Net Neutrality Issue

DK
Really? Here's what the New York Times has to say:
The NYT is quoting what the FCC claims they are doing. The FCC document states:
38. This is Title II tailored for the 21st Century. Unlike the application of Title II to incumbent wireline companies in the 20th Century, a swath of utility-style provisions (including tariffing) will not be applied. Indeed, there will be fewer sections of Title II applied than have been applied to Commercial Mobile Radio Service (CMRS), where Congress expressly required the application of sections 201, 202, and 208, and permitted the Commission to forbear from others. In fact, Title II has never been applied in such a focused way.
Yes, I'm finally getting through this monstrous jumble of nonsensical language.

Whether their intention is pure or not they have reclassified broadband as Title II. They can call it tailored for the 21st century all they want, but Title II has not been changed by this. Nothing at this point prevents them from enforcing any provision of Title II that they want at anytime without having to create new rules. This is like the federal government not enforcing federal marijuana laws in states with legalized marijuana. All it takes is for the administration to say they are enforcing all provisions of the law.


I mean, keep in mind, the NSA was only supposed to be monitoring phone calls overseas to countries known to harbor terrorists. They were never going to use that loose language to monitor domestic calls or search every single call for keywords and keep a database of everyone's communications.


What the FCC has done is add fluff language in hopes that it will pass court challenges, because they know that a blanket Title II classification won't get through.

OK, I understand your concerns here. I'm just saying that any move by a conservative-dominated FCC would draw a massive backlash from massive swathes of Internet users, just like the anti-SOPA/PIPA/ACTA/TPP/TTIP movements.
In every election the winner is whoever manages to control the conversation. They find one issue to take their opponent to task for that they can get the public to jump on and it is about that one issue from that point forward. Unless that became a hot topic no one would know. Honestly, how aware are you of every FCC ruling, new regulation, and the outcomes of their commission meetings?

And in this instance, if it is done through fees or some other backdoor method it was never a ban and the content just kind of faded away with a few articles discussing why that happened. People don't really notice until it affects the one site they visit. Truly, a fee change or tariff in a commission meeting would go completely unnoticed unless it was drastic enough to make the industry all freak out at once.

Government has a tendency toward power creep. I doubt this will be any different.
 
OK, I'll put my hands up: I don't keep up to date with every last FCC ruling/regulation/commission meeting. I do see your point about governments tending towards a power creep.
 
I'm actually going to get out in front of this and declare "I told you so" right now.

I've argued with quite a few people on net neutrality, people who normally resist government regulations but just couldn't help themselves from supporting this one. How does it look? Are you satisfied with what you're seeing here? Super happy that finally you're getting the net neutrality you wanted? Oh, this is not just exactly how you'd have implemented it? Who could possibly have called that?

Oh yea... me (and loads of others).
 
No, @Danoff what you're missing is that government bodies regulate corporations, and regulate internet infrastructure. Hundreds of millions of tax dollars were given to cable companies without any way to keep them accountable and those greedy bastards didn't improve service at all! Now there's no competition because the barriers to entry into the market are so high that only established huge corporations can afford to enter the market, and they can keep their oligopolies. These greedy corporations bribe Congress so they can change the laws to benefit their companies and keep cities and smaller companies from competing!

Of course, the answer can only be more government to protect us from the greedy corporations.
 
DK
OK, I'll put my hands up: I don't keep up to date with every last FCC ruling/regulation/commission meeting. I do see your point about governments tending towards a power creep.
I have a degree in telecommunications and telecom law was my favorite course. One of my textbooks was a 1000+ page volume, printed on ultra-thin paper, that was a review of every regulation and court ruling since the Communications Act was created in 1934.

Understanding telecommunications, how it works, how the users use it and behave, etc. is all a large mess of technological, economic, sociological, and psychological understanding. Unfortunately the Federal Communications Commission is headed up by politically appointed individuals who have been heads of trade organizations or lobbying groups and have no experience at all in the modern technology. Any of them with real communications experience haven't dealt with any actual networking and broadcasting technology and information in decades. I'd be willing to guess that the last time Commissioner Wheeler dealt with anything on a technological level that there wasn't even home dial-up.

