New 2020 Tesla Roadster

[SiriusR]

I have tons of respect for the performance of these Tesla vehicles, but have you never just melted in cargasm from hearing a car row through a few gears, leading to a down-shift or two?

I certainly can appreciate a car/engine that sounds nice (among my personal favs are Mazda rotaries, Ferraris and Chevy's LS series), but, sadly no kind of eargasm can help me win a race. Not to mention that I'm more of a music lover, as I've stated above.
To be quite honest, that post was directed more to "no sound no bueno" kind of people who constantly show their distaste towards EVs and express their fear of EV-only future due to EVs being silent. I see that as if I myself was running around in threads about hot hatches saying how I dislike these for their "ugly body shape" with little regard to that being my personal subjective opinion which doesn't make a car any worse from the objective standpoint.

I do wonder, if/when EV replaces ICE how do super cars differentiate themselves, outside of styling?

Their behavior. How quick they are, how wild they are, how well they take corners, etc.

 

[Andyc709292]

I enjoy a good Sunday roast, a bit of beef, some veges and of course roast potatoes. This makes a reasonable meal. Then some good gravy and a bit of horseradish and the meal becomes a feast that slates my hunger and satisfies me far more than meat and veg.

I just can't get excited about electric cars. They're quality meat and fancy vegetables for sure, but there's no soul, no gravy to savor or horseradish to dip into.

A few weeks back I had the amazing opportunity to drive a McLaren 650s, something that beyond gaming I'll never have the personal privilege to own. And I can tell you that the experience went far beyond being faster than everything on road and instant boost (though in fairness it really was). The gravy of that experience was that at idle it had some trim rattling somewhere, that on boot it wound up and sounded fantastic and generally, the feeling of driving something that had a mechanical soul.

Well done Tesla, you own the lists of firsts and fastest but I'd still choose an 'old' super car over your electric car.

 

[Carbon_6]

Is it just me, or can anyone else see 718 Cayman in the rear profile?

 

[Aaron Lean]

I don't think so. Don't think they intended any similarities either.

Am I the only one who thinks this car looks like the 2017 NSX?

 

[Chin]

Wait, so after all these yrs,... with the Veyron, Hennessey, Koenig etc.... and after all the scrapping to see who can pry as much hp from an engine as possible to breach 250mph?

Turns out, it can all be done with...... Battery power?

 

[McLaren]

You can do it with a jet engine too, but that doesn’t make it efficient. I’m sure the development of the batteries in addition to what else they wanted those super cars to do was not obtainable, hence why they went with an engine platform they knew was capable. Those super cars are also monstrous in price; I’m guessing a battery sourced power plant would’ve been insane as well.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Wait, so after all these yrs,... with the Veyron, Hennessey, Koenig etc.... and after all the scrapping to see who can pry as much hp from an engine as possible to breach 250mph?

Turns out, it can all be done with...... Battery power?

Nothing has turned out yet, which is kind of an important distinction.

 

[bremics]

VW has 0 profit with Bugatti but they at least sell millions of Polos, Golfs, Caddys, Passats (etc) to make up for it.

It looks like Tesla wants to put the chariot before the horses. They're not even selling and delivering the model 3 and now came up with 2 more models. :/

I'd love to see them success but this seems so awkward.

Does VW even make money off of those things?

I bet this thing costs as much as a Model S to make, selling one is probably the same as selling a hundred Model 3 in terms profit margin lol.

And since they can't even put out a hundred Model 3s...

 

[Wolfe]

I have tons of respect for the performance of these Tesla vehicles, but have you never just melted in cargasm from hearing a car row through a few gears, leading to a down-shift or two?

I could live with the silent powertrain if I could just have the rowing gears part of that experience in an EV. I'm more attached to three pedals than internal combustion.

I'd also be more interested in a Roadster with the dynamics and approachability of a Toyobaru or MX-5 instead of a bonkers electric hypercar, but that won't impress the masses like a new halo performance car, I guess.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

Matt Farah always mentions how uncomfortable it is to do a launch in the P100D. This is much faster. I wonder when we'll reach the human limit or at a comfort limit. I'm sure being shunted to 60 mph in 1.9 seconds won't feel that good.

