New Penalty System killed the "racing" in GTS

[Spurgy 777]

No you can’t, but Sven is correct - the driver who “loses” the corner is obliged to concede the place, or be responsible for any subsequent contact.

No he’s not, if someone is alongside you should always give a cars width of room, even on exit. To say that you have to have your front wheels in line with the inside driver is utter stupidity. Find me a single rule book that says that and you might have the tiniest bit of justification, but you won’t.

Ofcourse you can't shove them off the track
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
However you can't block someone's line either by keeping your bumper in the way and forcing them to brake extra to avoid contact. That's not sportmanship, that's just slowing everyone down and inviting trouble from behind to catch up.

Anyway, I just got bumped at least 5 times by a B/S driver, he never got a penalty. In a different race I'm on the racing line, I am ahead and the car on the outside turns into me at the apex, I get a 3 sec penalty for him bouncing of my rear bumper, he gets nothing. It's getting very annoying how it discriminates on DR.

But that’s exactly what that rule is saying! What do you think will happen if you just move to the outside of the track when someone is there and they don’t back out? They’re going off track and your rule says that’s fine, it’s the outside drivers fault.

And yes, you can block someone’s line by putting yourself in the way, it’s not unsportsmanlike because you’re slowing each other down, you’re doing it to compromise the other driver so you can overtake them more easily. It’s called racing and tactics, in the example were talking about the outside driver would have compromised the inside drivers line into the next corner giving them the better run onto the straight which is a perfectly legitimate tactic.

Also frankly I couldn’t care less about some guys opinion who has seemingly never raced before (at least he never mentioned it) and thinks he knows what he’s talking about with racing rules because he watches F1. Yes they do drive seemingly to that “rule” in F1 at times, but that doesn’t make it a rule of racing or right. You’ll also find plenty of examples of racing drivers holding the outside line and being given space by the driver on the inside even when they’re not fully alongside.

 

[englishbob]

I think it's just here

Yeah as I suspected, utter bobbins

 

[dudejustsmokeit]

It is a joke was a Dr A Sr S the other day until I happened to race with some ping pongers on Sunday I didn’t hit anybody they hit me while losing control but my rating dropped to Dr C Sr C. Made my way back to Dr B Sr B today then proceeded to have five perfectly clean races in a row my ratings never improved then the sixth race I get tagged by someone again losing control of their car Sr rating down to a C How in the hell does all that work???

 

[TragicX]

Because of this I will no longer buy a Gran turismo game that has this system.
I’m done with being crashed all the time and me paying the penalty. One particular instance which is a good example is: I was in first and the 2nd place guy kept dive bombing me and knocking me off the road. I would catch back up and pass him on the straights and yet again, he would break a bit later and ALWAYS come all the way up and knock me out. Come to find out at the end of the race, HE HAD ZERO, that is ZERO pentalies at all that race, while I have about 11 seconds total (that I let run down of course). It’s absolutely absurd. I wouldn’t mind if they made it work correctly, but this system is just absolutely garbage and I won’t be buying Gran Turismo again. I was S rank Sportsmanship ranking for the logenst time, and another stupid incident just like this knocked me done to C rank in ONE DAMN RACE. bringing back up with the elo hell Neanderthals is absolute trash because this happens all day. So sick of this system, time to find another game.

/end rant

 

[dudejustsmokeit]

Exactly

 

[simsimsheree]

GT6's penalty system was rubbish. GT5's penalty system was rubbish. GT5Prologue's penalty system was rubbish. Noticing a trend?

I hate to say it, but I see Sport Mode as little better than Quick Mode from GT6. Totally unsupervised anarchy. PD's failure to steward their games was what made Leagues the place for clean racing in GT5/6. SNAIL, WRS, you name it. The one thing they had in common was HUMAN stewarding. No league level player would have got his hands dirty in a QM room when clean supervised racing was happening in the lobbies, but GTS has somehow persuaded us that matchmaking solved the chaos that plagued their previous titles.