No, @Danoff what you're missing is that government bodies regulate corporations, and regulate internet infrastructure. Hundreds of millions of tax dollars were given to cable companies without any way to keep them accountable and those greedy bastards didn't improve service at all! Now there's no competition because the barriers to entry into the market are so high that only established huge corporations can afford to enter the market, and they can keep their oligopolies. These greedy corporations bribe Congress so they can change the laws to benefit their companies and keep cities and smaller companies from competing!
Fortunately the local governments have allowed for competition. Imagine that. The way the government was supposed to work, most things done on a local level, has managed to reach better results.

In most states is some form of a public service commission. They set regulations on a state level, require what kind of access must be provided to whom in order for a business to operate within the state, etc. Then on a town/city level the town/city council will negotiate the contracts for the local utility service providers. This includes everything from water to Internet service. They even negotiate rates. The company can't change rates and plans without getting approval from the local authority. A company's monopoly lasts only as long as it is allowed to. It should be noted that these authorities cannot affect content. Attempts have led to 1st amendment violations.

In larger urban areas they now often allow multiple providers in for things like phone, cable and TV. You unfortunately can't really share water and electrical networks. Nothing sorts your drops of water from your competitor's. I have seen areas where there is a cable company that provides phone, TV, and Internet. Then you have something like AT&T and Windstream that also offer the same, but over different lines. And with the much more affordable satellite services that allows another competitor in that doesn't even have to get local authority, other than register as a tax paying business.

In some rural areas there are monopolies, but the companies involved are small and local and they are so small that if they screw up they are easily overtaken. And then they still have to compete with what a satellite service and mobile service can offer.

Ultimately, all of this is why I think that net neutrality is a non-issue. If you look at it from a national view it looks like you have these giant, monstrous companies that are just lumbering over the citizens like Godzilla. The fact is each large company is comprised of thousands of tiny contracts in every city/county and what they can pull off in one city won't get passed in another. Living between Louisville and Lexington I see price and package differences between the two all the time, even though they both use Time Warner.

The real threat is in the situation I am in. I live in the state capital, which uses Frankfort Plant Board, a municipal owned utility company. Will the city approve the rate hike requested by the city-owned cable company? Yes. They control water, phone, electric, cable, and Internet. They pay carrier fees to Windstream because Windstream's lines pass through the city, but they don't allow Windstream to offer their own service, nor can any of the long distance phone services, such as AT&T. Being a monopoly every one of their ads claims them to be the fastest Internet in Frankfort. I laugh because their maximum speed is equivalent to some of the lower tiered plans offered by Time Warner.

And that is even more telling. Windstream owns the physical network in the state, despite Time Warner being in all the major metropolitan regions. Heck, if I lived two miles up the road I could have choices between Time Warner, Windstream, and AT&T. I'm so close to the edge that I am on a different water network. The point is that Time Warner would face multiple issues if they chose to engage in practices that harm consumers. For one, any throttling would have to be on their servers. They have to explain themselves to Windstream to maintain their access contract. Then they have to get the state and local authorities to allow the new practice. It is an uphill battle to force consumers into a plan that is nothing but harmful.

I am not completely versed in every state in the union, so there are likely some incongruities between how I describe it and how someone else might have things happen.
 
The House just voted to wipe out the FCC's landmark internet privacy protections.

Well, this is alarming. I hesitated about bringing this up in the America thread, but this seemed more appropriate. It certainly appears that the ISP lobbyists have been successful.

How is this scary? If you've got the time, read this. The amount of data ISPs will have access to about your personal details — and be able to sell to marketers — is massive. Algorithms can determine more about you than even you probably realize yourself, based on things like social media and browsing history.

I'll admit, part of me finds that bit fascinating, strictly from an accomplishment perspective. That we've gotten to the point that a person's web presence can be essentially distilled into a highly accurate portrait of who they are, and what their habits are? It's interesting, in some sort of Matrix/Skynet/robot overlords sort of way.

