GT7 Penalty System

[Sven Jurgens]

Well, that's what you see, and it did respect track limits. It was just better at knowing where they are because it refers to the code rather than eyesight like we do.

It has many uses outside of simply racing, and most of those are what will actually make a difference. As a competitor, it's pretty much useless.

It 'respected' the broken track limits PD uses. 2 wheels inside the white lines didn't apply. I had screenshots of Sophy driving a car width outside the lines. But I guess it's good at finding where the track limits are broken. Sophy also got plenty ignoring track limits penalties at Le Mans, couldn't even follow the broken ones. (In the first showcase the track limit penalties were turned off)

True, pretty useless as a competitor unless PD bothers teaching it the rules of racing. Which they'll need to do anyway for the AI to have any chance at assigning penalties correctly.

 

[Voodoovaj]

It 'respected' the broken track limits PD uses. 2 wheels inside the white lines didn't apply. I had screenshots of Sophy driving a car width outside the lines. But I guess it's good at finding where the track limits are broken. Sophy also got plenty ignoring track limits penalties at Le Mans, couldn't even follow the broken ones. (In the first showcase the track limit penalties were turned off)

Game map boundaries can be done many ways, but the most efficient way is with a black and white texture map. White is inbounds and black is out of bounds. Whichever way they do it though, likely has less fidelity than the visuals. So, even though a car may look out, it may still be in. The opposite will be happening in a few places as well (like RBR)

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Game map boundaries can be done many ways, but the most efficient way is with a black and white texture map. White is inbounds and black is out of bounds. Whichever way they do it though, likely has less fidelity than the visuals. So, even though a car may look out, it may still be in. The opposite will be happening in a few places as well (like RBR)

So is the "two wheels inside the white line" rule wrong, or are the track limits wrong?

https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gran-turismo-sophy/race-together/ (race day 2)

Figuring out where wheels are in relation to the track is the bread and butter of the simulation. No need for a texture map, the exact position of each wheel is known as well as where the track surface ends / changes to grass or kerb. No wheel touching the track, penalty, should it not?

 

[PirovacBoy]

So is the "two wheels inside the white line" rule wrong, or are the track limits wrong?

This is the MOST annoying thing I’d say.
It’s incomprehensible to me why PD just doesn’t stick to this General Racing Rule.
And its inconsistency in dishing out Track Limit Penalties too.
I don’t know if it’s just poor programming or intentional.
Like @Voodoovaj mentioned, they should definitely make it Black or White. Either or.
For example Project Cars 2 is Perfect in that regard.
I don’t know which parameters or Calculations they use but I never, not once received an unjustified Track Cut Penalty in that Game.
ACC on the other side doesn’t give you a Penalty if you didn’t gain any time Advantage, it just gives you a warning.
So it actually is possible to implement a working and strict Algorithm, it’s just that PD somehow refuse to do it 😕

 

[Voodoovaj]

So is the "two wheels inside the white line" rule wrong, or are the track limits wrong?
View attachment 1161397

View attachment 1161398
https://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gran-turismo-sophy/race-together/ (race day 2)

Figuring out where wheels are in relation to the track is the bread and butter of the simulation. No need for a texture map, the exact position of each wheel is known as well as where the track surface ends / changes to grass or kerb. No wheel touching the track, penalty, should it not?

The question is, how does the game know.

We can see it, and it looks obvious to us. The game doesn't have eyes though. It has to figure out where that car is and where that line is. Grass has a material and such, and when the tires touch that material, we get the grass effect. Run off will often have the same asphalt material, so there is likely something else. Maybe a spline, maybe a texture map, but something, and yes, that something could be placed incorrectly.

And it being incorrect, again, speaks to a lack of resources to correct it.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

This is the MOST annoying thing I’d say.
It’s incomprehensible to me why PD just doesn’t stick to this General Racing Rule.
And its inconsistency in dishing out Track Limit Penalties too.
I don’t know if it’s just poor programming or intentional.
Like @Voodoovaj mentioned, they should definitely make it Black or White. Either or.
For example Project Cars 2 is Perfect in that regard.
I don’t know which parameters or Calculations they use but I never, not once received an unjustified Track Cut Penalty in that Game.
ACC on the other side doesn’t give you a Penalty if you didn’t gain any time Advantage, it just gives you a warning.
So it actually is possible to implement a working and strict Algorithm, it’s just that PD somehow refuse to do it 😕

In Forza 7 you can make the track limits visible as an assist and they follow the solid line perfectly. You don't get track cut penalties in Forza 7 but there are bonuses for clean lap / clean race which means staying inside the lines. It's very strict, very clear, with direct feedback when you go over.

