New Penalty System killed the "racing" in GTS

[Sven Jurgens]

Point was that, leaving aside the penalties, the SR 99 problem seems to be getting worse not better since 1.13 !!

Couple of weeks ago I posted this with some comments on distribution:

Now there are even more with >90 SR:

View attachment 721657

With the tool that is supposed to filter us before the race into races of similar cleanliness not working well at high levels, penalties are leant on to try and remedy things during the race, which clearly isn't even close to ideal.

And now there's a bug with 1.14 where a few people appear to have >99 SR

So - for SR S - clearly one size fits all wasn't working pre-1.13, and basing -SR (and penalties) on DR hasn't helped since. But for the rest it did seem to work pretty well. The only tweak needed is to reduce the amount of +SR available at high SR levels, in a smooth way, just to spread out that SR >90 group (which anecdotaly are mostly SR 99) .

The problem is the daily C. Daily A and B are usually fine with max 5 SR points to gain during a race, easily lost with 1 contact at SR.S. Daily C can net you 21 points at SR.S. It can net you over 100 points at SR.E. The point boost at lower levels and total points are too high. If the daily C was capped at +5 as well and a smaller point boost it would look a lot different. You can afford 5 or 6 hits in a daily C and still come out with a blue rating.Also driving a clean sector while driving without any other cars around should not give you any points.

I would say for any race:
0 contacts, max 5 SR gain for staying on the road
1 contact, max 1 SR gain for staying on the road (that's what it currently is at SR.S for most A and B races)
2 contacts, max -3 SR etc.
Regardless of the length of the race. The only thing a longer race can improve is to get back to that limit set by nr of contacts, reduced by 4 for each contact.

Then you can make the gains bigger and reductions smaller at lower SR levels. Below the midpoint between A and S (78 I think)
0 contacts, max 6 SR gain
1 contact, max 3 SR gain
2 contacts, max 0 SR gain

And so forth, making it easier to stay a certain level, but much harder to climb further up.

 

[lav01]

like I have said before, make it an actual penalty. You cannot race until tomorrow, You need to spend x$ to fix your car, or maybe it is just totalled and you have to buy a new one. 20 seconds or whatever is a joke. People ram at will and do not care. That is why I play offline more.

 

[Outspacer]

The problem is the daily C. Daily A and B are usually fine with max 5 SR points to gain during a race, easily lost with 1 contact at SR.S. Daily C can net you 21 points at SR.S. It can net you over 100 points at SR.E. The point boost at lower levels and total points are too high. If the daily C was capped at +5 as well and a smaller point boost it would look a lot different. You can afford 5 or 6 hits in a daily C and still come out with a blue rating.Also driving a clean sector while driving without any other cars around should not give you any points.

I would say for any race:
0 contacts, max 5 SR gain for staying on the road
1 contact, max 1 SR gain for staying on the road (that's what it currently is at SR.S for most A and B races)
2 contacts, max -3 SR etc.
Regardless of the length of the race. The only thing a longer race can improve is to get back to that limit set by nr of contacts, reduced by 4 for each contact.

Then you can make the gains bigger and reductions smaller at lower SR levels. Below the midpoint between A and S (78 I think)
0 contacts, max 6 SR gain
1 contact, max 3 SR gain
2 contacts, max 0 SR gain

And so forth, making it easier to stay a certain level, but much harder to climb further up.

It's crazy how much +SR it still gives, even after they've reduced the amount! SR E to SR S in one race is a joke

I agree that doing it per race rather than per sector is the only way to get it to work out in the end, even if that makes it a bit harsher on longer races. It's most neccessary at the highest levels, to help spread them out, and I can't see how to blend from per-sector to per-race smoothly (without having a threshold level where the scoring changes suddenly).

For the highest SRs, I'd make it very harsh indeed, since you'd expect that grade to mean absolutely clean racing. This was my idea from another thread:

My idea for SR is pretty simple: the maximum +SR someone can get from a race should be limited based on their SR. A simple formula would be to limit it to get them half-way towards SR 100 for a clean race, so just 1 point available for an SR 98! Even slight taps should be -1 SR, but some of the larger -SR cases possibly should be tamer - this isn't to make it more forgiving, just to balance out the reduced +SR available (also, it's crazy to see people lose over 100 SR in one race; that's not really measuring anything). So someone who habitually makes a dozen '-1' taps during a race will find themselves at an SR level where the +SR available balances that out - maybe still SR S, but low S. (The limit wouldn't change the calc much below SR S, but the system seemed to be working better there anyway).

