Racing has become more strategic

In his latest BBC Sport column, Lewis Hamilton talks about strategic racing and his car collection, as well as answering your questions

www.bbc.co.uk

Oh and you clearly are not reading what is being posted and it shows.

As you yourself said a small amount of slip is beneficial. F1 is a bit different as their awful tire design is specifically meant to wear quickly to give better shows for the audience when in fact it ruined the series.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

@Magog
Motorcycles (RWD of course) also always understeer on acceleration, on asphalt, unless you accelerate beyond available grip and start drifting (IRL on street that would be crashing).
Motorcycles are an example of a simplified car in this discussion, I'd say.

 

[Magog]

@Magog
Motorcycles (RWD of course) also always understeer on acceleration, on asphalt, unless you accelerate beyond available grip and start drifting (IRL on street that would be crashing).
Motorcycles are an example of a simplified car in this discussion, I'd say.

I don't think a motorcycle can be compared to a car in this instance because a small amount of slippage is beneficial to turning a car.

 

[Scaff]

If you don't allow the rear wheels to slip a bit as turning you're more likely to understeer.

Please describe what understeer and oversteer are in terms of actual vehicle dynamics, as you're entering into the realms of nonsense now.

As you yourself said a small amount of slip is beneficial. F1 is a bit different as their awful tire design is specifically meant to wear quickly to give better shows for the audience when in fact it ruined the series.

That has bugger all to do with under or oversteer at all, but I once again challenge you to prove me wrong. Describe in detail, referencing standard texts such as Milikin and Miliken exactly why what you say is accurate (it's not, but this should be fun).