Myth: Gran Turismo Sport and thus GT7 have unrealistic Front Wheel Drive Understeer. Status: BUSTED!

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I mean sure, when you're driving around 10 seconds off the pace, I guess reality can be whatever you want :lol:

I blame PD for brainwashing an entire generation of sim racers with their "The Real Driving Simulator" slogan, despite their physics engine still having 20 year old quirks.

Ever see a Time Attack FF car setup like this in real life? :lol:

First off, Willow Springs sucks. Secondly as you can see I barely play online I put in like one lap just to see what the mode was.
 
I mean sure, when you're driving around 10 seconds off the pace, I guess reality can be whatever you want :lol:
To be fair, everything is agile and nippy if you drive it slow enough. It's the solution to every handling problem in the world, just drive slower. Not terribly competitive, but if you're only racing against Gran Turismo AI it's probably easy to think that you're God's gift to motorsport after a few thousand miles of continuous winning.

Who wants to tell him that the AI is garbage?
 
Homer Simpson Reaction GIF by reactionseditor
 
They are relatively speaking… have you ever driven one?
No, but there plenty of testimony from drivers that they are. I say relatively because obviously compared to a road going Ford Focus they're still going to be more work. But compared to other, less friendly race cars that will try to kill you at any instance, they are.

Here is a regular journalist driving one, in the wet no less.



He talks about how easy it is to drive from 3:50 through to the end, and in particular how the TCS and ABS really helped, even better than the systems on road cars.
 
No, but there plenty of testimony from drivers that they are. I say relatively because obviously compared to a road going Ford Focus they're still going to be more work. But compared to other, less friendly race cars that will try to kill you at any instance, they are.

Here is a regular journalist driving one, in the wet no less.



He talks about how easy it is to drive from 3:50 through to the end, and in particular how the TCS and ABS really helped, even better than the systems on road cars.

Regular journalist? Bro this is someone who drives cars as his job so he’ll have a better understanding and feel for a car than the average person, throw in your Nan and see if she can drive it
 
Regular journalist? Bro this is someone who drives cars as his job so he’ll have a better understanding and feel for a car than the average person, throw in your Nan and see if she can drive it
You seem to be moving the goalposts. I said they're easy to drive, obviously speaking generally. I never said they were easy to drive for OAPs.

If you want to see what happens when someone who drives cars for a living tries to drive a race car that isn't easy, watch the footage of Richard Hammond driving a Renault F1 car.
 
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If a race car is truly difficult to drive it is only because the team did a horrible job on the setup. A good setup will be as easy as possible to drive so the driver can easily get to the limit and keep it there, it’s hard to do that when you are struggling just to keep the car on the track.
 
I don't know about race cars, but race bikes, or even enduro or large adventure bikes, can be hellish to ride for a beginner. But in the right hands, they're nimble and quick. Most of it has to do with the engine, torque curve, gear box and clutch. None of it would apply if they were electric.
I guess that there are race cars that are similar in that respect.
 
Let’s derail some more.
Here’s my original quote: That’s the thing, real GT3 and GT4 cars are meant to be easy to drive for customers.

If one can afford the means to own a GT3 and/or GT4 car, they certainly have qualified to race one. Novice, amateur, professional.

Here, we have two people never drove a real race. One person in one of the videos even says anyone can pay a certain amount of Aussie bucks to try one out.



So, if a regular person, whatever continent they live on, want to search where they can drive such cars, maybe they’ll have the opportunity. However, GT3 & GT4(especially GT4), were made to keep costs low(so participants didn’t need to be run by a works team) and ease of use for gentlemen drivers.
 
How about this week's race C meta car, the Grp. 1 Toyota 4WD? Is the understeer on acceleration "realistic"? To me, it behaves very similar to the FWD race cars.
 
How about this week's race C meta car, the Grp. 1 Toyota 4WD? Is the understeer on acceleration "realistic"? To me, it behaves very similar to the FWD race cars.
BoP settings would make it feel similar to a FWD race car.
 
BoP settings would make it feel similar to a FWD race car.
How does BoP affect it in such a fundamental way?

Considering the LSD discussion, if this car as well had it, it should rotate super well when you hit the throttle out of corners. Instead it understeers.
(Just don't hit anything slippery with the rear tyres while full throttle.)
 