It's indeed PD that's incompetent or just doesn't care.

@Voodoovaj Yep, you're probably right about the lack of resources to correct it. If one person is doing all of the AI now, I guess there are 0 people on track limit penalties... As with all the other penalties, it has never really been improved over GT Sport's lifetime. Only the penalty time has changed a couple times. And with Daytona dishing out 30 seconds for going wide in T1, it feels like the underlying code is one big mess.

 

[Roggers]

So is the "two wheels inside the white line" rule wrong, or are the track limits wrong?
View attachment 1161397

Slam dunk penalty in my eyes that. The fact you get a penalty for having all 4 wheels off the track by going wide, this should also be a penalty. I wish they changed the rules for going off the track. Id like them to see the same rule applied as F1. You have 3 warnings and are showed a black & white flag and then after that you get a penalty of 3 or 4 seconds evertime after that.

Seen a lot of talk about this Sophy thing, but is this been implemented in the game at all or is it just talk? And if it is implement how much difference will it make to single player mode racing?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Slam dunk penalty in my eyes that. The fact you get a penalty for having all 4 wheels off the track by going wide, this should also be a penalty. I wish they changed the rules for going off the track. Id like them to see the same rule applied as F1. You have 3 warnings and are showed a black & white flag and then after that you get a penalty of 3 or 4 seconds evertime after that.

Seen a lot of talk about this Sophy thing, but is this been implemented in the game at all or is it just talk? And if it is implement how much difference will it make to single player mode racing?

It's not in the game and if it comes to the game it will only be in a 'mentoring' role according to PD. It won't replace the crap AI for single player races, at most you might be racing Sophy one on one.

You know the code is a mess when going wide (and losing time) is more likely to trigger an ignoring tack limits penalty than actual shortcuts that save time. A while ago somebody (@sturk0167 maybe?) did a comparison of Dunlop at Le Mans. A faster run cutting more of the corners didn't net a penalty, while a slower run, barely touching the lines did trigger a penalty.

It feels so random, On N24, Daytona and many others I follow the exact same path as the car ahead of me, gap distance stays the same, sometimes a penalty triggers for one of us, never for both. What is the difference? So many times I think that should not be a penalty, as well as 'oh here it comes I went over' and no penalty.

And the always annoying, avoid a car, get an ignoring track limits penalty. Going wide is considered a worse crime than running into a struggling car ahead, possibly bumping them off.

 

[benjoi84]

I'd like to add, 130R at Suzuka has me scratching my head somewhat this week with regards to penalties. Three times on Monday night I carelessly ran off the inside COMPLETELY, and I was totally convinced I'd be hit with corner-cutting but got nothing.
I'm sure even the top-tier qualifying times could gain half a tenth if they chose to imitate my incompetence.

 

[Roggers]

It's not in the game and if it comes to the game it will only be in a 'mentoring' role according to PD. It won't replace the crap AI for single player races, at most you might be racing Sophy one on one.

You know the code is a mess when going wide (and losing time) is more likely to trigger an ignoring tack limits penalty than actual shortcuts that save time. A while ago somebody (@sturk0167 maybe?) did a comparison of Dunlop at Le Mans. A faster run cutting more of the corners didn't net a penalty, while a slower run, barely touching the lines did trigger a penalty.

It feels so random, On N24, Daytona and many others I follow the exact same path as the car ahead of me, gap distance stays the same, sometimes a penalty triggers for one of us, never for both. What is the difference? So many times I think that should not be a penalty, as well as 'oh here it comes I went over' and no penalty.

I’ve noticed this too about how different speed can and don’t trigger track limits penalties. I’ve not tested etc… but ive seen it and experienced it. Daytona race course layout especially at the chicane. I’ve followed a car through with exactly the same line and car infront no penalty but me penalty. Take the same line next time round or cut the corners more and no penalty.

And the always annoying, avoid a car, get an ignoring track limits penalty. Going wide is considered a worse crime than running into a struggling car ahead, possibly bumping them off.

This is why I’d like to see a black & white flag system implemented for track limits. 3 warnings and then on the 4th warning you pick up a long penalty.