With that, the -SR amounts for each type of incident would be the same regardless of SR level. I'd expect most of the super-clean racers to be able to maintain SR greater than 95 most of the time, but 99 only rarely.

(My example equation there is probably still a bit too generous - it would only take a few clean races to get to SR S from the bottom. So maybe a quarter of the way towards 102 would work better as the max available).

 

[Sean Renon]

So initially I thought the penalty system was strict, but better since the patch.

Yesterday in the FIA nations race I was 2 wide in turn 1, and conceded the line, but on our way to turn 2 I kissed the back of his bumper, 2 sec penalty.
Then on turn 3 I was dive bombed but gave space, and coming up to turn 4 I kissed another bumper, another 2 sec penalty.

Seriously I didn't even feel the contact between our two cars..............

I can't show a replay because I quit the race after I went wide on the start finish straight - I was so frustrated from the penalties that I couldn't be bothered to finish.

I'm also a little annoyed that I get a penalty after I wreck - like, is running wide onto the grass, spinning out and crashing (without hitting anyone) not enough of a penalty, but then I get up to speed and I get slapped with a 4 second penalty?

 

[cleanLX]

It's crazy how much +SR it still gives, even after they've reduced the amount! SR E to SR S in one race is a joke

I agree that doing it per race rather than per sector is the only way to get it to work out in the end, even if that makes it a bit harsher on longer races. It's most neccessary at the highest levels, to help spread them out, and I can't see how to blend from per-sector to per-race smoothly (without having a threshold level where the scoring changes suddenly).

For the highest SRs, I'd make it very harsh indeed, since you'd expect that grade to mean absolutely clean racing. This was my idea from another thread:



With that, the -SR amounts for each type of incident would be the same regardless of SR level. I'd expect most of the super-clean racers to be able to maintain SR greater than 95 most of the time, but 99 only rarely.

(My example equation there is probably still a bit too generous - it would only take a few clean races to get to SR S from the bottom. So maybe a quarter of the way towards 102 would work better as the max available).

I would 100% support this if the "blame detector" was functioning...

 

[Lion-Face]

I don't think a blame detector would help. Majority of drivers think they are in the right. One driver says he divebombed, the other driver says he left the door open and turned in on me. There will still be threads complaining about the penalty system.
I now just drive like any one touch is a penalty, so I avoid touching. Can still have close racing, I just leave more margin for error now. As silly as those bumper kiss penalty moments are, I haven't had an issue.

 

[Outspacer]

I would 100% support this if the "blame detector" was functioning...

Why not anyway? It would work far better than time penalties, with the blame detector broken.

edit: I do think that with it broken, they should give up on assigning blame. They can leave the code in to monitor it, but -SR etc shouldn't be based on it.

 

[cleanLX]

@Outspacer , I'm sorry, I just cannot "accept" a penalty for someone missing their breaking point and punting me off track... then loosing Sr in addition thereto...
(And before you start down the road of mirrors/radar/awareness...
I'm not claiming to be the best racer, but I gain spots through thinking and strategy, not pace, and the only way to strategize and think through the situations is to be aware... I watch the map, the splits, my mirror, the radar... I'm never surprised when someone is gaining/loosing to me, much less getting close, don't even think about in position, and alongside... please... so, don't even go there.)
There are folks that will literally change their "lane/line" an entire cars width last minute to run into you, to save their own bacon when entering a hairpin too hot... when you've already gone off the racing line a cars width or more in an effort to avoid just that... then there are those who simply choose not to brake, much less turn in...
Just one corner used as an example...

If you've not been the victim of the jackolantrens out there, then so be it, but be assured, they are out there, and outside of simply not entering a race, there are no ways to avoid some of those that'll get/use you to save/advantage themselves.
I get that mistakes happen, and little mistakes I'll race on, but when someone clearly lacks the skill, or track knowledge, or is intentional, and i am penalized... well... that's a broken system.

I will accept the most strict penalty system PD can devise, if they can at least come close to sorting out "fault". ... and I'd really prefer no means of "running it down", either carry it to the end, or serve on you next pit stop.
They don't have to get it 100% right 100% of the time, but they have got to do better than sometimes right... some of the time...

So... I need to add...
The best part of my argument is that I'm Dr.B, and apparently (according to posts in this forum) i could get away with a lot of the BS that i so despise...
I don't want to be raced that way, so I'll not resort to racing that way.
Double trouble is...
You have those gaming the system, for the sole reason of being able to bump/smash and run.
pathetic.
Bring back 1.13 penalties, serve them at end of race or in the pits and work on the fault detection.

