New Honda CRZ Type R for 2012

[Jim Prower]

The K20 series motors are indeed solid. a turbo 1.6 might be easier to initially tune (crank up the boost) but eventually will need the same sort of buildup a N.A. K20 would need.

 

[Keef]

Not sure where you got the terrible weight balance thing from though. Many reviews I've read of the car seem to suggest it handles quite neatly, and that the little extra weight in the back can even give it a bit of a snap if you lift off the gas too quickly.

Typical sporty front-driver behavior. The car's weight balance is still awful because most of the business besides the batteries is still up front. Engine, trans, and an electric motor full of copper and magnets.

Whether a bigger fuel tank would be possible or not is a different matter though. I expect the battery packs have been laid quite flat and there's almost certainly a bulkhead between them and the fuel tank, so you'd have to embark on some major engineering to fit a bigger tank, I'd suspect.

Major engineering: complete. Why bother engineering when you can just strap in a fuel cell and use it like a motorcycle's reserve tank? Besides the cell, all the supplies can be had down the street at Autozone.

EDIT: Interesting watching the video and seeing how much more space the Insight has under the hood compared to the CR-Z. The K20 looks quite small in the Insight yet takes up most of the space in the CR-Z, by the looks of things.

Amusing how the first-gen Insight was probably the most cleverly-engineered Honda this side of the NSX, too. Gives you an idea of what Honda can manage when they really put their mind to something. Part of me really thinks I should have hunted down an Insight to replace the MX5 with.

I'd assume the space issue in the newer car is mostly due to crash structure. They've inflated the balloon, if you will.

As for engineering, I think you're off the mark. While the Insight was indeed a geniusmobile, it is a result of what Honda can manage when they put their minds to being Honda, instead of being Toyota. The NSX/ITR/Insight vs. most of today's lineup. Superior engineering vs. market share. That's the difference between the Honda that Honda fans like myself know and love, and the Honda that we're stuck with today.

 

[Eric.]

And you know we aren't going to see a 200hp Type R in the States. It won't happen. Plus, then that kills Civic Si sales, so then they may as well kill the Si when its sales disappear. Then those of us who would like a little practicality in a sporty FWD end up going elsewhere.

 

[niky]

Most hybrids have terrific weight balance compared to bog-standard non-hybrid front wheel drive cars. That's because they have a battery pack under the rear floor. It's amazing how easily you can get a Prius to drift with the ESP off.

The issue is simply: weight. Hybrids weigh much more than comparable FWD vehicles. Solution? Make them AWD. An AWD hybrid doesn't carry much of a weight penalty compared to an AWD car, and with all the electrical equipment over the back axle, balance will be very good.

I think that 1.6 is going to have to be a REALLY good motor to be better than the K20. Honestly, the K20 is one of the best N/A 4-Cylinders to ever be produced by a manufacturer, and will be hard to replace. (if ever)

It's still a class act in terms of specific output. Has some of the biggest potential of any engine... can be tuned N/A or turbo and has amazing headflow compared to anything else.

It'll be a sad day when the last K20 rolls off the line...

 

[Keef]

Back in the day Honda's B-series engines were looked at as some sort of engineering feat, but the K engines have left them in the dust.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Back in the day Honda's B-series engines were looked at as some sort of engineering feat, but the K engines have left them in the dust.

Yeah, no kidding.

I being a Nissan fan would have loved to have seen Nissan bring over the SR20VE 20V motor, but that never happened. Would have been great in the 02+ Spec-V cars.

Would have been great competition to all these Honda motors. 👍

 

[niky]

Yeah, no kidding.

I being a Nissan fan would have loved to have seen Nissan bring over the SR20VE 20V motor, but that never happened. Would have been great in the 02+ Spec-V cars.

Would have been great competition to all these Honda motors. 👍

Having seen what both are capable of on the dyno, the SR20VE is a great motor, but the K20 is just light-years better. Maybe with another few years development or more attention from Nissan, the SR20VE could have matched it, but by the time it went out of production, the SR20 was just too long in the tooth for Nissan to want to keep developing it.

