Nürburgring: GT4 vs EPR vs Real

[ZeratulSG]

Gotta agree with you there Gabkicks. Even if Forza or Enthusia are somehow deemed "better" than GT4 (which IMO they aren't) they don't have the legacy of KY. They're just there to make money (not that PD aren't, but you get my drift).

It's kinda like the BWM 1-Series or Audi A3 Sportback...they have no legacy, no passion to them, they're just car made to fill a gap in the marketplace and to make money (oh, and they're ugly). No thanks 👎

On the side-by-side comparison for GT4 and Forza, there's a vid floating around GTP somewhere. A bit short, but you can see the differences. I think both games were prerelease at the time though, so I don't know how accurate they still are. Check the downloads section.

 

[userone]

Yeah... the Ring is definitely too short in GT4. I saw that video with GT4 next to real life and the GT4 BMW 120i could keep up with a real life RUF.... makes no sense.

That video is time stretched to allow the BMW to keep up, it was released when we only had the BMW demo. Says so on the authors site.

 

[FooAtari]

Gotta agree with you there Gabkicks. Even if Forza or Enthusia are somehow deemed "better" than GT4 (which IMO they aren't) they don't have the legacy of KY. They're just there to make money (not that PD aren't, but you get my drift).

It's kinda like the BWM 1-Series or Audi A3 Sportback...they have no legacy, no passion to them, they're just car made to fill a gap in the marketplace and to make money (oh, and they're ugly). No thanks 👎

On the side-by-side comparison for GT4 and Forza, there's a vid floating around GTP somewhere. A bit short, but you can see the differences. I think both games were prerelease at the time though, so I don't know how accurate they still are. Check the downloads section.

I couldnt give a toss about the legacy myself, I just to play the best games. IMO Forza and GT4 are both excellent games, but both also have some big flaws. Thats why I play and enjoy both.
But I have to admit that I have to give the nod to Forza, because their really isnt anything worth mentioning IMO that GT4 does that Forza doesnt (well ok, except FFB which a big plus), but their is quite alot that Forza does which GT doesnt. Intelligent A.I., Damage and online play.
GT4 though is still a great game, and its worth owning and playing.

 

[SavageEvil]

Question about the 'Ring. In Forza it's listed as 13+ miles in length. The thing is after driving around it over and over, i can't seem to find where it got longer than the one in GT4. Can anyone point out where it got longer, because i can't find that for the life of me. I'll try to compare lap times with real life car times on the Nürb, why cause the Nür is the most comprehensive course i've driven in a videogame. Anyway back to more testing. Elise 111R with max hp.

 

[kranzx]

Question about the 'Ring. In Forza it's listed as 13+ miles in length. The thing is after driving around it over and over, i can't seem to find where it got longer than the one in GT4. Can anyone point out where it got longer, because i can't find that for the life of me. I'll try to compare lap times with real life car times on the Nürb, why cause the Nür is the most comprehensive course i've driven in a videogame. Anyway back to more testing. Elise 111R with max hp.

may be you wanna check this out. i guess this is the full F1 track. last corner before the finishing line, you go straight instead of turning right.

Hans Stuck M3 GTR Nurburgring - 53MB

http://www.dgtalpimp.com/m3_gtr_nurburgring.wmv

 

[rsmithdrift]

Road Atlanta is spot on as well in Forza.
.

Wrong, VERY, I've played Forza's Road Atlanta, and I've been to Road Atlanta twice and they got the last section from the downhill braking zone before the chicane, (the start of the Formula D section) to the start finish line WAY off. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I have to drive through the gravel 3 TIMES to follow where the actual track goes. Also the Formula D drift loop/horse shoe is conspicuously absent. Where'd it go?? I don't think the guys at Microsoft even went to Road Atlanta before putting the track in the game.

And as for the 'Ring, Forza has the worst version of the ring I've ever played. But Forza is a much funner game, mainly because the AI can actually keep up sometimes, and the physics aren't flawed as much.

 

[FooAtari]

Wrong, VERY, I've played Forza's Road Atlanta, and I've been to Road Atlanta twice and they got the last section from the downhill braking zone before the chicane, (the start of the Formula D section) to the start finish line WAY off. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I have to drive through the gravel 3 TIMES to follow where the actual track goes. Also the Formula D drift loop/horse shoe is conspicuously absent. Where'd it go?? I don't think the guys at Microsoft even went to Road Atlanta before putting the track in the game.