It hasn't. Probably never will (no money in catering to the <10% that actually can and WANT to race clean).

Maybe it's time to bin Sport Mode, and go back to what actually WORKED in GT5/6? Organized Leagues, and well supervised and hosted clean rooms. It would be nice to go back to players willing to return position after contact and a pass, or shoving someone off track, or cutting 4 off the tarmac and gaining position, and hosts willing to boot players that refused to race cleanly. Unfortunately, Sport Mode has scavenged those Leagues and casual clean rooms and the old GT6 'clean scene' seems to be a shadow of its former self.

Personally, I see Sport Mode as little better than a rebadged Quick Race. Barely cleaner, barely less relevant compared to REAL racing, barely anything more than the kiddie bashfest that made Quick Mode totally devoid of serious racers.

 

[Draggon]

Personally, I see Sport Mode as little better than a rebadged Quick Race. Barely cleaner, barely less relevant compared to REAL racing

I've run into more dirty drivers in the 3 months I've had GT Sport than I did in thousands of laps in the GT6 quick matches.

 

[simsimsheree]

Possibly because QM was almost deserted compared to online lobbies..?

The few I tried were always smashfests. You sat around forever waiting for a room to fill up, then got punted off at T1.

Sound familiar? LOL

 

[llNovall]

I'm baffled at the posts I'm reading. Per the OLR on GTPlanet, contact should be avoided at all times, and as for corner rights, people should brush up on who actually hold that right. The lead driver has the right to whatever line he choses as long as he maintains that line. So on approach to a corner, if the lead driver sets up on a center line, he forces the chase driver to make a decision of inside or outside. If that chase driver chooses outside, the lead driver can maintain his line as long as overlap (a fender is typically considered proper overlap) is maintained. If the chase driver has sufficient overlap, the lead driver must provide enough room to not push or squeeze the other driver off track. Conversely, if approaching driver goes to inside, he must obtain proper overlap before the lead driver begins turn in for the corner to be considered his. If these rules are adhered to, contact should be minimal and penalties are likely nil. I have run for 3-4 years with the Snail GT spec league and have used practices and habits obtained racing with them in GT SPORT mode. I have had many of great races and very few penalties using these rules and habits. Drive the car as if money, life and limb depend on it, and you will see less penalties while still having some great, clean battles. My 2 cents.

 

[John Crellin]

I'm baffled at the posts I'm reading. Per the OLR on GTPlanet, contact should be avoided at all times, and as for corner rights, people should brush up on who actually hold that right. The lead driver has the right to whatever line he choses as long as he maintains that line. So on approach to a corner, if the lead driver sets up on a center line, he forces the chase driver to make a decision of inside or outside. If that chase driver chooses outside, the lead driver can maintain his line as long as overlap (a fender is typically considered proper overlap) is maintained. If the chase driver has sufficient overlap, the lead driver must provide enough room to not push or squeeze the other driver off track. Conversely, if approaching driver goes to inside, he must obtain proper overlap before the lead driver begins turn in for the corner to be considered his. If these rules are adhered to, contact should be minimal and penalties are likely nil. I have run for 3-4 years with the Snail GT spec league and have used practices and habits obtained racing with them in GT SPORT mode. I have had many of great races and very few penalties using these rules and habits. Drive the car as if money, life and limb depend on it, and you will see less penalties while still having some great, clean battles. My 2 cents.