 

[SiriusR]

I could live with the silent powertrain if I could just have the rowing gears part of that experience in an EV. I'm more attached to three pedals than internal combustion.

Even though I understand your sentiments, I'm not fond of an idea of a car with 0-to-60 in under 2 seconds and three pedals. You need light-speed reflexes to operate that kind of car, especially if you'd want it to reach its potential.

I'd also be more interested in a Roadster with the dynamics and approachability of a Toyobaru or MX-5 instead of a bonkers electric hypercar

To be honest, I'd really love the first gen Roadster with a renewed powertrain.
As for approachability aspect... correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that an EV of Toyobaru's price category can hold a decent charge. If you can't make the sucker charge fast, at least make me do that less often.

 

[05XR8]

Matt Farah always mentions how uncomfortable it is to do a launch in the P100D. This is much faster. I wonder when we'll reach the human limit or at a comfort limit. I'm sure being shunted to 60 mph in 1.9 seconds won't feel that good.

I don't hear too much complaining from top Fuel racers(which are probably closer to Matt's size ).

@SiriusR 60mph can be hit in first gear in some cars.

 

[homeforsummer]

Even though I understand your sentiments, I'm not fond of an idea of a car with 0-to-60 in under 2 seconds and three pedals. You need light-speed reflexes to operate that kind of car, especially if you'd want it to reach its potential.

It depends where the change points are set. In an electric car you may only need two or three gears at most, and since it's perfectly possible to engineer a single-speed car with quick acceleration and a high top speed simultaneously, you could feasibly get your 0-60 time in first gear.

That said, even if you can do that and have to change at say, 70mph, you'll probably still be shifting gears quite rapidly.

I think the bigger issue is that it'd feel rather redundant. I've driven an electric car with a manual gearbox, a converted 1960s Beetle. If you wanted seriously rapid off-the-line acceleration you could change from first to second to third etc, but in reality there felt like little reason not to just leave it in second for really quick acceleration and still have a decent top speed. Then shift to third for the highway - or, just leave it in third everywhere, since you still had quick acceleration but it'd also do 80mph in that gear.

You got the option of mechanical interaction with the drivetrain, but because the characteristics of an electric motor are so different to that of internal combustion, there's little incentive to change gears in that particular converted vehicle.

The motor has a far greater range than the original combustion engine - if it spins to 8000rpm for instance it's effectively doubling the reach of each individual gear compared to the original 4000rpm-or-so flat-four (hence why it'll do 80 in third), and that's to say nothing of the lower reaches that you simply couldn't use without slipping the clutch to hell in the original car.

Because electric cars are effectively direct drive you also have an advantage over even the best DSGs etc, in that there's no input delay with the accelerator pedal. The transmission isn't soaking up and wasting some of your inputs like a slushbox does, so that normal frustration of the engine not responding directly to your right foot isn't there. In some respects I suppose this would make an EV with a manual 'box more satisfying than a combustion vehicle since you've got instant "throttle" response for precise control, but then you have that even if you don't have a lever to play with.

I'm sure an electric car purpose-built with a multi-speed transmission would be a little different and probably necessitate the changing of gears to fully utilise the way the motor was set up. Several Formula E teams have geared setups (albeit with paddleshift rather than a stick shift). But I think this is something @Wolfe and I have disagreed on before. Rowing gears for the sake of it has about the same practical effect as a kid using one of these in the back seat:

 

[SiriusR]

and since it's perfectly possible to engineer a single-speed car with quick acceleration and a high top speed simultaneously

Is that possible in the ICE scenario?

The whole deal with shifting gears has a different disadvantage in my eyes: during the time you shift, no power comes to wheels, because duh, you disconnect the link between the engine and wheels to change a set of gears connecting them. Sure, that time is small, but you still lose precious time and speed. And manual gearboxes are worst offenders in that regard.