 

[John Smith UK]

i See they still havent fixed the bug we’re a ghosted car switches back to normal while you are close and you get the penalty for hitting him, or the one where the driver in front brakes way too early for the corner and you run into the back of him and get a penalty or the pit stop bug where you pit together but come out with 10 seconds between you when it was 1 prior to the pit stop or the one where you are max braked into a corner and the other car also braking crosses in front of you and you can’t avoid the collision or the one where the car behind block passes you but by blocking forces you off the track - in a real race would be required t give the place back or receive a stop go penalty

the penalty system is still sub standard, the only tweak I see is that it does allow some more contact which is not a bad thing but already despite years of development they have not addressed the heart of the issues and glossed over It - but as long as people keep playing they don’t need to fix it.

 

[John Smith UK]

The other thing is the massive unbalance between the Sportsmanship points for a good race and a bad race - in my last race a friend has gone From S Rating to B - it happened to me a while back and took 20 relatively clean races to get back to A and 5 more to get back to S - it’s another of the developers archaic views on fair and balanced - I do wish for a GT game NOT developed by Polyphony

 

[Roggers]

i See they still havent fixed the bug we’re a ghosted car switches back to normal while you are close and you get the penalty for hitting him,

That is annoying but Ive learnt to live with it and drive to avoid the car where possible.

the one where the driver in front brakes way too early for the corner and you run into the back of him and get a penalty

I have no issues at all with that penalty. You drive your car to conditions infront you not the conditions you like. If the car ahead brake checks you then yes that wrong but when they brake a few meters earlier than you doesn’t mean you have the right to carry on and slam into the back of the car infront.

the pit stop bug where you pit together but come out with 10 seconds between you when it was 1 prior to the pit stop

not all pit stops are the same set time. have to factor in human error (thats if gt7 factors that into the game) and races that require fuel are all different lengths of time due to what in the tank and how much you out in,
Ive not seen this bug of a gap been 10 seconds, at most I’ve seen 3seconds.

the one where you are max braked into a corner and the other car also braking crosses in front of you and you can’t avoid the collision

Don’t understand what you getting at with this? You saying the player who cuts across you is not getting a penalty is wrongly getting a penalty?

the one where the car behind block passes you but by blocking forces you off the track - in a real race would be required t give the place back or receive a stop go penalty

this I agree that the game should be giving penalty for this.

the penalty system is still sub standard, the only tweak I see is that it does allow some more contact which is not a bad thing but already despite years of development they have not addressed the heart of the issues and glossed over It - but as long as people keep playing they don’t need to fix it.

Yes the penalty system needs improving and the idiots using dirty tactics need to be punished more, but last week and so far this week, apart from the odd few incidents, I’ve had no real issues with the penalty system.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

the only tweak I see is that it does allow some more contact which is not a bad thing

What. Of course it’s a bad thing. The goal is no contact.

the one where you are max braked into a corner and the other car also braking crosses in front of you and you can’t avoid the collision

If I’m being generous you’ve outbraked yourself. If I wasn’t you’re divebombing people. Either way you should get a penalty.

 

[John Smith UK]

What. Of course it’s a bad thing. The goal is no contact.

If I’m being generous you’ve outbraked yourself. If I wasn’t you’re divebombing people. Either way you should get a penalty.

If you watch any form of motor racing there is contact, to have a game that penalises for every Contact would be silly

no I didn’t out brake myself, assume you have 2 cars going Into a corner, one car slightly ahead into the breaking zone, both cars brake correctly but the car in front turns across the other car to make the corner, he turns - this slows his car, the other driver is braking to max, he can’t brake any more - they collide. You can argue this a many Ways but the game isnt Smart enough in this scenario , 1st guy was ahead but 2nd guy had the inside line into the corner so 1st guy should have allowed room for the 2nd guy not just turned across him.

I might be a rubbish GT player but I know proper racing rules and etiquette inside out - GT doesn’t replicate it at all well.

 

[BigSarj]

What. Of course it’s a bad thing. The goal is no contact.

I haven't watched the clip you guys are discussing but there most certainly is contact in racing. At least in the races I've watched since I was a kid. This game would be at its worst if door to door action resulted in penalties.

No contact can certainly be a theoretical goal, though. Something we can strive for and is even achievable in a lot of cases. But contact will often happen and it's heartbreaking to see someone get a penalty because one door brushed another.

I wouldn't mind such incidental contact being meted out with minor SR downs, though. Enough of these incidents likely means you're dive bombing at every opportunity and belong in "lesser" lobbies for a while.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I haven't watched the clip you guys are discussing but there most certainly is contact in racing. At least in the races I've watched since I was a kid. This game would be at its worst if door to door action resulted in penalties.