 

[Outspacer]

@Outspacer , I'm sorry, I just cannot "accept" a penalty for someone missing their breaking point and punting me off track... then loosing Sr in addition thereto...
(And before you start down the road of mirrors/radar/awareness...
I'm not claiming to be the best racer, but I gain spots through thinking and strategy, not pace, and the only way to strategize and think through the situations is to be aware... I watch the map, the splits, my mirror, the radar... I'm never surprised when someone is gaining/loosing to me, much less getting close, don't even think about in position, and alongside... please... so, don't even go there.)
There are folks that will literally change their "lane/line" an entire cars width last minute to run into you, to save their own bacon when entering a hairpin too hot... when you've already gone off the racing line a cars width or more in an effort to avoid just that... then there are those who simply choose not to brake, much less turn in...
Just one corner used as an example...

If you've not been the victim of the jackolantrens out there, then so be it, but be assured, they are out there, and outside of simply not entering a race, there are no ways to avoid some of those that'll get/use you to save/advantage themselves.
I get that mistakes happen, and little mistakes I'll race on, but when someone clearly lacks the skill, or track knowledge, or is intentional, and i am penalized... well... that's a broken system.

I will accept the most strict penalty system PD can devise, if they can at least come close to sorting out "fault". ... and I'd really prefer no means of "running it down", either carry it to the end, or serve on you next pit stop.
They don't have to get it 100% right 100% of the time, but they have got to do better than sometimes right... some of the time...

The point is, SR calcs don't have to be right all the time. And the main reason for encountering jackolanterns etc is that both they and you are at SR 99.

Well, I'm assuming you're SR 99 most of the time, because if not, you are doing something wrong

Re. time penalties, I am totally against them where fault can't be determined (almost) 100% correctly. There is no case that justifies giving both players a time penalty, IMO.

So... I need to add...
The best part of my argument is that I'm Dr.B, and apparently (according to posts in this forum) i could get away with a lot of the BS that i so despise...
I don't want to be raced that way, so I'll not resort to racing that way.
Double trouble is...
You have those gaming the system, for the sole reason of being able to bump/smash and run.
pathetic.
Bring back 1.13 penalties, serve them at end of race or in the pits and work on the fault detection.

Wait, what????!!! Bring back 1.13 penalties, which were both harsh and broken fault?

I also think it's wrong to make SR / penalties dependant on DR level, it should be based on SR.

 

[TenderLoins]

Wait, what????!!! Bring back 1.13 penalties, which were both harsh and broken fault?

I would say yes but only if they were the same for everyone and they were added at the end of the race.

The 1.13 penalties were creating much cleaner races. The problem was every one in the same race wasn’t subject to the same rules and scrubbing penalties was/is causing even more incidents.

 

[Outspacer]

I would say yes but only if they were the same for everyone and they were added at the end of the race.

The 1.13 penalties were creating much cleaner races. The problem was every one in the same race wasn’t subject to the same rules and scrubbing penalties was/is causing even more incidents.

Those are some pretty big problems! But that's another discussion

I was just confused by @cleanLX. In one post he says "I just cannot "accept" a penalty for someone missing their breaking point and punting me off track", then in the next post says "Bring back 1.13 penalties". Seems to me that those are mutually exclusive!

 

[cleanLX]

Well, I'm assuming you're SR 99 most of the time, because if not, you are doing something wrong

I am, and it's a result of racing as fast/clean as I can, not through gaming the system.

Re. time penalties, I am totally against them where fault can't be determined (almost) 100% correctly. There is no case that justifies giving both players a time penalty, IMO.

Mmmm... if the fault system were better, and still came up empty handy, I could live with this... but, unfortunately, "gamers" will simply "game" it.

Wait, what????!!! Bring back 1.13 penalties, which were both harsh and broken fault?
I also think it's wrong to make SR / penalties dependant on DR level, it should be based on SR.

1.13, yes.
and, I actually believe penalties should be even across the board, again, to keep the "gamers" from "gaming".

 

[cleanLX]

Those are some pretty big problems! But that's another discussion

I was just confused by @cleanLX. In one post he says "I just cannot "accept" a penalty for someone missing their breaking point and punting me off track", then in the next post says "Bring back 1.13 penalties". Seems to me that those are mutually exclusive!

Hmmm... guess I was not clear.
Correct, or improve fault detection...
And, good with 1.13... 'cept serve penalties at race end or in the pit.

 

[Outspacer]

I am, and it's a result of racing as fast/clean as I can, not through gaming the system.

Mmmm... if the fault system were better, and still came up empty handy, I could live with this... but, unfortunately, "gamers" will simply "game" it.

