Need For Speed Payback General Discussion

[CleanCut]

I brake to drift on long sweeping turns and E-brake initiate when I need to swing the back end out on sharper corners. As I said before, I do wish there was actual grip-racing ability, but I've made my peace with the system and don't fight it. I just use brake-to-drift to my advantage, speed-wise. So far I've found the best-handling car in the game to be the Aventador (in Race class, that is). The car just cuts through any situation like butter. It's a joy to drive.

I've also learned that off-road builds have terrible understeer and in order to drive them on pavement, you need to pull the E-brake to get the rear end pointed in the right direction on nearly every turn.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Got this game only recently. Looks to me like getting it late was a good move because despite all the crap reviews I'm pretty much enjoying this game so far. 👍 Haven't progressed too far just yet, but I'm somehow getting a distinct NFSU2 vibe from this, so I suppose it's hitting the right notes for me. Much more so than NFS 2015 IMO.

 

[CleanCut]

Didn't get to play much today, but I did drive a Race-Spec Honda S2000 about 11 miles to the current abandoned car location, and then the chase back to the airport in the abandoned car (currently a drift-spec Challenger). I tried to be cognizant of any handling anomalies, but I just can't duplicate these complaints. The S2000 is only around 325 hp in current form, so it's not fast enough to make drifting enjoyable. At no time, however, did I feel like the car was doing anything out of the ordinary. The abandoned car chase was fun - on hard I was successfully kill-switched once, glanced off of 3 Rhinos, and head-on collided with a fourth, and yet the car responded exactly as I wanted and expected. I dunno guys.

 

[ImaRobot]

Didn't get to play much today, but I did drive a Race-Spec Honda S2000 about 11 miles to the current abandoned car location, and then the chase back to the airport in the abandoned car (currently a drift-spec Challenger). I tried to be cognizant of any handling anomalies, but I just can't duplicate these complaints. The S2000 is only around 325 hp in current form, so it's not fast enough to make drifting enjoyable. At no time, however, did I feel like the car was doing anything out of the ordinary. The abandoned car chase was fun - on hard I was successfully kill-switched once, glanced off of 3 Rhinos, and head-on collided with a fourth, and yet the car responded exactly as I wanted and expected. I dunno guys.

We’ll lucky for you, I suppose? It doesn’t really change that it does happen, as it’s there in that video, as well as confirmed to be affecting others as well.

Edit: Googling it happened to bring up a video made by our very own @Moglet

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/moglet/gif/gleamingpaleanura

With that said, like I said for 2015, if they can just get a decent driving model it would do wonders for the game. Hopefully there’s a much more substantial update next time around.

 

[Losco]

Note that I'm not convinced that playing it with a wheel is actually enjoyable...

I gave it a try. Not very good indeed. I'll stick with the pad.
The game isn't that bad, nothing special either

 

[vinz7531]

I gave it a try. Not very good indeed. I'll stick with the pad.
The game isn't that bad, nothing special either

Note that the handling becomes better as the car level increases. And often it is very good (not realistic, but good).

 

[Losco]

Note that the handling becomes better as the car level increases. And often it is very good (not realistic, but good).

Not related. The game gave me the orange skyline for some reason, i used it til now but since yesterday the game won't let me drive it. wtf?

 

[vinz7531]

Not related. The game gave me the orange skyline for some reason, i used it til now but since yesterday the game won't let me drive it. wtf?

Unusual... you can get car by picking them on the map and bring them back to the airfield. Or maybe you have a car pass ?
I've not recieved a free car ever (aside from the 2 of the story line nissan 240 and audi S5).

Maybe a bug... that was corrected.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Sometimes I really feel like the NFS side of the forum is one man trying to be like that one Japanese soldier still holding out on the island thinking it was still WWII.

Like - the handling sucks. It's not as bad as NFS 2015, but when compared to other games in the marketplace, it's not good. It needs to change.

How easy of a point is that to concede?

 

[CleanCut]

Sometimes I really feel like the NFS side of the forum is one man trying to be like that one Japanese soldier still holding out on the island thinking it was still WWII.

Personally I see it completely the opposite - it seems to me that people go out of their way to ***** on the game because it's the popular thing to do. YES, Need for Speed, the series, has been bad for a while. That means that most people go into whatever the next installment is ALREADY expecting it to be rubbish, and that bias slants opinions toward the negative, whether it's truly warranted or not. How many times have we seen someone come on this forum with something along the lines of "I picked Payback up in the bargain bin because I'm sure it's crap, but whaddaya know, it's actually kinda fun!"