No contact can certainly be a theoretical goal, though. Something we can strive for and is even achievable in a lot of cases. But contact will often happen and it's heartbreaking to see someone get a penalty because one door brushed another.

I wouldn't mind such incidental contact being meted out with minor SR downs, though. Enough of these incidents likely means you're dive bombing at every opportunity and belong in "lesser" lobbies for a while.

How many races have you watched on tv with laggy cars? The collision physics on TV are a bit more realistic than the lag ping pong you get with the indestructible, non collision absorbing, cars in GT7

No contact needs to be a permanent goal for online racing. Avoid the slippery slope, allow a bit of contact and people will use it to gain an advantage. Very different from RL where any contact comes with serious risk and I'm pretty sure most RL drivers do their best to avoid any contact. In GT7, a bit of shoving the other car aside comes far too easy.

But agreed, no need for penalties as long as SR reflects the rate at which you touch other cars. I wish PD would simply adopt a nr contacts/incidents over time measurement for SR.

 

[BigSarj]

How many races have you watched on tv with laggy cars? The collision physics on TV are a bit more realistic than the lag ping pong you get with the indestructible, non collision absorbing, cars in GT7

No contact needs to be a permanent goal for online racing. Avoid the slippery slope, allow a bit of contact and people will use it to gain an advantage. Very different from RL where any contact comes with serious risk and I'm pretty sure most RL drivers do their best to avoid any contact. In GT7, a bit of shoving the other car aside comes far too easy.

But agreed, no need for penalties as long as SR reflects the rate at which you touch other cars. I wish PD would simply adopt a nr contacts/incidents over time measurement for SR.

Thing is, my CRB % is not nearly as high as it could be and I know for a fact that a lot of that is due to people turning into me when I'm side by side with them through the corner.

Mistakes happen, yes, but this is a thing that happens to me seemingly every other race. As if they think doing this will somehow teleport me behind them.

And I'm definitely slowing myself down by going a bit wide whenever someone is less than .350 behind me *(unless I'm familiar with the person). But that's my own rule of thumb and I almost never turn into anyone. But it does make me feel like a pushover.

Why doesn't PD implement the darkness on the side of the screen that is used in bumper cam to every view? Is there an explanation to this?

Fair point about the collision physics but I'm talking very, very light contact that normally wouldn't even affect the driving line. I love that closeness. Edit * there was a time when GT Sport punished that pretty harshly.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

So many overtakes are attempted that they know will almost certainly result in contact, but they do it anyway because there’s no consequences. Usually push to pass. The last system stopped this and it was great.

 

[Live25]

Personally, I just find it wildly inconsistent. In the same race, a maneuver used earlier, without penalty, at the same exact spot will trigger a penalty and vice-versa. Sometimes, they just pop up when I KNOW I didn't do anything wrong. From time to time, I will intentionally make moves just to see if I will incur a penalty for it (big lead, get bored).

Now I've never programmed a video game before, but I suspect for those who do, it's a fairly routine operation.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Atm it works backwards. Yesterday evening I finally got in a race where I could actually race a little (meaning the back was slow enough to keep up with at 1:46 laps at Watkins Glen). But as soon as cars are near, the bumping begins. Different cars, different brake points, either brake earlier or don't hang on to my bumper going into the braking zone...

Anyway I got bumped wide in one of the corners. Accidentally as the driver gives me the position back, but the game gives me an ignoring track limits penalty. So he got the position anyway at the penalty zone, plus another car made it through thanks to the incident. The driver that bumped me is fine, he's back in the same position, I lost two places.

If you're going to add penalties, you can't just do it for some things and not for others. Plus the inconsistency in track limits is baffling again. New track, chance to do it right, nope. Some places 2 wheels still on the kerb counts, other places it's the white line. Pit line is don't touch at all.

 

[BigSarj]

So many overtakes are attempted that they know will almost certainly result in contact, but they do it anyway because there’s no consequences. Usually push to pass. The last system stopped this and it was great.

These people shouldn't be in your lobby to begin with.

The other week, we went three wide at the final two turns of RBR. We all survived because we respected each others' space. It was kind of exhilarating. It would have been a shame if any of us had received a two second penalty.

 

[John Smith UK]

Denied my first win in the daily races by the utter crap penalty system, running up the final straight to the finish line, 2nd place car drives into me pushes me off track, he hits the pit wall. im Knocked off track but rejoin cross the line in 1st.

however receive a 1 second penalty for breaking track limits, he gets nothing for shunting me off the track and wins the race. The Penalty system is utter crap, it doesn’t learn, it’s parameters are black and white but GT7 is still as **** as GTSport.