Instead, they focused on the QR... and we all know how that turned out... ...at least the latest QRs are finally giving respectable performance, but that motor might be on the way out itself...

 

[homeforsummer]

I think that 1.6 is going to have to be a REALLY good motor to be better than the K20. Honestly, the K20 is one of the best N/A 4-Cylinders to ever be produced by a manufacturer, and will be hard to replace. (if ever)

I suspect the main reason the K20 won't be making an appearance is because of emissions regulations, particularly in Japan and Europe. If you remember back a few months, the Civic Type R has died in Japan and Europe because it doesn't meet either of their emissions regs and the cost of redesigning it isn't economical.

So it would make absolutely zero sense to drop it into the CR-Z, since they wouldn't be able to sell it in Europe or Japan.

Typical sporty front-driver behavior. The car's weight balance is still awful because most of the business besides the batteries is still up front. Engine, trans, and an electric motor full of copper and magnets.

Worth mentioning at this point that Honda's IMA system is absolutely tiny and contributes very little to overall weight. It's not a whole system like Toyota's HSD, it's literally a flat panel electric motor that goes between the engine and the transmission. That's why you can't actually see it when you peer under the hood of any hybrid Honda.

Major engineering: complete. Why bother engineering when you can just strap in a fuel cell and use it like a motorcycle's reserve tank? Besides the cell, all the supplies can be had down the street at Autozone.

You make a valid point, but you can't really expect a major manufacturer to just jury-rig an aftermarket fuel cell into a car that's cost millions to develop.

I'd assume the space issue in the newer car is mostly due to crash structure. They've inflated the balloon, if you will.

True.

As for engineering, I think you're off the mark. While the Insight was indeed a geniusmobile, it is a result of what Honda can manage when they put their minds to being Honda, instead of being Toyota. The NSX/ITR/Insight vs. most of today's lineup. Superior engineering vs. market share. That's the difference between the Honda that Honda fans like myself know and love, and the Honda that we're stuck with today.

How do you mean I'm off the mark? You seem to be agreeing with me that the original Insight is a brilliant bit of engineering It really is. Unbelievably aerodynamic, very light indeed, lean-burn tech, lightened internals and all sorts of other impressive spec. Supremely economical, and yet fun to drive.

It's definitely a pity there aren't more on the horizon like the cars you mentioned, but at the same time I don't think the modern Hondas are as bad as people make out. It's also important to point out that modern times aren't quite as economically stable as they were in the 90s and early 00s when Honda was churning out supercars, sports cars and over-engineered eco cars.

I'll fully admit that I would have preferred the CR-Z to take a few more leafs out of the original Insight's book.

And I still need to have a go in a CR-Z. Need to borrow one from the press office at some point.

 

[Keef]

Worth mentioning at this point that Honda's IMA system is absolutely tiny and contributes very little to overall weight. It's not a whole system like Toyota's HSD, it's literally a flat panel electric motor that goes between the engine and the transmission. That's why you can't actually see it when you peer under the hood of any hybrid Honda.

Magnets and copper don't weigh nothing, no matter how little of them there is. That motor propbably weighs a solid 50 pounds.

You make a valid point, but you can't really expect a major manufacturer to just jury-rig an aftermarket fuel cell into a car that's cost millions to develop.

I wouldn't expect that. I'd be the one putting a K20 in my car and I'd be the one doubling its cruising range too.

How do you mean I'm off the mark? You seem to be agreeing with me that the original Insight is a brilliant bit of engineering It really is. Unbelievably aerodynamic, very light indeed, lean-burn tech, lightened internals and all sorts of other impressive spec. Supremely economical, and yet fun to drive.

You made it sound like Honda is a company driven by engineering who has only been slacking as of late. I contested that, saying Honda was an engineering-driven company; that's why we got the amazing cars I mentioned. But Honda isn't like that anymore. The first Insight was a case of Honda being Honda, but the new one and the CR-Z are cases of a market share-driven company trying and failing to step out of the box. Honda has lost its way and is becoming more like Toyota every day because Toyota makes money.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Having seen what both are capable of on the dyno, the SR20VE is a great motor, but the K20 is just light-years better. Maybe with another few years development or more attention from Nissan, the SR20VE could have matched it, but by the time it went out of production, the SR20 was just too long in the tooth for Nissan to want to keep developing it.