Edit: Googling it happened to bring up a video made by our very own @Moglet

https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/moglet/gif/gleamingpaleanura

All you've linked me to is yet another video showing a car drifting at high speed clipping an oncoming vehicle, resulting in a new trajectory that is in line with proper physics. Can you tell me what people are expecting to happen in these situations that would be "acceptable" handling? - Serious question. Since I'm apparently unable to see what's "wrong" with these examples, please explain to me how the car "should" behave.

Not related. The game gave me the orange skyline for some reason, i used it til now but since yesterday the game won't let me drive it. wtf?

Eddie's Skyline was an in-game reward for purchasing NFS 2015. The game detects if you have NFS 2015 installed, and if you do, they plop Eddie's Skyline down in your garage. As to why you can't drive it, I have no idea.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I could've swore it's been mentioned before, but apparently not: @CleanCut - no need to triple-post; that's what the Edit and +Quote buttons are for. 👍

 

[CleanCut]

I could've swore it's been mentioned before, but apparently not: @CleanCut - no need to triple-post; that's what the Edit and +Quote buttons are for. 👍

No doubt. I swear I do it properly around 90% of the time. But sorry to inconvenience you and thanks for cleaning it up.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Eddie's Skyline was an in-game reward for purchasing NFS 2015. The game detects if you have NFS 2015 installed, and if you do, they plop Eddie's Skyline down in your garage. As to why you can't drive it, I have no idea.

Are you sure it's not just a free gift? I played NFS 2015 on PC and Payback on PS4. There's no way those two are connected? Unless it confirms via EA account.

 

[ImaRobot]

Personally I see it completely the opposite - it seems to me that people go out of their way to ***** on the game because it's the popular thing to do.

I think you're just over-exaggerating, really. No one has gone out of the way - you think that, why? Because people don't like the driving physics that have obviously glaring flaws in it, that are extremely annoying when they pop their head in? The people that are currently complaining about it have actually praised it in other area's. You need to stop taking things so personally, and just try not to be so dismissive of other people's issue on the game.

How exactly is it the popular thing to do? That really makes very little sense.

YES, Need for Speed, the series, has been bad for a while. That means that most people go into whatever the next installment is ALREADY expecting it to be rubbish, and that bias slants opinions toward the negative, whether it's truly warranted or not.

No. Maybe that's you, but some people know how to go in with an open mind, even if a sour taste was left behind from the previous installment. I wouldn't even had bought it otherwise. All this is is acknowledging issues that the game has and talking about it - Especially an issue that has yet to be fixed in two games.

How many times have we seen someone come on this forum with something along the lines of "I picked Payback up in the bargain bin because I'm sure it's crap, but whaddaya know, it's actually kinda fun!"

This sentence completely goes against the point you were trying to make. So they have a slant towards the negative because of the last game, but they end up liking it? So then why even mention this so called "negative bias" if the end results doesn't correlate with the initial opinion in the first place, nor does it go along with the fact that you think people talk bad about the game because it's the "popular" thing to do, if it turns out they actually like the game.

All you've linked me to is yet another video showing a car drifting at high speed clipping an oncoming vehicle, resulting in a new trajectory that is in line with proper physics. Can you tell me what people are expecting to happen in these situations that would be "acceptable" handling? - Serious question. Since I'm apparently unable to see what's "wrong" with these examples, please explain to me how the car "should" behave.

If you think that's a normal thing to do, than to be frank, I'm going to have to use your line of "get gud", because I really can't understand at all how you think that's something you'd expect to happen.

That "new trajectory" is something that shouldn't happen at all. Why would he rocket outwards even more, after being clipped in his rear left quarter? He was nearly completely turned towards the cliff, at a slow speed, which should have resulted in almost a complete spin on impact in real life - but this isn't real life, this is NFS' crappy physics. I'm really dumbfounded at how you think theres nothing wrong with that.. So getting hit in the rear quarter panel from a car heading the opposite direction, while losing speed, then continuing the drift no problem, but with an extremely outward angle(one not even remotely close to the angle he was at while drifting) all the while getting a SPEED BOOST is what you expect to happen in this particular situation? In line with proper physics? Sure.

You need to not be so dismissive of peoples findings, especially considering there's videos to show exactly what's being talked about, and for what reason?. You replied "HeckNO" when I actually described what it feels like, and that's literally what's happening in that video. Both of them. Yet you're fighting against something that makes no sense to even do so in the first place. Maybe stop letting your personal emotion get too involved, since it seems that you let that personal problem get in the way of actually discussing things considering you're comparing it to "******** on the game because it's the popular thing to do."

I'm sure if they just got rid of the crappy drift-to-brake mechanic it wouldn't even be an issue anymore. It has to be the initiation of that mid turn that is causing these completely unrealistic movements.