1.13, yes.
and, I actually believe penalties should be even across the board, again, to keep the "gamers" from "gaming".

Well I still don't understand why you were arguing against an idea for an SR system that would be more likely (than the current one) to push people who don't try to race as clean as possible down, so you don't get matched with them.

What I was suggesting has got nothing to do with time penalties really. It can work with or without them.

 

[cleanLX]

now I'm confused... maybe I quoted the wrong person...
arg, yep... was meant to quote @Sven Jurgens

Sorry... it's all lost on account of my error at this point...
Carry on.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Getting bumped off the road at Big Willow by a driver that was already on my block list with no reaction from the penalty system, sure make it no contact at all again. Some people just can't accept racing rules and think a nose against your inside rear bumper is fine to guide them through a corner. I leave room, they nudge me off the road anyway.

Then I get a penalty for slightly tapping a car that screws up the final corner and panic brakes in the apex. It even helped him stabilize and go on, no positions changed. Yet bump passing me sending me into the dirt goes unpunished.

Anyway the incorrect and missing penalties aren't that big of a problem. I'll make the positions back in a 10 lap race, the dirty drivers usually can't hang on for that long. The problem is that these habitual dirty or at least very messy drivers still end back up at SR 99, and often still have a blue rating in a daily C race.

 

[Matty28]

It's still hit and miss. It used to be that you were guaranteed a penalty, often ridiculous penalty for minor racing incidents. Now it seems to be a gamble. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you aren't. They can still improve it for sure. e.g. I got a 1s penalty for this today

 

[nemu_05]

It's still hit and miss. It used to be that you were guaranteed a penalty, often ridiculous penalty for minor racing incidents. Now it seems to be a gamble. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you aren't. They can still improve it for sure. e.g. I got a 1s penalty for this today

you went off the track to gain a wider entry into the corner....

 

[Matty28]

you went off the track to gain a wider entry into the corner....

I'm the other guy not the camera car. The video starts at the relevant part. Yeah Stefounzy's penalty was fine and I guess reasonable.

 

[nemu_05]

ok my mistake. The replay is from the perspective of Stefounzy, I thought that was you.

 

[mthomas_95]

It's still hit and miss. It used to be that you were guaranteed a penalty, often ridiculous penalty for minor racing incidents. Now it seems to be a gamble. Sometimes you're lucky sometimes you aren't. They can still improve it for sure. e.g. I got a 1s penalty for this today

Whilst they did adjust bumper-bumper penalties I think side contact is similar to what it was in 1.13.

Also all your Christmas's came at once with his strategy, nice to see I wasn't the only Brit to win that race today heroically defending against the French

 

[Matty28]

Whilst they did adjust bumper-bumper penalties I think side contact is similar to what it was in 1.13.

Also all your Christmas's came at once with his strategy, nice to see I wasn't the only Brit to win that race today heroically defending against the French

Ah right. Maybe that's because you can still end someone's race with small side contact if you just nudge them off on the outside of a corner like the last one of Willow Springs?

Haha yeah. I was saving fuel aggressively until the pits. When I got in the pits I was daydreaming and forgot to press X to change tyres. Not sure how much I lost but it was probably in the range of 2-4 seconds. Still jumped about 1.4s relative to him so lucky he got stuck behind the Aston for a bit and definitely thankful I saved so much!

 

[bone_tone]

Getting bumped off the road at Big Willow by a driver that was already on my block list with no reaction from the penalty system

I got completely rammed off track at turn 1 at Willow Springs and got disqualified as a result - the guy that drove straight into the back of me got no penalty

This is the third time this has happened to me since I have been doing the dailies.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

The new penalty system works, racing is fine, dirty drivers get 'fined'. However penalties need to be carried to the finish instead of this irresponsible behavior.

I drove to the finish with that 1 second penalty, didn't make any difference by lap 10.

Every time someone tried to bump pass me last night they fell back after the initial bump, and I did not receive a penalty. Enough with 'creating' a pass by simply letting your car run into the one in front of you in every corner until the car in front is nudged off his line. There were other drivers that managed no contact passes on me, and I managed plenty no contact passes myself.

The only problem is that these bump passers still end up with blue ratings on a daily C.

 

[kjeldsen]

As i posted here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...the-racing-in-gts.376002/page-3#post-12238404

The current penalty judgement system seems very basic. Most of the judgment is based on car placement, as you can see in the video in the linked post (and on maybe of the others that have been posted) hitting a car where you are not in front of it will cause a penalty of some kind. From my personal experience hitting a car in front of you but with your brakes fully applied seems to reduce the risk of a penalty, the same applies if you apply the brakes just after hitting and keeping from the throttle "for a bit". The following penalty usually depends on what happens to the other car, if it goes of track and gets ghosted the risk of a penalty is almost certain (bumping people of track). If the car stays in front and there isn't a immediate change of position the bad car usual gets of lightly. And from my understanding and the discussion around this subject the higher the DR rating the higher the risk is.