And as for the 'Ring, Forza has the worst version of the ring I've ever played. But Forza is a much funner game, mainly because the AI can actually keep up sometimes, and the physics aren't flawed as much.

From the in car videos I have seen of Road Atlanta, Forza looked pretty good, but I havent been their so am not going to argue with you Also the Popular Science feature of Forza comapred the game version of Road Atlanta very favourably to the real circuit, including positive views from a race driver, I forget his name, who tests at RA very regularly.

And as for Forza having the worst Ring, you havent played PGR 2 have you?

 

[rsmithdrift]

From the in car videos I have seen of Road Atlanta, Forza looked pretty good, but I havent been their so am not going to argue with you Also the Popular Science feature of Forza comapred the game version of Road Atlanta very favourably to the real circuit, including positive views from a race driver, I forget his name, who tests at RA very regularly.

And as for Forza having the worst Ring, you havent played PGR 2 have you?

Yeah, it's only the last part before the hill and the bridge. Turns 10b, the Horseshoe, and 12 are just plain wrong. And the horseshoe is MIA. But the rest of the track is SPOT ON. The esses are perfect.

Yes, I played PGR 2, but I only rented it so I never beat it. (not even close) So yeah, I never drove the Ring on it. I heard it was about the same though, guess not huh?

 

[FooAtari]

Yeah, it's only the last part before the hill and the bridge. Turns 10b, the Horseshoe, and 12 are just plain wrong. And the horseshoe is MIA. But the rest of the track is SPOT ON. The esses are perfect.

Yes, I played PGR 2, but I only rented it so I never beat it. (not even close) So yeah, I never drove the Ring on it. I heard it was about the same though, guess not huh?

Fair enough, ill take your word for it!

And the ring in PGR 2 was probably thorwn together as an afterthought. It was fun to race on, but really was terrible as far as realistic layout goes!

 

[Buzzin Hornet]

I havent read all the thread yet but for anyone that is interested here is a vid whilst on my annual trip to the ring last weekend. It was damp whilst I was driving hence my slow lap of 9.40. my fastest lap was 8.57 including the pits (as the DTM was on and we were forced into the pits as a matter of safety) This takes about 20 seconds so realisticly I was lapping at around 8.37 on a dry track. As I say this video is not my fastest but will give you and idea of the elevation and width of the track. I have completed nearly 200 laps of the ring and can say I still dont know it all yet. Direction of a trrack merely tells you where you are going. True knowledge is knowing when things have changed over time, like change in camber and grip of surface even down to new marks on the armco or walls. In addition to this I reckon it will take at least another 200 to have a complete perfect lap taking every corner just right. In addition to this add another 200 to understand how the track grip levels change in various weather conditions.
http://www.seatcupra.net/users/coops/Nurburg2005.mov

 

[FooAtari]

I havent read all the thread yet but for anyone that is interested here is a vid whilst on my annual trip to the ring last weekend. It was damp whilst I was driving hence my slow lap of 9.40. my fastest lap was 8.57 including the pits (as the DTM was on and we were forced into the pits as a matter of safety) This takes about 20 seconds so realisticly I was lapping at around 8.37 on a dry track. As I say this video is not my fastest but will give you and idea of the elevation and width of the track. I have completed nearly 200 laps of the ring and can say I still dont know it all yet. Direction of a trrack merely tells you where you are going. True knowledge is knowing when things have changed over time, like change in camber and grip of surface even down to new marks on the armco or walls. In addition to this I reckon it will take at least another 200 to have a complete perfect lap taking every corner just right. In addition to this add another 200 to understand how the track grip levels change in various weather conditions.
http://www.seatcupra.net/users/coops/Nurburg2005.mov

Thanks man! Out of Interest what car you in?

Have you played Forza at all? Having very recently driven the ring how do GT and Forza (if you have played it) compare in actual track acuuracy, corners, width length etc. And also trackside side detail?

I read somewhere that when Formula 1 raced there the drivers used to remeber the track in sections, as they probably only did maybe 45 laps in a race weekend (at a complete guess based on 15 lap races) and it wasnt possible to remember every corner.

Also check out the original ring in 1927, they should use that in racing games!!


1927 Ring

Or even just use the circuit used for the 24hour race now (i think)

Full Ring

P.S. Anyone else finding the video stutters alot?

 

[Buzzin Hornet]

Thanks man! Out of Interest what car you in?