 

[Silver Arrows]

it seems to me that people go out of their way to ***** on the game because it's the popular thing to do

Well gee, when the last game in the series was widely regarded as one of the worst racing games this generation in terms of fan reception and critical reception as well, that's what is going to happen. It's certainly not helped by the fact that the original demo for Payback at E3 left a lot of people with bad tastes in their mouths.

I'm sure if they just got rid of the crappy drift-to-brake mechanic it wouldn't even be an issue anymore. It has to be the initiation of that mid turn that is causing these completely unrealistic movements.

Wasn't there a video where somebody had modded The Run's physics engine into NFS 2015? That's what I think should be the baseline moving forward. The Run's handling model is probably the closest the NFS games, at least recently, has had in really trying to present a modern form of what an NFS should handle like - one where it's somewhat based in reality, where slow in and fast out and grippy cars are somewhat viable.

 

[rallymorten]

As much as I generally avoid the NFS section, I've been seeing this current debate unfold from the sidelines, and while it has been most entertaining, there are a few comments I would like to add..

For starters, let's get this clear: I'm no Euro NCAP crash tester, but I do believe a good few hours of watching crash compilations on YouTube, playing BeamNG and general driving games all across the sim-arcade spectrum give me a tiny idea of how I'd expect (more on why this is important in a moment) a car to behave when its rear quarter panel hits another car at an angle. I'd expect it lose speed. I'd expect it to be thrown into a spin - pendulum effect and so on. I most definitely wouldn't expect it to gain a weird, instantly noticable sideways-acceleration boost. In that last clip, the player hits the civillian car, gets going again, and then suddenly gets pulled to the left, as if the car had a personal moon over there affecting the gravitational pull on it. As far as I'm aware, cars don't drift in a random direction on their own for no good reason. Well, not like that and in that given set of circumstances, anyway.

Here's the thing, though: what happens in reality doesn't matter - especially not in a game occupying this sort of area on the sim-value scale (is that still a relevant joke?). What matters instead - I'd argue - is things like consistency/dependability and general enjoyment values. While the latter one is highly subjective (which goes both ways, remember), the former.. just isn't. That's a yes-or-no thing. If your physics engine at large is perfectly fine one moment and has the equivalent of an epileptic seizure the next, that's a problem. End of story. Yes, there can be extremely specific circumstances where things don't go to plan, and that's generally accepted - you can't plan for absolutely everything, but you still expect a certain level of not-broken-ness. And maybe this is one of those "extremely specific circumstances". I mean, how often, in a franchise like NFS, do we find ourselves travelling sideways at high speeds and happen to hit something with our rear-quarter panels anyway? *Even then*, Payback was released four years after their first NFS game, and still running basically the same engine. Four years is quite a long time for something as relatively simple and well-documented as this kind of issues to still persist.

And don't even try the Flat Earth "well I haven't seen a round Earth with my own eyes, so why should I believe the literally tons of evidence suggesting that to be the case?" approach. It doesn't exactly help your argument.

All of this, then, begs the following question: if Ghost are having as much trouble figuring out how to stop the games having these issues as this many years of one-step-forward-half-a-step-back would suggest, why are they still clinging on to that exact physics model as much as their games are clinging on to half-arsed throwbacks because gotta appeal to that "only true NFS fans will know" crowd? I mean, if they're going to be lazy and not do any significant work to it - let alone give up on the one they have and start anew - why not steal a physics model that works and call it a day? Contractual obligations aside, there are plenty of other game engines out there if Frostbyte turns out to be the issue. Lest we not forget that EA still has a few people that are highly talented when it comes to making arcade games and engines for these. Can you guess who I'm thinking of? I believe I've mentioned them in passing before.

Wow, would you look at the link I just made to my next point!

In games like this, I don't mind brake-to-drift. But it has to be done right. What exactly constitutes as "right" is, once again, highly subjective, but in general, I think we can agree that throwing a car about at high speeds should be an experience, that pulling off the perfect slide should feel rewarding. Payback (and basically every NFS this generation) does exactly none of those (in my opinion), and it's most definitely not helped by how its implementation of a mid-drift speed boost seems to be the cause of so many issues in the handling model. And yes, you can do drift-boosts right. Hot Pursuit 2010 has a milder form of drift boost, and I've yet to hear of that one spazzing out and breaking all sense of logic. But you shall be welcome to try and make something like that happen, in the event of which I will retract this wall of text.