How does BoP affect it in such a fundamental way?

Considering the LSD discussion, if this car as well had it, it should rotate super well when you hit the throttle out of corners. Instead it understeers.
(Just don't hit anything slippery with the rear tyres while full throttle.)
The Gr.1 Toyota 4WD I tested it with and without BoP, with BoP undesteer without BoP no understeer with stock settings.
This was done using my Fanatec CSL GT DD wheel, and I had no issues for several laps with this race car stock without BoP.
 
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OK we get it... You proved it with a replay video. That's obviously a much stronger evidence than all of us could gather in 4 years of ongoing discussion that's been going on.
 

I mean sure, when you're driving around 10 seconds off the pace, I guess reality can be whatever you want :lol:

I blame PD for brainwashing an entire generation of sim racers with their "The Real Driving Simulator" slogan, despite their physics engine still having 20 year old quirks.

Ever see a Time Attack FF car setup like this in real life? :lol:


This bit of trolling made me want to see if I could do better. And yes I'm not fast but I'm not as bad as my old times showed. 😀

 
This bit of trolling made me want to see if I could do better. And yes I'm not fast but I'm not as bad as my old times showed. 😀

My dude, you posted a video. We can see how not fast you are. But the real concern for someone whose opinion on car dynamics we're supposed to take seriously is not pure speed, it's that you're not in control of the car. You're all over the place. You hit other cars. You miss apexes, you miss braking points. You can't keep the car on the road.

For comparison, someone who has learned the track and has good car control and consistency.



I have no doubt that given enough time you can string together a single lap that's both legal and moderately quick. I have serious doubts that you could do it consistently. Can you run half a dozen laps within half a second of each other?

The inability to run two clean laps in a video that you yourself selected as an example of physics is just a massive red flag. Two clean laps against GT AI should not be a challenge for anyone with sufficient driving skill to make their opinion worth more than a sack of slugs. Especially in a car that is neither particularly fast or particularly difficult to drive.

If you can't control the car well enough to run a clean line, you can't control the car well enough to feel whether it's responding correctly to your inputs. That's what it boils down to. You can try and blame the car if you like, but we all know it's not.

It's okay to suck, we all started there. But at least have the self-awareness to recognise that you're not a good enough driver to have meaningful input on how cars should drive. Go away and practice, watch and read some of the resources that you've been given. Develop a little humility.

If you put some work in then maybe by the time GT7 comes out you'll be at the stage where you know enough and have the skills to have a real opinion on the state of the physics.
 
My dude, you posted a video. We can see how not fast you are. But the real concern for someone whose opinion on car dynamics we're supposed to take seriously is not pure speed, it's that you're not in control of the car. You're all over the place. You hit other cars. You miss apexes, you miss braking points. You can't keep the car on the road.

For comparison, someone who has learned the track and has good car control and consistency.



I have no doubt that given enough time you can string together a single lap that's both legal and moderately quick. I have serious doubts that you could do it consistently. Can you run half a dozen laps within half a second of each other?

The inability to run two clean laps in a video that you yourself selected as an example of physics is just a massive red flag. Two clean laps against GT AI should not be a challenge for anyone with sufficient driving skill to make their opinion worth more than a sack of slugs. Especially in a car that is neither particularly fast or particularly difficult to drive.

If you can't control the car well enough to run a clean line, you can't control the car well enough to feel whether it's responding correctly to your inputs. That's what it boils down to. You can try and blame the car if you like, but we all know it's not.

It's okay to suck, we all started there. But at least have the self-awareness to recognise that you're not a good enough driver to have meaningful input on how cars should drive. Go away and practice, watch and read some of the resources that you've been given. Develop a little humility.

If you put some work in then maybe by the time GT7 comes out you'll be at the stage where you know enough and have the skills to have a real opinion on the state of the physics.

I wasn't trying to run the lap clean I was trying to push the car past its limits and induce understeer. I'm more than capable of keeping a car on the track. 🙄
 
I wasn't trying to run the lap clean I was trying to push the car past its limits and induce understeer.

...therefore proving the people who were (correctly) criticizing your beliefs in the physics of GTS, and subsequently, GT7, when it comes to FF cars is actually good, when they clearly aren't.