What's really surprising (scary) about this bill is that it limits the FCC from ever even trying to pass future limitations. It also gives ISP no reason to disclose any security breaches that could result in customers information being stolen. Outside of the companies themselves, who actually thinks these are good ideas?!
 
I thought that they already track everything.
Hence ads after you search for something. Heck I think our phones listen to us, I was talking about a game I don't own with Mrs. ryz. I went on Facebook on my phone about an hour later and had 3 ads show up on my scroll for the game we were talking about.
 
I thought that they already track everything.
Hence ads after you search for something. Heck I think our phones listen to us, I was talking about a game I don't own with Mrs. ryz. I went on Facebook on my phone about an hour later and had 3 ads show up on my scroll for the game we were talking about.

That's your own fault for allowing your phone to track your voice and location. Turn it off, all the way off. :D

The House just voted to wipe out the FCC's landmark internet privacy protections.

Well, this is alarming. I hesitated about bringing this up in the America thread, but this seemed more appropriate. It certainly appears that the ISP lobbyists have been successful.

How is this scary? If you've got the time, read this. The amount of data ISPs will have access to about your personal details — and be able to sell to marketers — is massive. Algorithms can determine more about you than even you probably realize yourself, based on things like social media and browsing history.

I'll admit, part of me finds that bit fascinating, strictly from an accomplishment perspective. That we've gotten to the point that a person's web presence can be essentially distilled into a highly accurate portrait of who they are, and what their habits are? It's interesting, in some sort of Matrix/Skynet/robot overlords sort of way.

What's really surprising (scary) about this bill is that it limits the FCC from ever even trying to pass future limitations. It also gives ISP no reason to disclose any security breaches that could result in customers information being stolen. Outside of the companies themselves, who actually thinks these are good ideas?!

I've yet to see Trumpton do anything with the swamp except fence it in with large corporate skyscrapers.
 
I thought that they already track everything.
Hence ads after you search for something. Heck I think our phones listen to us, I was talking about a game I don't own with Mrs. ryz. I went on Facebook on my phone about an hour later and had 3 ads show up on my scroll for the game we were talking about.

You're describing being tracked by websites that you choose to visit - Google, Facebook, etc. - or by a device that you choose to use. When you're in their ecosystem you're being tracked, but you can choose to not visit those sites, to not use those devices, and avoid the issue. (Granted, it's getting more difficult by the day to avoid some of them, especially Google, but it can be done.)

Your ISP is a whole different issue. When you're online, your ISP can track everything you do. Doesn't matter which sites you visit, which browser you use, or which device you connect with. They have all of it. They can sell all of it.

The FCC was set to control that, to prevent your ISP from using your information in ways that you didn't explicitly allow them to. Those protections are what Trump just blocked. It's now fair game for your ISP to do whatever they want with your data. Don't like it? Don't go online. That's about your only option now. Unless you can find an ISP who chooses to protect their customers' data over the fortune to be made by selling it. I won't hold my breath waiting for that.

I'd wager this is about as non-partisan an issue as you can find - is there anybody who actually likes the idea of their ISP selling them off to any and all corporate bidders? I can't imagine that there is.

Which makes it really curious that Mr. "Drain the Swamp" would do this...
 
Your ISP is a whole different issue.
I don't see the difference. They can track you over a wider range of places, but only if you agree to use their services.

The FCC was set to control that, to prevent your ISP from using your information in ways that you didn't explicitly allow them to. Those protections are what Trump just blocked. It's now fair game for your ISP to do whatever they want with your data. Don't like it? Don't go online. That's about your only option now. Unless you can find an ISP who chooses to protect their customers' data over the fortune to be made by selling it. I won't hold my breath waiting for that.
I wonder how much influence those protections had in creating the current situation. What happened is that the government was given power to regulate, and then the government changed. I think the change in this case, deregulation, is good. However, because of the old regulations no ISP has had a reason to market itself as privacy friendly. Since everyone was forced to do it, it became a pointless business plan. Had there not been any privacy regulations, the situation could have been different.