I agree with the sentiment, but your rules dont mention the right of the lead driver to make a single directional change to defend the position (provided they do so with a significant amount of distance between cars so as to not force contact with the trailing driver.) The lead driver has every right to defend their position

 

[Spurgy 777]

I'm baffled at the posts I'm reading. Per the OLR on GTPlanet, contact should be avoided at all times, and as for corner rights, people should brush up on who actually hold that right. The lead driver has the right to whatever line he choses as long as he maintains that line. So on approach to a corner, if the lead driver sets up on a center line, he forces the chase driver to make a decision of inside or outside. If that chase driver chooses outside, the lead driver can maintain his line as long as overlap (a fender is typically considered proper overlap) is maintained. If the chase driver has sufficient overlap, the lead driver must provide enough room to not push or squeeze the other driver off track. Conversely, if approaching driver goes to inside, he must obtain proper overlap before the lead driver begins turn in for the corner to be considered his. If these rules are adhered to, contact should be minimal and penalties are likely nil. I have run for 3-4 years with the Snail GT spec league and have used practices and habits obtained racing with them in GT SPORT mode. I have had many of great races and very few penalties using these rules and habits. Drive the car as if money, life and limb depend on it, and you will see less penalties while still having some great, clean battles. My 2 cents.

Yes but the OLR won't penalise you for extremely minor and inconsequential contact, and it also won't penalise both drivers for an incident regardless of who is at fault. Those are the things that people are complaining about, they rightfully get irritated when someone smashes them from behind or they very lightly touch someone they're side by side with and they end up with a penalty for it.

 

[simsimsheree]

I agree with the sentiment, but your rules dont mention the right of the lead driver to make a single directional change to defend the position (provided they do so with a significant amount of distance between cars so as to not force contact with the trailing driver.) The lead driver has every right to defend their position

But generally, blocking is not supposed to be 'reactive'. Yes, you have a right to change your approach line to defend a corner, but not at the last moment as a response to the trailing driver setting up inside or outside. The idea is to decide BEFORE your opponent makes a move what is the best approach line to make it difficult for the trailing driver to pass cleanly. Generally, it is the inside line.

But it is my understanding that, if you are outside and the trailing driver moves to the inside, you cannot change your line to inside at the last moment, forcing the trailing driver to avoid you. Yes, it is his responsibility (unless he has a decent overlap) to avoid contact with you if you stay outside, but it is ALSO your responsibility to not defend so aggressively he cannot avoid you...

 

[John Crellin]

But generally, blocking is not supposed to be 'reactive'

I know what youre trying to say, but i disagree with the wording. by definition a block would be reactive. I agree that you cant swerve block, but if someone catches your slipstream and tries to move inside, you have every right (assuming there is enough room to not force contact as stated previously) to make a single directional change that puts you on a new inside line

 

[kjeldsen]

I see the car behind going down the inside, so I give room and I try to keep as much speed as possible on the outside.

The other driving inititally gives me a car width, but as we get to the 150m braking board, I get closed in. As this contact happens, I tap the brakes and slightly lift off the throttle and there is a slight bit of contact when I get squeezed by the other driver.

I get a 2 second penalty. But obviously, that's my fault and I should be less risky and next time, not get squeezed just before a braking zone... The other driver gets no penalty at all, even though the other driver squeezed me and forced me to slow down.

I'm S/S, the other driver is A/S, if that affects penalties still.



Sorry for the rapid 'looking behind'. It looks terrible when looking back on footage but when actually driving, it doesn't slow me down. I'm used to it and it helps me know where cars are more. (I wouldn't have to look behind as much if the roof cam had a rear mirror)

The penalty system see you tapping a car in front, which it considers a bad thing. The tapping and lift should have left you off easy.. imho, that showed you had no evil intentions, problem would be you did it after the contact. In this case the contact is so light (smooth driving dude) an advanced and very sophisticated system would measure the kinetic energy and let everyone go with a "warning"

 

[llNovall]

I agree with the sentiment, but your rules dont mention the right of the lead driver to make a single directional change to defend the position (provided they do so with a significant amount of distance between cars so as to not force contact with the trailing driver.) The lead driver has every right to defend their position