Have you played Forza at all? Having very recently driven the ring how do GT and Forza (if you have played it) compare in actual track acuuracy, corners, width length etc. And also trackside side detail?

I read somewhere that when Formula 1 raced there the drivers used to remeber the track in sections, as they probably only did maybe 45 laps in a race weekend (at a complete guess based on 15 lap races) and it wasnt possible to remember every corner.

Also check out the original ring in 1927, they should use that in racing games!!


1927 Ring

Or even just use the circuit used for the 24hour race now (i think)

Full Ring

P.S. Anyone else finding the video stutters alot?

The zed logo on the steering wheel should give it away! 350Z
If it is stuttering its you download bandwidth as its on a very big pipe. (my friend runs an isp)
you can download and save it you know?

 

[FooAtari]

The zed logo on the steering wheel should give it away! 350Z
If it is stuttering its you download bandwidth as its on a very big pipe. (my friend runs an isp)
you can download and save it you know?

I have...

 

[Wolfe]

That picture-in-picture GT4 vs RL vid just about proved everything I was saying about GT4 being not quite right. The track was too narrow (compared to the CTR vid, which is also 2D), some of the turns and hills were off, and the fact that you had to use "economy tires" (which were squealing much more than in the real vid btw) to come close to matching (yet still beating) the lap time of the no-doubt performance-tire-equipped real-life car is just....ridiculous.

That isn't to say I don't appreciate the effort you put into that lap and video. I really do respect you for the effort you put into it, driving a CTR on the Nürburgring with N1's, because I just can't play GT4 at all anymore. It's just...stupid, silly slot-car physics, and I get angry and consider throwing the disc across the room as I take it out to replace it with Enthusia after playing GT4 for 2 minutes...

Oh, and I seriously hope no one here has been tricked into believing that Forza is realistic in any way, shape, or form. It's even less realistic than GT4 is. And Forza's 'ring? Here's the team that designed it:

 

[rsmithdrift]

That picture-in-picture GT4 vs RL vid just about proved everything I was saying about GT4 being not quite right. The track was too narrow (compared to the CTR vid, which is also 2D), some of the turns and hills were off, and the fact that you had to use "economy tires" (which were squealing much more than in the real vid btw) to come close to matching (yet still beating) the lap time of the no-doubt performance-tire-equipped real-life car is just....ridiculous.

That isn't to say I don't appreciate the effort you put into that lap and video. I really do respect you for the effort you put into it, driving a CTR on the Nürburgring with N1's, because I just can't play GT4 at all anymore. It's just...stupid, silly slot-car physics, and I get angry and consider throwing the disc across the room as I take it out to replace it with Enthusia after playing GT4 for 2 minutes...

Oh, and I seriously hope no one here has been tricked into believing that Forza is realistic in any way, shape, or form. It's even less realistic than GT4 is. And Forza's 'ring? Here's the team that designed it:

Honestly, I still think GT4 has the best 'Ring. Enthusia is way too smooth and wide IMO. The real life driver was in heavy traffic during the whole lap and in real life you won't push a car as fast down the straights, so I think that their lap times were just about perfect.

And the .mov vid about 3-4 posts ^ with the 350z in car is a 2005 version of the real 'Ring and it looks like they repaved alot of it to me. Has it been repaved recently, Buzzin Hornet?
And if the vid won't play on your comp, then open up Real Player then open the vid. If it stutters alot just back it up then hit play again.

 

[SavageEvil]

Honestly, I still think GT4 has the best 'Ring. Enthusia is way too smooth and wide IMO. The real life driver was in heavy traffic during the whole lap and in real life you won't push a car as fast down the straights, so I think that their lap times were just about perfect.

And the .mov vid about 3-4 posts ^ with the 350z in car is a 2005 version of the real 'Ring and it looks like they repaved alot of it to me. Has it been repaved recently, Buzzin Hornet?
And if the vid won't play on your comp, then open up Real Player then open the vid. If it stutters alot just back it up then hit play again.

Isn't there a post about an F1 driver who played GT4's 'Ring, and he said that when he went back to the real ring, it was bumpier than he remembered in GT4.

Anyway After watching the side by side vids, gt4 ring is soo close to the vid, a few things are off, but up against all others i've driven in other games it's the closest one to the real life one.

 

[Wolfe]

Honestly, I still think GT4 has the best 'Ring. Enthusia is way too smooth and wide IMO. The real life driver was in heavy traffic during the whole lap and in real life you won't push a car as fast down the straights, so I think that their lap times were just about perfect.