Instead, they focused on the QR... and we all know how that turned out... ...at least the latest QRs are finally giving respectable performance, but that motor might be on the way out itself...

They could have taken it further, but the main reason for killing the SR20 anyways was because it's not a great emissions motor, unfortunately. You can bump up their displacement, and with better cams and a few tweaks I have seen the SR20VE pull well over 200whp easily.

And yeah, I've never respected the QR at all. Sure the torque is great for around town, but I'm all for snappy, high-revving 4-cylinders, which it is not.

 

[blaaah]

The k20 is dead because of emissions now.

 

[niky]

They could have taken it further, but the main reason for killing the SR20 anyways was because it's not a great emissions motor, unfortunately. You can bump up their displacement, and with better cams and a few tweaks I have seen the SR20VE pull well over 200whp easily.

Yeah, but with the same tweaks, a good K20 can be 20-40 whp clear of that.

But sadly, even the K20 is going the way of the dodo due to emissions.

And yeah, I've never respected the QR at all. Sure the torque is great for around town, but I'm all for snappy, high-revving 4-cylinders, which it is not.

It takes an incredible feat of engineering to develop a "performance" motor that neither has the ability for great naturally aspirated performance nor the robustness for turbocharging!

-

And so as not to be completely off-topic... I really like Honda's new L15 and R18 mills. Great specific output at not so high revs.

 

[homeforsummer]

Magnets and copper don't weigh nothing, no matter how little of them there is. That motor propbably weighs a solid 50 pounds.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, it's still heavier than not having it, but it's not the massive boat anchor some people seem to imply it is. Honda's hybrid system is way simpler and lighter than Toyota's, though of course it also can't cruise around solely with the motor either.

I wouldn't expect that. I'd be the one putting a K20 in my car and I'd be the one doubling its cruising range too.

Quite, which is why it's not a problem that Honda don't equip it with a K20, since those desperate to do so will do it anyway.

You made it sound like Honda is a company driven by engineering who has only been slacking as of late. I contested that, saying Honda was an engineering-driven company; that's why we got the amazing cars I mentioned. But Honda isn't like that anymore. The first Insight was a case of Honda being Honda, but the new one and the CR-Z are cases of a market share-driven company trying and failing to step out of the box. Honda has lost its way and is becoming more like Toyota every day because Toyota makes money.

Probably true, though I think there's a spark somewhere in there still. I know you're not keen on the CR-Z (along with the rest of America) but it's by no means a bad car and the majority of reviews I've read have even said it's a very good one, if a little compromised in some areas.

In my eyes it's still the most interesting small hatch out there too, and that's even in Europe where small hatches grow on trees.

I guess we can reserve judgement too until the CR-Z Type R arrives, as I can't actually think of a single bad Type R, even if some aren't as good as others. The FN2 is probably the least-liked and it's still a pretty good car.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt anyway since most companies are playing it cautious at the moment due to cost-cutting. The good cars will start appearing again once manufacturers manage to work out how to make them yet still meet all the fuel, emissions, safety and other regulations around the world.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Yeah, but with the same tweaks, a good K20 can be 20-40 whp clear of that.

There's a guy on the SR20 forums pulling 260whp. Not sure his setup, but the car is good for high 11-second quarters at 115 mph+.

 

[blaaah]

Update to the original article is that Honda are so keen to get this turbo 1.3 type-R up for sale due to very high demand and very low sales of the standard CR-Z is that they have fast tracked development in Japan and it could be out for production in time to be displayed at this years Tokyo show in December.
Oh and here are some pictures of a racy looking hybrid CR-Z-R

 

[eSZee]

Why is that spoiler on that car?

 

[Robin]

I can see this coming to the BTCC soon after its release. Looks slick!

 

[homeforsummer]

Why is that spoiler on that car?

Because it's a motor show concept and not what the actual car will look like.

And no chance of seeing it in the BTCC Robin, it's way too short for the new regulations.