As a finishing thought, I have just gone on Payback (PS4 here as well) to try and reproduce the issue presented in the last video. Same road, same car, and this is my first attempt:



I'm holding the stick as far to the right as it can possibly go ALL THE TIME. Why does the front oversteer? And wouldn't that technically be understeer? HOW AND WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

Now, because I do science properly, I then went and bought an RX-7, tuned it as much as Ghost decided it should be possible to do in a hurry, and had a few tries. That one didn't react. And yes, that's kind of a reference. One I'm sure you'll get and be pleased with forever.

But that revelation doesn't lessen the issue; quite the opposite, I'd say. Noticed how the BMW had issues in a different place entirely? What if there are certain "physics blackspots" scattered around the map, and what cars would you need to get the.. best?.. results from those?

 

[ImaRobot]

Here's the thing, though: what happens in reality doesn't matter - especially not in a game occupying this sort of area on the sim-value scale (is that still a relevant joke?). What matters instead - I'd argue - is things like consistency/dependability and general enjoyment values. While the latter one is highly subjective (which goes both ways, remember), the former.. just isn't. That's a yes-or-no thing. If your physics engine at large is perfectly fine one moment and has the equivalent of an epileptic seizure the next, that's a problem. End of story. Yes, there can be extremely specific circumstances where things don't go to plan, and that's generally accepted - you can't plan for absolutely everything, but you still expect a certain level of not-broken-ness. And maybe this is one of those "extremely specific circumstances". I mean, how often, in a franchise like NFS, do we find ourselves travelling sideways at high speeds and happen to hit something with our rear-quarter panels anyway? *Even then*, Payback was released four years after their first NFS game, and still running basically the same engine. Four years is quite a long time for something as relatively simple and well-documented as this kind of issues to still persist.

That's the thing though, no one is asking for something based off a 1:1 recreation of real life. The only reason real life is even mentioned is because someone keeps insisting that what is being shown is something that should happen if contact like that were to occur. Which I find shocking, especially when said someone is going to keep insisting, bringing in their real life work to justify that it's a realistic impact and physics and how everyone is just wrong. What is happening in those clips, is not something that would happen at all, and you've basically explained why, perfectly.

The problem being that people are asking for a better driving model, and everyone starts screaming "IT'S AN ARCADE GAME NOT A SIM!!!!" Cool, but what does that have to do with not wanting to run into ridiculous situations like in those videos? Improvements came with Payback, and more or less I have been pleased with it, but what's so wrong about wanting a coherent and intuitive handling model? It doesn't need to be real life, it just needs to be good. They're doing baby steps though, and with the amount of time it had, I would have hoped for a bitter model than what we got. Was it unplayable? No. However, those situations were so annoying that they stick with you.

I'm holding the stick as far to the right as it can possibly go ALL THE TIME. Why does the front oversteer? And wouldn't that technically be understeer? HOW AND WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

It's both understeer and oversteer at the same time it feels like, also while having, like you mention, a gravitational pull to one side with a ridiculous amount of momentum.

 

[rallymorten]

That's the thing though, no one is asking for something based off a 1:1 recreation of real life. The only reason real life is even mentioned is because someone keeps insisting that what is being shown is something that should happen if contact like that were to occur. Which I find shocking, especially when said someone is going to keep insisting, bringing in their real life work to justify that it's a realistic impact and physics. What is happening in those clips, is not something that would happen at all, and you've basically explained why, perfectly.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. What happens in "real life" doesn't matter a single thing when talking about games in this part of the realism-spectrum. The logic the game establishes, however, very much does, and if this sort of behaviour was consistent across all cars and locations, *maybe* you could chalk it up as a "feature". That doesn't necessarily make it a good, well-liked or even intended feature, but at least it wouldn't seem like the game suddenly gets a bad case of the runs. Pun not intended, for once.

The problem being that people are asking for a better driving model, and everyone starts screaming "IT'S AN ARCADE GAME NOT A SIM!!!!" Cool, but what does that have to do with not wanting to run into ridiculous situations like in those videos? Improvements came with Payback, and more or less I have been pleased with it, but what's so wrong about wanting a coherent and intuitive handling model? It doesn't need to be real life, it just needs to be good. They're doing baby steps though, and with the amount of time it had, I would have hoped for a bitter model than what we got. Was it unplayable? No. However, those situations were so annoying that they stick with you.

Coming back to Payback after quite a while, I'll still say I dislike the handling model with a burning passion because of how clunky it feels, but I will generally agree with your second paragraph - specifically the bit where it doesn't matter if it's real or not, as long as it's something I'd consider "good". In the grand scheme of things, it's a step in the right direction, but they've still got a few miles to walk.