My suggestion would be to attach a behavior value to every car in the field based on what the car is doing. The value should then be used to weigh the penalties when contact happens. The behavior value should be combined with a track knowledge value. Every race sees contact, the game should record these and send them back to PD so that PD could tune the judgment system pr track. For example the chicane at monza, lots of contact happens here. PD should be able to take the gathered data and come up with hotpoints on the track and where the cars are when stuff goes wrong. And their position to each other the speed and when the brakes were applied before contact.

Made up example at monza, car A is behind car B, they are getting up to the chicane, car A brakes to late according to the Track Knowledge and is certain to cause mayhem, instant ghosting and penalty when the car hits car B. On top of this car A now gets a negative behavior value attached.
The next time car A is involved in something in that race the chance of getting a penalty is raised
Same could be done with a aggressive dive down the inside of the same chicane.

Another example from the post above:

Interesting video, if you notice the radar, on every contact he is ahead of you, if the system isn't sophisticated enough he has the right of the way and you are at fault.

In order to judge you from the games perspective, the game should be aware that the other car just cut a corner (possible) and that car should have a negative rating attached (for the cutting) for x seconds so that any accident it causes would take that into account.

You car is neutral, when he hits you you are on the racing line, that should be a positive for you, but, since he is ahead of you he has the right of way, but with his negative attribute at least that should even things out. Same goes for next incident, the game already had the other car marked negative, when he goes off again, he gets another minus, and when he hits you he should have a penalty, be ghosted and you should be free to go.

Just a few cents, if others have ideas we could try to hammer something out.

 

[jdmnsprd]

It just has...
But I'm not talking about unfair penalties, or too many of them for whatever reasons. I'm talking about the loss of race fights!
They're just gone now.

Every time theres a good fight, or a fight is about to start, it gets destroyed by the system. Resulting in one of them (or both) to back out and slow down somewhere. (Please dont do that in corners anymore guys...)

I just gained 10 positions in one race (4laps) just because I passed people who waited out their penalties. This just wasn't exciting at all...
And most races are like this now. You either play save and don't try to get in any action, or you accept a penalty, because that is what will happen if you go head to head with someone now.

Its really disappointing, as all of my races today were filled with fair guys and lots of good racing. The system just killed them in the end

If you still dont know what I'm talking about, just watch this video

At 6:22 that was your fault so im so glad the algorithm is finally penalizing guys like you. Only the strong survive and adapt no compalonts from me because the best NEVER make contact

 

[bmxmitch]

At 6:22 that was your fault so im so glad the algorithm is finally penalizing guys like you. Only the strong survive and adapt no compalonts from me because the best NEVER make contact

LOL, yeah sure. Thanks for the laugh.
BTW, that’s not my video. It just showcased the issue with the system pretty well.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

At 6:22 that was your fault so im so glad the algorithm is finally penalizing guys like you. Only the strong survive and adapt no compalonts from me because the best NEVER make contact

Point number 1: It's not him
Point number 2: No it's not the youtuber's fault. No contact here, no contact there, you say, but who made the contact in the first place? Who didn't give enough room despite having overlap? It was avoidable, yes, he could've backed out, and maybe he should've. But just because he could've done something it doesn't mean the other person is free of charge. Review the replay once more and reflect on your opinion.

 

[jdmnsprd]

LOL, yeah sure. Thanks for the laugh.
BTW, that’s not my video. It just showcased the issue with the system pretty well.

I stand corrected because the guy on the outside didnt slow down and got too excited so it was inevitable he would go into the grass what you think the one on the inside was going to let him pass on the outside? lol either way deal with it and stop complaining

 

[jdmnsprd]

Point number 1: It's not him
Point number 2: No it's not the youtuber's fault. No contact here, no contact there, you say, but who made the contact in the first place? Who didn't give enough room despite having overlap? It was avoidable, yes, he could've backed out, and maybe he should've. But just because he could've done something it doesn't mean the other person is free of charge. Review the replay once more and reflect on your opinion.

Point 1: dont care if its him
Point 2 : there was contact if you mute the video and dont hear the guys annoying voice narrating the whole thing you can see they both made contact. From the looks of it they dont even look like theyre A/S or S/S from the way they drive. So im not surprised