You are exactly right...I did forget to mention that important point, and am glad you brought it up. I also follow tge one move on the straight rule. If an approaching driver is approaching in the mirror, you dont necessarily want to jump in front of him, but you can move to the left or right to force him to go where you want him to go. My favorite move, is to post up center track, and as a chase driver goes toward the inside, I gently move in that direction. The amount of speed he needs to scrub to avoid contact will rarely afford a clean pass unless he completely out brakes you. This is where the racing tactics can come in.
In regards to getting rearended, @simsimsheree, I have found in my experience lately that the penalties have fallen harder on the driver causing the contact rather than the driver being hit. I was rearended twice last night in 2 races, and neither penalized me. However, there was a race that I attempted an aggessive passing move to the inside that pushed the outside driver off his line, and I received a 2 second penalty, and while I was passed I got caught, I was accepting of my fault. So far, for me, it seems to be working and I have noticed much better on track etiquette than there was before across the board. Just for reference, I am: DR: A, SR: S. Has been some great racing in this grouping.

 

[simsimsheree]

I know what youre trying to say, but i disagree with the wording. by definition a block would be reactive. I agree that you cant swerve block, but if someone catches your slipstream and tries to move inside, you have every right (assuming there is enough room to not force contact as stated previously) to make a single directional change that puts you on a new inside line

I guess it depends on your definition of 'reactive'. I have seen commentators at real racing only use the word when it comes too late to be safe or sporting. I guess I consider a block 'tactical' if done safely and with sufficient time, but 'reactive' if done at the last opportunity as a result of seeing a move by the trailing car.

But whatever the definition, we both appear to agree on intent!

And for Novall, I'd say yes, having the trailing car get a larger penalty (although many report this is still a bit iffy in implementation) is a good thing, but having the leading car get ANY is still far from perfect.

 

[Veinz]

I do everything I can to avoid any kind of contact, but I agree that the penalty system is a little too harsh right now. In my last race, I followed the guy a couple of seconds ahead of me into the pits. He took tires and fuel, and I only took fuel. So we both ended up coming out at pretty much the exact same time while ghosted. Somehow I got a 3 second penalty for that.

Very same race, another guy got a run on me going into spoon curve. Fair enough, I gave him more than a car width on the inside and we stayed door to door through 3/4 of spoon. Up until he carried too much speed on the exit and tapped me into the grass. I did not believe there was anything malicious about it but I still got another 3 second penalty for that one.

 

[Todo Em Lixo]

Yeah, hopefully PD gonna make another adjust of the Penalty system on next patch!!!

 

[TheNorfolkDad]

I see the car behind going down the inside, so I give room and I try to keep as much speed as possible on the outside.

The other driving inititally gives me a car width, but as we get to the 150m braking board, I get closed in. As this contact happens, I tap the brakes and slightly lift off the throttle and there is a slight bit of contact when I get squeezed by the other driver.

I get a 2 second penalty. But obviously, that's my fault and I should be less risky and next time, not get squeezed just before a braking zone... The other driver gets no penalty at all, even though the other driver squeezed me and forced me to slow down.

I'm S/S, the other driver is A/S, if that affects penalties still.



Sorry for the rapid 'looking behind'. It looks terrible when looking back on footage but when actually driving, it doesn't slow me down. I'm used to it and it helps me know where cars are more. (I wouldn't have to look behind as much if the roof cam had a rear mirror)

You got penalised by an algorithm, not someone actually watching the race. The algorithm allows the guy in front to squeeze you because you’re in his way. Whereas he would be massively penalised for that in real life.

My problem with penalties sometimes is that sometimes corner cutting is permitted and sometimes it isn't. It just can't seem to make up its mind!

I thought motor sport rules where that if ALL 4 wheels leave the track (i.e. over the white line generally) then its a penalty.

I had something happen in qualifying yesterday and no matter how many times I play it back I can't see what I got penalised for!