 

[N1ghtmare2014]

I think they need to do something about the GT7 penalty system, doesn't seem fair that you get penalties for clean driving but someone hitting into you or using you as a wall is ok, I copped a penalty for driving clean no car near me then it pops up saying I got hit with a 2 second penalty for hitting someone off track yet the nearest cars were 6 sec behind and 10 sec in front.

 

[Foresticek]

I really hope PD are working on something about penalties. This is not state of the game, where they can be satisfied with. I hope testing new system just takes some time.
But if they do nothing about it, it will kill the game

 

[John Smith UK]

I really hope PD are working on something about penalties. This is not state of the game, where they can be satisfied with. I hope testing new system just takes some time.
But if they do nothing about it, it will kill the game

I don’t they are else you would have heard in a tweet or a blog, you have to remember the daily races and multiplayer are GTSport with tweaks - it isn’t all new, they have tried to allow the odd touch but penalties are still too random.

Polyphony will tweak it but to get a penalty system that works fairly and gets more thing right than wrong seems to require a wholesale rewrite of the game code and they will not do that.

in the last daily race, a guy - we will call him M - dives into a corner, hits the guy in front - we will call him V - and uses him as the brake but the impact is side on, V who was hit got the penalty, the game must have known that the other driver M had missed the braking point and couldn’t make the apex or the turn - in any real world scenario the penalty would have gone to the right person.

it’s just poor but as long as people play Polyphony will turn out a poor product

 

[Voodoovaj]

There seems to be two factions. One faction that thinks all contact requires a penalty, and the other that believes some contact is normal.

I'm definitely in the latter category. No contact is for track days. There's a big difference between touching someone and punting them into the weeds and, at one time, PD actually had that part right.

 

[Foresticek]

I don’t they are else you would have heard in a tweet or a blog, you have to remember the daily races and multiplayer are GTSport with tweaks - it isn’t all new, they have tried to allow the odd touch but penalties are still too random.

Polyphony will tweak it but to get a penalty system that works fairly and gets more thing right than wrong seems to require a wholesale rewrite of the game code and they will not do that.

in the last daily race, a guy - we will call him M - dives into a corner, hits the guy in front - we will call him V - and uses him as the brake but the impact is side on, V who was hit got the penalty, the game must have known that the other driver M had missed the braking point and couldn’t make the apex or the turn - in any real world scenario the penalty would have gone to the right person.

it’s just poor but as long as people play Polyphony will turn out a poor product

Blog or tweet? We don't know PD and Kaz exist, without these pre-update teasing tweets.

For me the solution of contacts would be easy. The game uses brake zones on every track like that red assistant lines to help new players. Why not use it as a measure of who is on fault on diving bombs? If you are not braking in the braking zone and you hit someone, it's your fault. If someone brakes too early before that zone, it's on him.

The same I would use in case of holding your line in the curve. When you are on inside part, you should keep it and don't turn outside.
Side by side contacts, like pushing someone out of the track could be also penalized easily, because you should hold straight line on the straights.

I don't think you would need to change something in code of the game

 

[rAtey]

Blog or tweet? We don't know PD and Kaz exist, without these pre-update teasing tweets.

For me the solution of contacts would be easy. The game uses brake zones on every track like that red assistant lines to help new players. Why not use it as a measure of who is on fault on diving bombs? If you are not braking in the braking zone and you hit someone, it's your fault. If someone brakes too early before that zone, it's on him.
I don't think you would need to change something in code of the game

The red brake zones are wildly inconsistent. Some are too early, some are too late, some are not a breaking zone at all. This wouldn't work. Theres more than one way to fix this, but I am not holding my breath. It just got abandoned in GTS.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I think they need to do something about the GT7 penalty system, doesn't seem fair that you get penalties for clean driving but someone hitting into you or using you as a wall is ok, I copped a penalty for driving clean no car near me then it pops up saying I got hit with a 2 second penalty for hitting someone off track yet the nearest cars were 6 sec behind and 10 sec in front.

I feel you. I got hit in Race A yesterday for 3 seconds. No explanation. All I know is there was mayhem at the end of the back straightaway before the hairpin (turn 10?) at least five seconds ahead of me, and when I finally came to the turn a ghosted car floated into the track and through me, and I was hit with the penalty. I’m assuming I got credit for someone else’s punt since I was the nearest car to the intersection after the incident. I was in last place anyway, so a bit of an insult added to my already bruised ego! 🤨