Taking the FCC out of the picture makes it possible for businesses to operate with the promise of privacy but until some pressure is put on them it may be a very slow development.
 
The House just voted to wipe out the FCC's landmark internet privacy protections.

Well, this is alarming. I hesitated about bringing this up in the America thread, but this seemed more appropriate. It certainly appears that the ISP lobbyists have been successful.

How is this scary? If you've got the time, read this. The amount of data ISPs will have access to about your personal details — and be able to sell to marketers — is massive. Algorithms can determine more about you than even you probably realize yourself, based on things like social media and browsing history.

I'll admit, part of me finds that bit fascinating, strictly from an accomplishment perspective. That we've gotten to the point that a person's web presence can be essentially distilled into a highly accurate portrait of who they are, and what their habits are? It's interesting, in some sort of Matrix/Skynet/robot overlords sort of way.

What's really surprising (scary) about this bill is that it limits the FCC from ever even trying to pass future limitations. It also gives ISP no reason to disclose any security breaches that could result in customers information being stolen. Outside of the companies themselves, who actually thinks these are good ideas?!

http://www.distractify.com/trending...2&tse_id=INF_517415f014c311e782e5bb027685425d

^^^ I hope that happens. Could get really interesting.

I thought that they already track everything.
Hence ads after you search for something. Heck I think our phones listen to us, I was talking about a game I don't own with Mrs. ryz. I went on Facebook on my phone about an hour later and had 3 ads show up on my scroll for the game we were talking about.

I read an article about that recently. Can't remember where though...
 
I don't see the difference.

A difference of scope, not of kind, is what I was driving at. Perhaps not very clearly, my apologies.

They can track you over a wider range of places, but only if you agree to use their services.

It is not uncommon for there to only be one provider in rural areas, away from the major metropolitan areas. In those cases, choosing to not use their services, as you suggest, would essentially be a choice to not get online at all. It's not hard to imagine someone in that situation feeling forced to accept whatever terms their ISP decides to throw at them.

Which really makes this...

Taking the FCC out of the picture makes it possible for businesses to operate with the promise of privacy but until some pressure is put on them it may be a very slow development.

...an unlikely development for a lot of Americans. At least, not anytime in the near future.
 
The thing is in 2017, it's damn near impossible to operate without the Internet and it's becoming more of a necessity rather than a luxury. Unfortunately, this is one instances I see the market not self regulating because of the way it's currently setup. You're not going to have a choice to select an ISP that is willing to protect your privacy unless one of the large companies agree to do so, and lets face it, they won't because selling your information means they are going to make a mint off their customers and the consumers are going to be subjected to an increase of spam, telemarketers, and junk mail because of it.

I'm not really sure what the solution is here, but ditching privacy seems like the wrong move.
 
...an unlikely development for a lot of Americans. At least, not anytime in the near future.
Agreed. While I'm happy to see regulations lifted, that doesn't leave us in an ideal situation. I don't foresee ISP's focusing on customer privacy in the short term. People will need to voice their concerns and make an effort to avoid the companies that won't listen, at least when they have a choice. There really isn't an easy path to take here.
 
I'm curious, is Firefox lying when they promote their secure/private browsing? Does the ISP still see the traffic?
 
I'm curious, is Firefox lying when they promote their secure/private browsing? Does the ISP still see the traffic?

No, and yes.

With some qualification. Their private browsing is more secure than normal browsing. But your ISP still sees all your traffic. They do not know, however, if your outgoing packets are then forwarded to a third site although they may infer it; and they certainly wouldn't know who/what/where that third site might be. Or if it's then forwarded to a fourth site. That's basically how Tor works.

If your traffic is encrypted, then your ISP cannot see what's being transmitted although they still know where it's going.
 
The best way to hide your browsing if you don't want anyone seeing - use a logless VPN such as "Private Internet Access" and an OS without "backdoors" such as a Linux distribution (Fedora, Mint, CentOS, Ubuntu, etc).
 

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