That's a picture from R&T's article comparing Lancer Evo X with manual (red) and dual clutch (blue) transmissions.
That's what I like about dual clutch transmissions - they minimize the shifting time to near absolute minimum (at the cost of bigger weight). Then there are CVT trannys, which don't need to disrupt the link between engine and wheels to shift. And then there are eCVT trannys, which don't need shifting at all (at the cost of lower top speed). And yeah, a presence of eCVT means that the car in question is a hybrid.

p.s.:

Skip to 3:40

 

[dbarrade]

It reminds me of the Mazda RX-8.

Funny, it reminds me of an Elise, I guess you see what you want to see in it

But I think you're right, from this angle I can definitely see an RX7 Concept:

 

[TVR27]

Funny, it reminds me of an Elise, I guess you see what you want to see in it

But I think you're right, from this angle I can definitely see an RX7 Concept:

I agree with you and it looks more like a Lotus on the side and looks like the mazda at the front. Haven't seen RX7 Concept before.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

Several Formula E teams have geared setups (albeit with paddleshift rather than a stick shift).

Purely in the interests of pedantry, the Renault e.dams car did at one point have a two-speed gearbox with a "manual" shifter. If I remember rightly, first was used purely for launching, then second was used for the rest of the race.

EDIT: Just read into it a little more. First was sometimes used for low-speed hairpins too. Apparently a manual lever/cable arrangement was used because it was lighter/simpler than the control electronics/hardware etc needed for paddle shifters.

 

[homeforsummer]

Is that possible in the ICE scenario?

Not really. CVT approximates that concept, but as the name suggests it's not really a single gear - it's a constantly variable one.

It's possible in an electric car because you can have off and on states even when the motor is live, and because an electric motor can deliver sufficient torque however slowly or however quickly it spins. There's no need for a clutch to gradually introduce a rotating input shaft to a static transmission (or a transmission spinning at a different speed, as it does when you're changing gears), no need for different ratios to make best use of the torque of the motor, and provided the motor can spin fast enough (provided the final drive is appropriate), and no need for higher ratios to turn high engine speeds into high road speeds.

If the motor (or motors in the case of all-wheel drive Teslas) develop a lot of torque, then you can have both quick acceleration and a high top speed together - the motors have the torque to pull a really high ratio (required for a good top speed) even at low speeds.

An ICE couldn't do that, unless you slip the clutch like crazy. You could probably get away with just a really tall gear in something relatively light with a big, torquey engine like a Corvette, but even then you'd have pretty lousy low-speed acceleration as the meat of the torque is a few thousand revs higher up. Or you could cheat like Koenigsegg with the Regera, by using electric motors to pull away from low speeds and gradually introduce direct engine drive with a clutch at a speed where the engine has enough torque to take over.

 

[Robin]

Funny, it reminds me of an Elise, I guess you see what you want to see in it

It reminds me of the concept Elise vapourware Lotus showed off years ago...

But it also does look very much Mazda/Honda.

 

[Adamgp]

If it indeed will hit those claimed performance numbers once it is produced, that is impressive. However, it is hard for me to get enthusiastic about modern supercars, EV's perhaps even less so.

 

[Pillo-san]

@Pillo-san did you even bother reading my post?


Isn't 0-60 in less than 2 seconds a reason to be impressed?
(and so is its 1000km range, but that needs to be proven first, I can't take a claim of range by EV that big without of a massive grain of salt)


Pardon my straightforwardness, but what the f:censored: is that "premium" deal you keep mumbling about? Elaborate.


Not really. In fact, modern batteries are still far from impressive.


wat


Yes, the EV powertrain is pretty simple compared to ICE-powered one (therefore it's more efficient), but particular components in that powertrain aren't. You can't make an EV that can go fast and far out of average components. That's, like, common sense.

I did later on when I saw that there was a post between me and the poster I org replied to. But it had nothing that I could argue against or for when I read your post. If you "follow me" so to speak so I did not opt for a reply.