And the .mov vid about 3-4 posts ^ with the 350z in car is a 2005 version of the real 'Ring and it looks like they repaved alot of it to me. Has it been repaved recently, Buzzin Hornet?
And if the vid won't play on your comp, then open up Real Player then open the vid. If it stutters alot just back it up then hit play again.

If you didn't read the first post of this topic, I said that Enthusia's ring is too smooth. Also, Stefan (that's the name of the guy behind the wheel of the real RUF?) pulled some pretty crazy ****, while the driver of the GT4 comparison was obviously holding back to try and match the time.

As far as the track being repaved, I read somewhere that they repave the track periodically, one section at a time. As for how often, I have no idea.

 

[Wolfe]

Isn't there a post about an F1 driver who played GT4's 'Ring, and he said that when he went back to the real ring, it was bumpier than he remembered in GT4.

Bumpiness is perceived better when you're actually in a car, but if there was one thing that I would concede -- as far as GT4 being more realistic than I said in the first post here -- it's that the track isn't too bumpy.

Anyway After watching the side by side vids, gt4 ring is soo close to the vid, a few things are off, but up against all others i've driven in other games it's the closest one to the real life one.

You have the right to your opinion, but if you haven't played Enthusia yet, I ask that you give the Enthusia 'ring a try and see if you agree with what I've said at the beginning of this thread.

 

[jase86]

Wow, this is a nice thread, sooo many people are looking into this game and analysing it so much, nice work people, very interesting reads and opinions.

Im just amazed at the insane driver the Picture in picture comparison of gt4 vs real life, that guy is abosolutely insane and in the real life guy!! heheh

Back onto topic.. I love racing Nburg, as far as i can tell its a pretty good copy, not exact copy, but good enough, this game was designed by humans, and generally make mistakes a lot!! only thing i have to object to is the bumps, but honestly i wouldnt know, because i have never driven on the Nburg, nor have i seen it in real life, just only on video clips, and with the video comparison ive just downloaded and watched. GT4's version isnt too bad, it was quite good.

Maybe with the ps3 coming out with bigger capacity disks, and better graphics amd hardware, its better game playing for all of us... and for some of us maybe more realism to the cars and tracks...