 

[ImaRobot]

And that's exactly what I'm saying. What happens in "real life" doesn't matter a single thing when talking about games in this part of the realism-spectrum. The logic the game establishes, however, very much does, and if this sort of behaviour was consistent across all cars and locations, *maybe* you could chalk it up as a "feature". That doesn't necessarily make it a good, well-liked or even intended feature, but at least it wouldn't seem like the game suddenly gets a bad case of the runs. Pun not intended, for once

Maybe if it was consistent between all cars and locations, it would do well to actually get the devs to focus on it a bit more than whatever they did with Payback. I myself don't recall it happening to one car over the other, at the time though. I just know it happened to me, it has been noted to happen to others, there's video proof of it, and it's been going on for two games now.

Coming back to Payback after quite a while, I'll still say I dislike the handling model with a burning passion because of how clunky it feels, but I will generally agree with your second paragraph - specifically the bit where it doesn't matter if it's real or not, as long as it's something I'd consider "good". In the grand scheme of things, it's a step in the right direction, but they've still got a few miles to walk.

When you're just exclusively playing Payback, and absolutely nothing else, it may seem ok. You can get by. It's when you have an arsenal of other games where you start to realize just how terrible it actually is. It's still not as bad as The Crew 2 though, its a good bit ahead of...that.

 

[rallymorten]

Maybe if it was consistent between all cars and locations, it would do well to actually get the devs to focus on it a bit more than whatever they did with Payback.

Well, this forum has now confirmed one place and car combo that's basically guaranteed to trigger it. If nothing else, that's a start for them to look into.

It's still not as bad as The Crew 2 though, its a good bit ahead of...that.

..teetering on the edge of going off-topic, I'd tend to put them the other way around, but, you know, subjective (key word right there) opinions, preferences in terms of driving styles, what experience you want from the game and all that. It could still be improved, sure, but generally I wouldn't consider it decidedly below average.

 

[CleanCut]

@ ImaRobot: I've been working all day, and the conversation has progressed well beyond my ability or desire to give a point-by-point rebuttal. But let me sum up a few observations:

1) I think we should probably focus less on 'opinions' and more on 'validation.' You claim that I'm taking criticism of the game "personal." I have to disagree... What I think happens is that when people's opinions aren't validated, it becomes personal. For some people this can be stronger than others, but it's really hard to debate about anything without it becoming personal to some degree, because by its very nature, debating requires two different viewpoints hashing it out. My opinion is that the handling in Payback is enjoyable, albeit not perfect. The majority on this forum feel completely the opposite. As each party digs in, it becomes less about the game itself and more about the lack of validation.

2) You don't think that bagging on NFS games is popular? You really must not be paying much attention then. What I have seen, on this forum and most others [also Youtube], is ten negative comments for every positive one. And of course people are entitled to their opinion, and popular opinion is that the game sucks. This is probably impossible for you to believe, but when I post contrary opinions on here, I'm not looking to start an argument, I'm actually seeking balance. - I like the game! I've had a lot of fun playing it! It disappoints me to see comment after comment expressing negativity. I'm just trying to bring things back to center. When the negative make up the majority, it continues to lessen the chances of NFS becoming better, or even existing at all. - This possibility really disappoints me, because NFS still manages to scratch an itch that other racing titles do not. And although I can't control other peoples opinions, I suppose I still try to fight against the current.

3) As to physics: Rallymorten's Youtube post helped me a lot in seeing what you guys are complaining about. With the benefit of audio I could see and hear that the car seemed to speed up after the impact, and of course that's NOT what would happen in real life. I still stand by my trajectory comments however - an object in motion will tend to stay heading in the same direction after that type of impact. I agree with your comments that the car should be spinning around and slowing down while doing it however. That's what I was expressing before - The issue isn't so much the trajectory the car is taking, but the manner in which it gets there. Speeding up in a straight line is NOT correct. I have simply not ran into this issue during my playthrough, or at least not noticed it - that's a fact that is just as valid as the video evidence of the problem's existence.

When you're just exclusively playing Payback, and absolutely nothing else, it may seem ok. You can get by. It's when you have an arsenal of other games where you start to realize just how terrible it actually is. It's still not as bad as The Crew 2 though, its a good bit ahead of...that.

I think you really hit the nail on the head with this comment. Payback IS the only racing game I am currently playing. I do have intentions of playing Forza Horizon 4 someday, but in my current pace of life I simply don't have time to get into a game that involved and detailed. As I said before, Payback scratches an itch. I have played other racing games (including demos), so I'm not oblivious to Payback's differences. But yeah, I really enjoyed it despite brake-to-drift and the other anomalies that everyone is so keen to point out. I'm looking forward to see what they do next...