I am not impressed by figures like these because it is an EV, instant torque. Only the grip/traction will be the hurdle here for good acceleration times. The range is what is impressing me, but I guess they simple made the batteries bigger not more advanced, but I have not looked into it maybe they have a new kind of batteries this time?

So you dont think Tesla is premium? Do you live in Norway where a Tesla is less than a v70 combi/wagon? But if you are not living there then yes, Tesla is considered premium, even the little Tesla 3 is premium, do you see a normal sedan hit the 35k mark? No, it places itself in the premium segment with audi,Merc,Bmw,Volvo and models in premium segment even thought it basically is more than half the cost of manufacturing of a regular car, the only cost that is high are the batteries. You dont think manufactures get new tooling for every new model that costs a fortune and everything is redesigned even though the new model is still relying on an combustion engine?

See you only make a post to show that you disagree with someone. If somebody says that the glass is half full you will see that it is half empty...
When I said that batteries was not bad back then, then it is a given that todays batteries are still not that impressive just like you say, so what are you trying to point out here?

People thinks that Tesla is super duper mega high tech, just like iphones. You wrap the crap in a slick and lean shell and everybody will think it is the greatest. To be fair, it is the greatest right now but it is because Tesla was the first commercial EV out there that was looking like something buyable and interesting compared to the fugly attempts before. This has Tesla be applauded for, but it still is not the rocket science that avg Joe thinks it is just a complete package filled with tech that the other car manufactures did not care for as they wanted to milk us as usual.

You cant make en EV go fast and far out of average components.

What? what kind of notion is this?
You cant make anything be faster, stronger more durable out of average components, to meet your goals you either need to improve on what is out there or redo it from scratch.

Like I said, I feel like you just reply to my post because I wasnt thrilled over why there is so much hype over Tesla as it is a platform that is way less intricate and actually cheaper than combustion powered cars yet it is in the premium segment. Sure precious metals are needed right now but even batteries can be made cheaply and easily, go and make your own if you want

But I do understand, Tesla is the first complete package that feels fresh and doesn't rely on an combustion engine.

And by the way, about the looks of the new roadster, I am a bit cynical but I think it is on the same old roadster but refreshed with new look and new upgraded powertrain. But who knows maybe it is new through and through.

 

[CodeRedR51]

That's what I like about dual clutch transmissions - they minimize the shifting time to near absolute minimum (at the cost of bigger weight).

If all you care about is pure speed, then a DCT is for you. Some of us still find pleasure in rowing our own.

 

[Wolfe]

@homeforsummer -- I haven't forgotten our conversation about the Beetle and I understand it's rather pointless to actually mate a manual transmission to an electric motor. What I meant is I'd be more on board with EVs if that wasn't true and you could get one with a stick.

Even though I understand your sentiments, I'm not fond of an idea of a car with 0-to-60 in under 2 seconds and three pedals. You need light-speed reflexes to operate that kind of car, especially if you'd want it to reach its potential.

I'm not so concerned about that. I'd rather row gears in a car that takes ten seconds to get to 60mph, because the thrill of mashing a pedal to get there in two seconds would be short-lived. Driving a manual is a pleasure all the time, every day, in any car.

 

[TVR27]

It reminds me of the concept Elise vapourware Lotus showed off years ago...

View attachment 691834
View attachment 691835

But it also does look very much Mazda/Honda.

That Lotus looks like the Honda Vison GT.

 

[SiriusR]

So you dont think Tesla is premium?

Tesla is a premium brand (or at least tries to be one). Thing is, reasons people are excited over the new Roadster have nothing to do about how premium that car is. Not to mention that nearly any hypercar on the market is a premium-class car (unless that's a barebones race car, like Apollo IE).

See you only make a post to show that you disagree with someone. If somebody says that the glass is half full you will see that it is half empty...

Yeah, I have to admit, it's easier for me to elaborately disagree with someone than to elaborately agree (and I'm somewhat upset about it). And I don't like posting something unless I actually have to say something. So far, the like button satisfies my agreeing needs whenever I have nothing to add.