I'm more than capable of keeping a car on the track. 🙄

Debatable, considering the supposed infallible evidence you have provided.
 
...therefore proving the people who were (correctly) criticizing your beliefs in the physics of GTS, and subsequently, GT7, when it comes to FF cars is actually good, when they clearly aren't.



Debatable, considering the supposed infallible evidence you have provided.
I yield to the superior knowledge of my fellow forum goers.
 
I wasn't trying to run the lap clean I was trying to push the car past its limits and induce understeer.
So... you posted a video of you driving badly to prove that the game drives models understeer well?



Way I see it, until you fix the problem between the chair and the steering wheel it's pretty hard to see any flaws that may or may not exist in the game. Also, you need to know what understeer is in order to try and induce it.
I'm more than capable of keeping a car on the track. 🙄
So why wouldn't you do it? What do you think there is to be gained by driving a car so aggressively that you hit other stuff? When people talk about pushing a car past it's limits to analyse it's behaviour, they mean just a little past it's limits. Ie. in the zone where actual quick racing drivers will spend a lot of their time, as that's where the car is at it's most dynamic and where the mechanical design and setup of the car has a large effect on the behaviour.

Nobody is interested in how the car behaves way beyond it's limits, because the behaviour there is a crash as you so ably demonstrated.

Do you understand what it is you're even trying to do here? Do you have any idea what "unrealistic front wheel drive understeer" might even look like, and in what situations it might show up? Because without that you're just a random dude Mario Karting his way around the track and posting it like it's proof of anything other than your inability to control a car.

I'll give you a hint - most people's problems with the FWD cars are not that they don't understeer enough, it's that they understeer in situations they shouldn't. If you're trying to show how much understeer you can get in all situations in GTS then you're just proving the point.
 
I have some seat times on various 911-based race cars, generations of RSRs, GT3 Rs, Clubsports (mostly 10-100 hours, but 100+ hours on Clubsports). They all have one thing in common that is significantly harder than the base road car (3RS/2RS). Getting in and out of the car. Due to the roll cage and full bucket seat, it's significantly harder to do so compare to the stock road cars. If you're a big dude, it's impossible to getting in and out without removing the steering wheel, and even after the removal of steering wheel, you're probably going to need someone to help you to get in or out of the car. Tough to get in and out with your dignity in tact.

But you can also make the road car harder to get in or out. Slap a full roll cage and bucket seat on smaller cars (like S2K or Elise), then it would be even more difficult than many race cars. Even the base Elise/Exige (with the roof and steering wheel) is only slightly easier than the race cars. So after the roll cage...

Other than that, they aren't significantly harder to drive, as long as you're driving it in Winter/Autumn/Fall or driving one with air conditioning (recent models have one as an option, but if you drive one without AC in Summer, then it's very difficult to do it for a long session). When you drive LM GT3 or GTE cars for the first time, you need some time to adjust your braking points, because the correct braking points for those cars definitely feel very wrong for anyone who're mostly familiar with road cars on the same tracks. And that's about it.

Of course driving it to the limit is somewhat harder than the road car variants, but it's because they're faster cars, not because they're race cars. Driving the faster road car to the limit is also harder than driving the slow road car to the limit. That's the reason why many people start with slower FWD cars, and graduate to RWD cars and then gradually faster RWD cars. If you're already familiar with GT3 RS, enough to produce a good time on GT3 RS (within 0.5% of the best lap of the same setup/tire car, which was set by one of the good pro drivers not a bad one), it doesn't take too long to bring up the pace to the acceptable level.

But it's true that if you're only familiar with FWD cars or 300hp RWD cars enough to produce a good lap, then you have long way up ahead (at least hundreds of hours). If you can't even produce a good lap with slower cars, or don't have any experience on track, expect a thousand hours of seat time ahead at the very minimum (this figure assumes you're fit to do that, and if you don't expect an order of magnitude higher seat time). The amount of time required itself is not a big problem, but many people can't do that because they're very costly. For a cheap slow FWD car, it's roughly $300-500/hour, and it shoot up to $3-5k/hour for faster road cars, and you need at least a thousand hours from various speed category.
 
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