On the same subject (Payback handling), here is an interesting post from a while back from the devs themselves explaining the reasons they designed the handling the way that it is. Agree or otherwise, it's an interesting look into just how complicated designing a "handling system" actually is, and the gameplay decisions that must be made in the process.

 

[CleanCut]

Are you sure it's not just a free gift? I played NFS 2015 on PC and Payback on PS4. There's no way those two are connected? Unless it confirms via EA account.

Yes, it is a free gift for purchasing NFS 2015. As evident in your case, I would say it does indeed have to do with your EA account.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

With regards to off road physics, I think I managed to crack the issue. You basically cannot let go of the throttle at all during cornering. Letting off the throttle is instant drift button. Just tap the brake/handbrake (same effect) for light turns, and tap both for medium turns. For the tightest hairpins, use the brakes to slow down and just grip through the corner. Don't start accelerating until you're completely straight. Sounds slow but it's the safest way I found. Finally managed to finish off Free Ember Militia events yesterday.

Also, I found that the difficulty doesn't affect any reward/progression in this game. I've been doing events on Normal but I'll just cop out and switch to Easy now. Less stress = more fun. I can always bump up the difficulty later once I gel better with the physics +/- get better cars.

 

[rallymorten]

You don't think that bagging on NFS games is popular?

What I have seen, on this forum and most others [also Youtube], is ten negative comments for every positive one.

It disappoints me to see comment after comment expressing negativity.

..you do realise this thread is called the NFS Payback General Discussion Thread, right? And not the NFS Payback Praise And Tears Of Joy Thread? People aren't required to post positives-only, but rather tend to post their unfiltered opinion. And, as with grinding in GT Sport, maybe there's an explanation to be found.

I'm just trying to bring things back to center.

..word of advice for the future: don't ever make it sound like you're the physical embodiment of those companies that make fake 5-star reviews for other companies. Because that's what this sentence sounds like.

When the negative make up the majority, it continues to lessen the chances of NFS becoming better, or even existing at all.

Depends on what kind of negativity. Shouting for the sake of shouting doesn't do much, that we can agree on (actually, NFS 2015 is proof that shouting *does* change things, as long as you shout loud enough *coughthatoneyoutuberyouknowcough*). Constructive criticism and bug reporting, however, has never killed a game series on its own. This latest discussion definitely falls in the latter - even when I said I dislike the handling because it feels clunky, and I could easily go into greater detail.

I have simply not ran into this issue during my playthrough, or at least not noticed it - that's a fact that is just as valid as the video evidence of the problem's existence.

As we've just discovered, it's fairly easily reproduceable if you follow the steps. Give it a shot, experience it for yourself and then think back to a few days ago where you'd happily claim everyone was wrong in that way usually used by Flat Earthers.

I really enjoyed it despite brake-to-drift

Once again, I'm not against brake-to-drift in general. It just needs to be done right. Payback, in my opinion, isn't doing it right. That's all there is to it.

I shall once again try and refer you to the likes of Hot Pursuit 2010 and/or Burnout Paradise. I don't care if the game style isn't your cup of tea, but give it a proper shot for the handling model (which, needless to say, I consider brake-to-drift done right). If you still come away thinking Paybacks is better, then fair enough - all I can ask is that you try.

As I've said, the ideal handling model is a subjective matter. I'm merely trying to provide context into why I find Payback's model lacking.

 

[ImaRobot]

1) I think we should probably focus less on 'opinions' and more on 'validation.' You claim that I'm taking criticism of the game "personal." I have to disagree... What I think happens is that when people's opinions aren't validated, it becomes personal. For some people this can be stronger than others, but it's really hard to debate about anything without it becoming personal to some degree, because by its very nature, debating requires two different viewpoints hashing it out. My opinion is that the handling in Payback is enjoyable, albeit not perfect. The majority on this forum feel completely the opposite. As each party digs in, it becomes less about the game itself and more about the lack of validation.

That's the problem here. You're thinking these are opinions. They aren't. They're things actually happening, and proof has been provided only for you to be constantly trying to disagree and shut it down, and likened these facts as just "******** on it because its the cool thing to do." That's the point where it looks like you started taking it personal, because you've been outright dismissive of everything, even after evidence, and then instead of addressing the points, you choose to basically insult it. It's easy to debate somtehing with out being personal, especially something as meaningless as talking about how a game drives - It's not like it was just made up, no, quite the opposite, it was peoples experiences with the game. It's fine that you find the driving enjoyable, no one has said you can't have that opinion and now one has tried to say you shouldn't enjoy it. Instead, what is being discussed - that which you're so valiantly trying to shut down - is what is a major problem with the system, regardless of what people "feel."