People thinks that Tesla is super duper mega high tech

Perhaps that's people who have little to no grasp in technology.

the crap

Simple =/= crap. Not when it comes to EV drivetrains for sure. Unless you mean batteries.

Speaking of batteries,

but even batteries can be made cheaply and easily, go and make your own if you want

The problem with that idea is, I cannot make a decent EV using batteries I've made out of cheap materials in my garage. Neither is Tesla, or any other car manufacturer (every single one, they all live in the same world with same laws of physics and same element, thus they all play by same rules)

Now tell me, if EVs are that piss simple to make, why so few manufacturers make them, and why most of them suck (if you need examples - Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, Volvo C30 DRIVe, Ford Focus Electric... not enough?)? You've made a statement, now please care to give some actual worth to it.

Driving a manual is a pleasure all the time, every day, in any car.

Yeah, especially when you take a Lamborghini Diablo through a traffic jam.

The way I see it, if to compare driving to art, the driver is an artist and the car is a tool. A better performing car is a better refined tool. Even though you still can do wonders with less refined tools (as the skill of the artist still matters a lot), better refined ones provide a better experience, helping you make a smoother, sleeker, more colorful picture and push the limits of what you can do even farther.
Probably not the best analogy, but that's all I could come up with.
Even if to compare cars to parts of your own body, I'd really prefer hands that shake less.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Not really. CVT approximates that concept, but as the name suggests it's not really a single gear - it's a constantly variable one.

It's possible in an electric car because you can have off and on states even when the motor is live, and because an electric motor can deliver sufficient torque however slowly or however quickly it spins. There's no need for a clutch to gradually introduce a rotating input shaft to a static transmission (or a transmission spinning at a different speed, as it does when you're changing gears), no need for different ratios to make best use of the torque of the motor, and provided the motor can spin fast enough (provided the final drive is appropriate), and no need for higher ratios to turn high engine speeds into high road speeds.

If the motor (or motors in the case of all-wheel drive Teslas) develop a lot of torque, then you can have both quick acceleration and a high top speed together - the motors have the torque to pull a really high ratio (required for a good top speed) even at low speeds.

An ICE couldn't do that, unless you slip the clutch like crazy. You could probably get away with just a really tall gear in something relatively light with a big, torquey engine like a Corvette, but even then you'd have pretty lousy low-speed acceleration as the meat of the torque is a few thousand revs higher up. Or you could cheat like Koenigsegg with the Regera, by using electric motors to pull away from low speeds and gradually introduce direct engine drive with a clutch at a speed where the engine has enough torque to take over.

Not to muddy the waters too much, but an old-school conventional auto/torque converter setup is pretty good at doing this. While there is a lot of wasted energy in the fluid coupling, the converter does a pretty good job at translating higher rotational input speed into lower rotational output speed while multiplying torque. Add a second ratio and you have a pretty great drive train for a ICE engine with a lot of torque. The powerglide is a good example of this and the effect is somewhere between a modern auto and a CVT, and it's easy to see why they are popular with drag racers. Even with only two actual ratios in the gearbox, there is a pretty wide range of torque multiplication so you can gear the car to the moon in terms of top speed, but still provide quite a bit of acceleration down low. Again, the downside to the torque converter is waste heat/drivetrain loss and an overall feeling that the engine is kind of spinning away disconnected from the drivetrain (easy to see why they are NOT popular with non-drag racers), but the concept would seemingly apply to an electric car, probably without the need for the actual transmission.

For reference, you can hear that classic torque converter sound here:


The engine speed increases in a way somewhat similar to a CVT in relationship to acceleration.

 

[Pillo-san]

Tesla is a premium brand (or at least tries to be one). Thing is, reasons people are excited over the new Roadster have nothing to do about how premium that car is. Not to mention that nearly any hypercar on the market is a premium-class car (unless that's a barebones race car, like Apollo IE).