Gran Turismo, the original and the best...


~~~ Jase

 

[FooAtari]

These are games, how close do you expect the circuits to be to real life. Things are getting better as computers get faster and faster and the developers can do more and more but you will probably find that no track in any game out now is yet an exact copy of its real life counterpart.
As a whole game, I prefer Forza, but GT4 (and probably GPL) has a pretty good representation of the ring as far as I can tell, but I have never actually dirven it, so what do I know?

Except from visually its hard to compare a game track to real life in terms of bumps and things because you cant feel them in the game. A small bump might not look like much on a screen, but sure as hell feels a lot bigger when going over at 120mph!

 

[3rdgenracerX]

while the driver of the GT4 comparison was obviously holding back to try and match the time.

That is incorrect, I was going as fast as I possibly could. You should try the same thing and you will see very quick that you will need to give everything you got just to keep up with Stefan in the parts of the track where he doesn't run into any traffic, road accidents, and a few places where you can commit 100% into a tricky braking zone because you won't die from a 150+ MPH wreck like he would. You do know that the Stefan's video was cut quite a bit to keep pace with mine correct?
If you really wan't to compare the times email RUF and ask them what the fastest showroom stock CTR lap is. They say its a low 8'00 time, if that driver had a clear track and was defantly skilled enough then they could defantly live up to that time just like Stefan could have in his vid if he didn't have to dodge slow traffic.

When you can do a lap in under 8'05 on N1 tires with a completely stock RUF CTR with an oil change, you won't be saying your holding anything back.

 

[rsmithdrift]

That is incorrect, I was going as fast as I possibly could. You should try the same thing and you will see very quick that you will need to give everything you got just to keep up with Stefan in the parts of the track where he doesn't run into any traffic, road accidents, and a few places where you can commit 100% into a tricky braking zone because you won't die from a 150+ MPH wreck like he would. You do know that the Stefan's video was cut quite a bit to keep pace with mine correct?
If you really wan't to compare the times email RUF and ask them what the fastest showroom stock CTR lap is. They say its a low 8'00 time, if that driver had a clear track and was defantly skilled enough then they could defantly live up to that time just like Stefan could have in his vid if he didn't have to dodge slow traffic.

When you can do a lap in under 8'05 on N1 tires with a completely stock RUF CTR with an oil change, you won't be saying your holding anything back.

I wanted to say the exact same thing earlier, but I decided wait and let you do it instead. 'Cause I can't even complete a full lap with the CTR stock on N1's giving 100%, I have to hold back with that car just to make a full lap at the Nurb, I put in an 8:09.173 with stock, oil change, on N2's. Stefan probably would have put in a 8:05 or so if he had a clear lap. He was actually faster than you in some parts and I could see that you were going 100%.

Also to Wolf2x7: Enthusia has more realistic physics than GT4 which will make the track seem more realistic, when in reality the track is off, but the physics make up for it.

 

[Wolfe]

You do know that the Stefan's video was cut quite a bit to keep pace with mine correct?

Let me get this straight, by "cut" you mean, "parts removed," right? Because that doesn't help the whole "GT4 isn't too fast" thing.

And I apologize for assuming you weren't giving it your all. As I said earlier, I can't stand playing GT4 anymore, so I can only imagine how difficult it must've been to struggle with the terrible physics...and in the CTR, too...

Also to Wolf2x7: Enthusia has more realistic physics than GT4 which will make the track seem more realistic, when in reality the track is off, but the physics make up for it.

Alright, but think about it this way:

Enthusia: Realistic physics + Realistic laptimes (as compared to entries at Nurburgring.de) = Realistic track, bumps or not.

GT4: Less-realistic physics + Stock 330i doing 7:20 (post #11 here) = Less realistic track, crazy tires or not.

If that's still not enough, how about this: IIRC, when I did a 'Ring lap with the classic VW Beetle (a car that struggles to hit 60mph) in GT4, I did it in about 12 minutes. Which, coincidentally, is about the same as my real-life lap in the 525i, where I was frequently doing 60, and reached about 110.

 

[Gabkicks]

anyone else feel the same way about enthusia having more realistic tracks? i've never played the game before.

 

[JasBird]

Using N3 in GT4 I get pretty close lap times at the Ring and Enthusia. Just did a few comparison laps, but considering Enthusia use standing start I'm actually a bit faster than in GT4. I try to drive like I "think" I would have driven in real life. No black flags in Enthusia. Only left foot brake when not changing down, not taking chances so I crash etc.

The time in the 330i can not have been driven like you would in real life? If I only think about time, I could take chances in the game which I never would in real life.

Also I don't think it's a good idea to use the Yellowbird video as an example of real life comparison. I'm not saying he is not driving fast, but for me it looks like he drives more for show than speed. Just look how he set's up the car to slide and the gears he uses. If he went for speed I think he wouldn't have slided that much? Just my guess.

 

[Crayola]

I think the issue with the starting point is because the track in GT4 and seems Enthusia as well is the Nordschlieffe which, in its entirety is no longer existent. As you said they now have the "tourist entry" and when racing the track joins partly with the F1 circuit. This is infact a different track to the one in GT4.

Edit: there was recently an article in The Sydney Morning Heralds drive lift-out (i'll see if I can get hold of a copy tomorrow) and it basically says that on most corners in GT4 you are going about 30-50 km/h faster than they could manage in real life. This is in a 350Z. The V-Max in GT4 was also higher.

 

[Greycap]

...on most corners in GT4 you are going about 30-50 km/h faster than they could manage in real life...

That might be true, but real life tires are made to last for several tens of thousands of kilometers, not 50 km like in GT4. Such tires in an IRL car would raise cornering speeds to a totally new extent.

 

[Crayola]

That might be true, but real life tires are made to last for several tens of thousands of kilometers, not 50 km like in GT4. Such tires in an IRL car would raise cornering speeds to a totally new extent.

That's true, I didnt read it properly though, just skim read it. Like I said I'll try and get hold of it.

Wow that was easy.
Drive Article - Ring of Confidence

 

[Wolfe]

That's true, I didnt read it properly though, just skim read it. Like I said I'll try and get hold of it.

Wow that was easy.
Drive Article - Ring of Confidence

Yeah, I just read that article on another, similar thread to this one. Great read, isn't it? I love how he talks about GT4's ring being a little off, and how GT4's cars are too fast. That sounds familiar...

 

[Gabkicks]

depends on the car. fwd cars dont accellerate anywhere near as fast as their rl counterparts most of the time.