 

[Pyle_PMG]

That is a beautiful car, I hope the rest of Canada and the US wakes up, I in no way support import cars, but... WOW! This car looks sweet, I hope that I can one day I could own that. And as for this thing not having a Honda-like engine, looks make up for anything, I'd drive it if it had a 20hp Briggs and Stratton engine in it... WOW!

 

[blaaah]

Because it's a motor show concept and not what the actual car will look like.

And no chance of seeing it in the BTCC Robin, it's way too short for the new regulations.

What is the minimum length for BTCC, I didn't even know they had to be a certain size.

 

[Stevisiov]

Because it's a motor show concept and not what the actual car will look like.

And no chance of seeing it in the BTCC Robin, it's way too short for the new regulations.

I didn't realise it's shorter than a Leon.

 

[blaaah]

Do you mean shorter than an Ibiza?

 

[homeforsummer]

I didn't realise it's shorter than a Leon.

Seriously? Have you seen a Leon and CR-Z out on the road? One is a compact coupe and the other is a family car. Wouldn't be surprised if the CR-Z is shorter than the Jazz it's based on.

Do you mean shorter than an Ibiza?

No, he means the Leon.

For reference. CR-Z is 4080mm, Ibiza 4061mm, Leon 4309mm.

And the new NGTC regs coming in next year are designed to encourage larger saloon cars, just as the series used to be. So Toyota Avensis, Chevy Cruze, Audi A4 etc. And the CR-Z is significantly shorter than any of those. I think the new minimum length is going to be 4400mm, although the current cars will be allowed to run alongside for the next two or three years. Not really worth developing a CR-Z for the series that will become obsolete very soon.

 

[mirial]

But it's front wheel drive. I REPEAT, IT'S FRONT WHEEL DRIVE.

 

[homeforsummer]

Well done! It is front wheel drive!

 

[McLaren]

That is a beautiful car, I hope the rest of Canada and the US wakes up, I in no way support import cars, but... WOW! This car looks sweet, I hope that I can one day I could own that. And as for this thing not having a Honda-like engine, looks make up for anything, I'd drive it if it had a 20hp Briggs and Stratton engine in it... WOW!

You have a better chance than us. I can't remember the last time a Type R was actually sold in the states. The Mugen Si & S2000CR were probably the closest we got to such cars in the last decade.

 

[blaaah]

Seriously? Have you seen a Leon and CR-Z out on the road? One is a compact coupe and the other is a family car. Wouldn't be surprised if the CR-Z is shorter than the Jazz it's based on.



No, he means the Leon.

For reference. CR-Z is 4080mm, Ibiza 4061mm, Leon 4309mm.

And the new NGTC regs coming in next year are designed to encourage larger saloon cars, just as the series used to be. So Toyota Avensis, Chevy Cruze, Audi A4 etc. And the CR-Z is significantly shorter than any of those. I think the new minimum length is going to be 4400mm, although the current cars will be allowed to run alongside for the next two or three years. Not really worth developing a CR-Z for the series that will become obsolete very soon.

I was thinking of the one make Ibiza series.
BTCC cars must be 1225kgs including driver, that would be the thing that makes smaller cars pointless. And they get even heavier through success ballast.
Too heavy in my opinion.

 

[blaaah]

The Honda TS-1X, the CR-Z Honda calls a test study for a future model ( CR-Z type R?)
Power-train not yet known just it's over the top visuals of a body-kit, stupidly large wheels and matte black paint job. I note it doesn't have a turbo scoop on the bonnet, not that that means it's not a turbo, but the Hybrid R CR-Z does have one.

 

[homeforsummer]

Too heavy in my opinion.

That's not a bad weight limit for steel-body sedans with a huge steel roll structure inside. That rollcage likely weighs a lot more than the trim they'll take out of a regular road car and without going down a silhouette route there isn't much more they could do to make the cars lighter. If a BMW 320si touring car is 1200-odd kilos then that's a good 3-400kg lighter than a road version already.

You're right though, a weight limit like that makes it pointless taking a relatively light car and adding weight.

 

[blaaah]

I have done quite a bit of stripping out of cars, you can easily remove 100kgs from an interior. A roll cage weighs from 30kgs for a small one to possibly 60kgs? for a full large one.