Soon as I saw “qualifying on Suzuka” I knew exactly where this penalty was gonna be. Touch that patch of grass to the left of the track and you’ll get a penalty. For what it’s worth you don’t want to be anywhere near that side of the track for the fastest time. Hug the right apex then flat out through Dunlop

 

[Bobert power]

I just witnessed the revamped penalty system for the first time today at Interlagos for Gr. 4 racing, and it was chaotic. Let me put it this way, everyone was in BMW M4s and Mazda Atenzas, and I assume they're the new go to car in Gr. 4. I started near the back since I lack a decent Gr. 4 car, so I went with a 650S because that's all I had. In a battle for 10th, I get rear ended by an Atenza, and suddenly, "10 second time penalty." I nearly had to come to a full stop to serve this, thus making me fall to DEAD LAST. The gap between me and second to last was now +8 seconds and increasing since I have no luck with the 650S. Needless to say, the new penalty system is saddening than what it was before the revamp, I've learned that the 650S is not the ideal Gr. 4 car, so I bought a V8 Vantage to try and be different yet competitive in Gr. 4.

 

[llNovall]

I just witnessed the revamped penalty system for the first time today at Interlagos for Gr. 4 racing, and it was chaotic. Let me put it this way, everyone was in BMW M4s and Mazda Atenzas, and I assume they're the new go to car in Gr. 4. I started near the back since I lack a decent Gr. 4 car, so I went with a 650S because that's all I had. In a battle for 10th, I get rear ended by an Atenza, and suddenly, "10 second time penalty." I nearly had to come to a full stop to serve this, thus making me fall to DEAD LAST. The gap between me and second to last was now +8 seconds and increasing since I have no luck with the 650S. Needless to say, the new penalty system is saddening than what it was before the revamp, I've learned that the 650S is not the ideal Gr. 4 car, so I bought a V8 Vantage to try and be different yet competitive in Gr. 4.

Despite my original argument that the change wasn't as badly noticed for me, I too had a race at Interlagos in Gr4 that saw its fair share of penalties. I now see what the frustration is all about. I had 2 2-3second penalties for minor side to side rubbing, both instances of which did not affect the other driver's line at all...just close quarters good hard racing. As the op argues, this new penalty system kills the ability to race door to door. Any contact AT ALL is being penalized turning the rest of the race into lap practice. Hopefully PD makes the necessary adjustments to get the good racing back.​

 

[TragicX]

I made a previous post talking about how garbage this system is, and now just got another helping of its ridiculousness. If people are feeling like a-holes, they purposefully break really hard and early and brake check you. I had a guy that I beat cleanly do it several times to me in the next races when we got matched together again. I have also had friends and other people I know having this done to them. It’s complete garbage that someone else malicious intent and immaturity cause my SR and DR even sometimes go down because of it. I couldn’t even go slow and give him tons of spaces because he just slowed down too. I don’t know if it still penalizes you on straights for that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did because of this awful system. They have a lot of work to do, and the BETTER be doing it to fix this garbage system.

 

[HunterJ90]

What bugs the piss out of me is that lapped drivers don't have sensitive ghosting. An example being, in a tourney race I was nailing corners. I ended up lapping a few drivers and the second to last corner I lapped one more and coming upon the final corner he full on rear-ended me. This caused me to lose the race(aint fist you're last) and actually place 4th. Point being, if drivers in a tourney are somewhere they shouldn't be and they get lapped 100% ghosting should be on for them. Like, they should not be able to collide with any racer who has lapped them. Salty scrubs. GIT GUD AND QUIT BEING...SALTY!!!

 

[HunterJ90]

or your opponents can git gud and not have penelties. Don't blame it on the system, blame the skill(or lack thereof)

 

[DLZ72]

Just a little clip for the people who think this is a no-contact sport



THIS, is racing!

No crazy penalties or driving rating fauling things up like in the PS4 racing simulator GT Sport...

 

[Smyven]

No crazy penalties or driving rating fauling things up like in the PS4 racing simulator GT Sport...

Brilliant post. GTS needs to man up, get fun again, it’s sterile approach is killing it.

 

[anthonyfa18]

Yess it is pleas look here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...lty-fix-asap-please-polyphony-digital.377028/