It's not about the lack of validation at all, so I'm not sure what you're even getting at or why you're even pretending it is. It's about you constantly trying to shut down something that players are experiencing after being told about it, and then continuing to do so even after video evidence is shown. You even brought in your work place to try to pretend you have a better say on the matter, trying to justify that blatantly wrong opinion. The thing is though, yours' is the only opinion here, that you feel like what we're saying isn't happening.

2) You don't think that bagging on NFS games is popular? You really must not be paying much attention then. What I have seen, on this forum and most others [also Youtube], is ten negative comments for every positive one. And of course people are entitled to their opinion, and popular opinion is that the game sucks.

Do I think it's popular? No. The problem here is that you think that we shouldn't be talking about your beloved game, so you take to the offense against the people saying it. It has problems, that's why it gets bagged on, and this one in particular has been on for two games now - It's not because it's the popular thing to do, it's because it actually has issues. You're trying to justify the negativity by going to Youtube? That's you're problem right there. I can find any wonderful game, search it up on youtube, and you'll have no shortage of negativity. It's not that it's the popular thing to do, it's that its an actually popular game so more public scrutiny is going to be seen compared to something indie-developed games.

This is probably impossible for you to believe, but when I post contrary opinions on here, I'm not looking to start an argument, I'm actually seeking balance. - I like the game! I've had a lot of fun playing it! It disappoints me to see comment after comment expressing negativity.

That's the problem. There's no need for balance. No one needs to constantly post praise in order to talk about a negative aspect of the game. You're basically trying to shut down opinions and problems that people have by shunning out the negative and trying to bring up the positive. That's fine, you like it, but when you directly respond to someones issues with outright dismissive points of view, than you're really not being any positive.

When the negative make up the majority, it continues to lessen the chances of NFS becoming better, or even existing at all. - This possibility really disappoints me, because NFS still manages to scratch an itch that other racing titles do not. And although I can't control other peoples opinions, I suppose I still try to fight against the current.

That's actually completely ass-backwards. The negativity and the issues people find is what should drive the developers to change and fix things, and make them better next time around. I don't really understand how you think constant praise and approval of what their doing is going to be the forefront for progression.

3) As to physics: Rallymorten's Youtube post helped me a lot in seeing what you guys are complaining about. With the benefit of audio I could see and hear that the car seemed to speed up after the impact, and of course that's NOT what would happen in real life. I still stand by my trajectory comments however - an object in motion will tend to stay heading in the same direction after that type of impact. I agree with your comments that the car should be spinning around and slowing down while doing it however. That's what I was expressing before - The issue isn't so much the trajectory the car is taking, but the manner in which it gets there. Speeding up in a straight line is NOT correct. I have simply not ran into this issue during my playthrough, or at least not noticed it - that's a fact that is just as valid as the video evidence of the problem's existence.

That's the problem though, it's not really doing anything different than what has been described or have been shown in the two videos before that. It's literally in the exact same location as the second video, doing almost exactly the same thing, just with more speed - but only now you're seeing it?

An object in motion will stay in motion until it meets an object with similar or more momentum than it, especially when it's hitting it at such an angle like that. You don't get more angle, trajectory, and speed from that type of accident, none whatsoever. You're not going to plow through anything and everything in your path just because that's what you're angle was when you started. That accident will alter the angle, so much so, that there wouldn't be an angle any more because you'll spin full-circle with a pendulum effect from the force of the accident. Now, that doesn't even matter though, because these physics aren't really even remotely close to real life, so lets just take that crap out and get it over with so we don't see issues like that anymore.

That's the problem though.. you haven't ran into the issue, so you're dismissing it(even with evidence, mind you.) I don't recall the last time I ran into every single bug a game has. I see patch notes all the time about fixing things here, fixing bugs there, and yet I never even knew the existed. So that must mean that it exist for no one, and that I should go basically tell everyone their wrong in what they experienced?

 

[Silver Arrows]

I don't recall the last time I ran into every single bug a game has. I see patch notes all the time about fixing things here, fixing bugs there, and yet I never even knew the existed

That's the hilarious thing about it. If I'm completely honest? The only bug that I have found on playing Payback on both PS4 and Xbox One was a single instance where Jess was almost t-posing in her car, which was mildly amusing. Otherwise, in my experience, Payback has been rock solid when it comes to actual gameplay. Certainly a lot more stable then Horizon 4 in terms of bugs and glitches.

Here's the thing - that rock solid nature pails in comparison to the biggest problem the game has, which is the handling. It sucks, and it is obviously just a stop gap from what was present in NFS 2015. It needs to change.