Yeah, I have to admit, it's easier for me to elaborately disagree with someone than to elaborately agree (and I'm somewhat upset about it). And I don't like posting something unless I actually have to say something. So far, the like button satisfies my agreeing needs whenever I have nothing to add.


Perhaps that's people who have little to no grasp in technology.


Simple =/= crap. Not when it comes to EV drivetrains for sure. Unless you mean batteries.

Speaking of batteries,

The problem with that idea is, I cannot make a decent EV using batteries I've made out of cheap materials in my garage. Neither is Tesla, or any other car manufacturer (every single one, they all live in the same world with same laws of physics and same element, thus they all play by same rules)

Now tell me, if EVs are that piss simple to make, why so few manufacturers make them, and why most of them suck (if you need examples - Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, Volvo C30 DRIVe, Ford Focus Electric... not enough?)? You've made a statement, now please care to give some actual worth to it.



Yeah, especially when you take a Lamborghini Diablo through a traffic jam.

The way I see it, if to compare driving to art, the driver is an artist and the car is a tool. A better performing car is a better refined tool. Even though you still can do wonders with less refined tools (as the skill of the artist still matters a lot), better refined ones provide a better experience, helping you make a smoother, sleeker, more colorful picture and push the limits of what you can do even farther.
Probably not the best analogy, but that's all I could come up with.
Even if to compare cars to parts of your own body, I'd really prefer hands that shake less.

Can you make a otto/diesel engine or even produce gasoline at home? Which is easier, an electric powered one or a internal combustion one? Especially if you make it at home yourself?

There is lots of different ways of storing electricity, mostly it is by making batteries with precious metals. Storing electricity is of course harder than gasoline because of the lackluster of battery progress. Or rather unwillingness in the past to even consider that route when you got cheap oil overflowing the world. Why develop new stuff when you can milk your customer for what they are worth. Why do you think EVs are getting interesting in today's society? Is it because of the pros that an EV has over an internal combustion engine or the fact that the combustion engine tech is getting more and more like a burden for our society/world in every possible way imaginary?

EV is an alternative and companies would still use otto/diesel tech and nothing else if it was not becoming extremely unpopular. Milking the customers has been a winning strategy. If a car manufacturer is reusing the same tech yet spending big sums of money on trending stuff like form/design and small gizmos in the car you think they would be willing to throw out the proved and true combustion tech in favor for EV willingly?

You think that the pros that electric motors/powertrain are known for just recently got discovered? Only the slow recharge, reach and cumbersome size/weight of the batteries have been the con and that would have been fixed long time ago if there was a will for that.

 

[Obelisk]

Can you make a otto/diesel engine or even produce gasoline at home? Which is easier, an electric powered one or a internal combustion one? Especially if you make it at home yourself?

Considering how easy ICEs can be...

Many third world countries use hot bulb engines because they're simple and easy to make.

 

[homeforsummer]

Not to muddy the waters too much...

Good point, though actually I'd momentarily forgotten automatics existed in that particular paragraph you highlighted so was referring only to manual transmissions! The conversation in the last few posts had largely centred around manuals so that's more what I was getting at.

An automatic transmission as we know them today wouldn't be the best choice for an EV anyway. Partly because you don't need one, but partly because of the losses you describe, which cycles back to the "it doesn't need one" point. Introducing drivetrain losses into something whose USP is thermal efficiency would be something of a backwards step.

Considering how easy ICEs can be...

Many third world countries use hot bulb engines because they're simple and easy to make.

Not much use in a car though.

An electric motor is even easier to make, as long as you don't want it to power much...

​

(And if you were struggling for a battery you can make one of those from a lemon...)

 

[SiriusR]

Which is easier, an electric powered one or a internal combustion one? Especially if you make it at home yourself?

If you can make something at home, it doesn't mean the result won't suck.
James May has made a full-sized motorcycle that actually runs entirely out of Meccano parts. Needless to say its top speed was 25mph, which it could only reach going down the hill.

By the way, not sure about ICEs, but you can make fully functional transmissions out of Lego nowadays.