 

[ImaRobot]

That's the hilarious thing about it. If I'm completely honest? The only bug that I have found on playing Payback on both PS4 and Xbox One was a single instance where Jess was almost t-posing in her car, which was mildly amusing. Otherwise, in my experience, Payback has been rock solid when it comes to actual gameplay. Certainly a lot more stable then Horizon 4 in terms of bugs and glitches.

Here's the thing - that rock solid nature pails in comparison to the biggest problem the game has, which is the handling. It sucks, and it is obviously just a stop gap from what was present in NFS 2015. It needs to change.

I haven't had major bugs, outside of this one, but this is a major one for me. I enjoyed the game for the most part, if not for the customization alone. I just wish the driving was a bit more intuitive. While Horizon has it's fair share of annoying problems, none really have to do with what I feel is the main part of these games - The driving, like you mention. There was enough in there to get me to overlook it, and complete the game, but I agree that it's in need of change.

That's the reason I can't get on-board with The Crew 2 that I mentioned earlier. It's has a lot of good aspects to it, but man the driving is terrible in my opinion. It's so bad to me that it's the only game that I bought and only played a handful of hours, and outright uninstalled it from my hard drive.

 

[Silver Arrows]

And that's ultimately what we are trying to get at - I think a lot of us here do want to see the NFS series succeed again. The problem is that the handling physics pretty much make any sort of good thing that the NFS series under Ghost does moot. If this was any other series barring SMS' games, such handling critiques would have gotten to the point where the developers would have to change it.

Yet here we are...somebody getting defensive because people have posted their own experiences, video evidence, and everything else under the sun, but because of a need to defend the game, gets huffy when such a change is mentioned.

 

[FT-1]

And that's ultimately what we are trying to get at - I think a lot of us here do want to see the NFS series succeed again.

Count me in - I do have a strong admiration for the NFS Series and would absolutely love the franchise to do as well as the Forza Horizon. FH shows that there is still demand for arcade racers despite the lack of blockbusting entrants in the market right now and what happened with Evolution Studios after the Driveclub fiasco. If there is another series (which could happen to be NFS) doing as well as FH in the same sector, Ghost Gamers and its potential user base get to benefit; win-win situation for both parties.

@CleanCut I know you have good intentions for the series but there is definitely room for improvement, and buggy physics are certainly not something I think should be overlooked for the next instalment, regardless of how rarely you encounter them in your experience while playing the game. It is also worth noting no-one here is attacking Ghost Games - If users are criticising in a constructive manner, they are doing so as they want what's best for the series.

I do think Payback has taken some steps in the right direction and can be a fun game in its own right, but it is far off the mark from something I would consider class-leading, plus there are some things which it could learn from its predecessor (2015) in terms of creating a more engaging atmosphere. There need to be some substantial changes made, especially as this year's release is supposed to commemorate the 25th Anniversary of the Need For Speed Franchise. No doubt that's going to be used in the marketing strategy and I hope the end result lives up to such an iconic achievement.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Count me in - I do have a strong admiration for the NFS Series and would absolutely love the franchise to do as well as the Forza Horizon. FH shows that there is still demand for arcade racers despite the lack of blockbusting entrants in the market right now and what happened with Evolution Studios after the Driveclub fiasco. If there is another series (which could happen to be NFS) doing as well as FH in the same sector, Ghost Gamers and its potential user base get to benefit; win-win situation for both parties.

I think the longer we get away from the 'glory years' of the NFS franchise, and the more we can look critically at the post Carbon era of the franchise, the better the NFS as a franchise can be off. Because really, that's my biggest thing about NFS now, is that the only thing people want is either the cops and criminals stuff, or the street racing stuff. We're destined for an eternity of this stuff, mainly because the fanbase basically wants to relive their Underground 2 memories (when that game has held up incredibly poorly)

I've thought about what the NFS franchise could do for a while now, and I really think that it might be best for the series to do another foray onto an Nintendo console much like NFS Nitro was - a game that doesn't fit the normal vision of the NFS franchise, and also help what is pretty much a sagging racing market on the Switch. Plus, it might give developers in the EA system a chance to do the second thing I would like the NFS franchise to do - get away from the cops and criminals and the street racing and introduce a decent idea. Prostreet and The Run were the most maligned NFS games in terms of hype and fan reaction (I certainly remember the many diapers filled that came from Prostreet's reveal) but as they have aged, they've shown to be some of the best ideas the NFS has ever had. Something like that, something that doesn't just rip a page out of the past norms that the NFS series has set, might be beneficial.

But of course, all of this really doesn't matter, because the fans are just going to fill diapers again and doom people to yet another cycle of one release being cops and criminals, and the other being street racing.