New Petrol & Diesel Cars Banned In The UK From 2040, Now 2030

[aurcom]

Al Gore has a new flick out... its been 10 years since An Inconvenient Truth

https://inconvenientsequel.tumblr.com/posts

 

[Joey D]

Of course. But will the majority in 2040 be ICE owners? Doubtful

Majority of cars in existence? No. Majority of new cars sold? Absolutely. And while they may or may not be traditional electric cars that we know now, a new car using a fossil fuel burning engine will probably be extremely rare in 20 years.

 

[marcvic]

Considering certain decisions recently made by the US president, this is very welcoming news. I agree with the sentiment that by 2040 the auto industry would naturally be electric car focused, but I like the message it sends.

How about people that only can afford cars for under 2grand(pounds, dollars, euros)? Will any car maker have electric cars for under 5grand by then?
Are there government incentives for crushing your petrol vehicle and wanting to get an electric vehicle? Or do we see a "Back to The Future" hover(electric) conversion company spawn?

That is the a very good point. Very interested in seeing who will be the Geo Metro of the electric car industry!

 

[Racecarman]

Great , I live in California, that means Governor Moonbeam will adopt this by the end of the year. Lord help us all...

 

[Joey D]

That is the a very good point. Very interested in seeing who will be the Geo Metro of the electric car industry!

China. Once they reverse engineer electric cars that work well they will start mass producing some seriously cheap cars. They probably won't be excellent cars, but the price will be right for those looking to find something inexpensive.

In the US though, I'd wager GM will be the first to make a domestic, cheap electric car.

 

[Racecarman]

Al Gore has a new flick out... its been 10 years since An Inconvenient Truth

https://inconvenientsequel.tumblr.com/posts

fake news

 

[lancia delta hf]

The big problem here is that this won't tackle pollution, cars are not the primary pollutant in the country, power stations are much higher on the list, and if we all drive electric cars we'll need more of those.

It won't tackle pollution overall but it will prevent towns from being infested with fumes. Sometimes I will take a walk into town and all I inhale is fumes from cars, it's disgusting. It doesn't affect me that much personally as I don't have any respiratory issues but it still makes breathing in unpleasant. I can 0not imagine how bad it is in places like London for people with respiratory issues.

Anyway I'm not interested in any race series that has only an electric motor. My passion is for combustion engines and that's where my pass for racing comes from too.

 

[Joey D]

fake news

Nope it's real news. The movie just came out.

Anyone I'm not interested in any race series that has only an electric motor. My passion is for combustion engines and that's where my pass for racing comes from too.

Have you had a chance to watch any Formula E races? They are actually pretty good and with several high-profile manufactures joining by 2020 it's only going to get better.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Nope it's real news. The movie just came out.



Have you had a chance to watch any Formula E races? They are actually pretty good and with several high-profile manufactures joining by 2020 it's only going to get better.

Yes I watched the first season just to form an opinion. My lack of interest has nothing to do with the quality of racing, because if it was I would have dumped F1 years ago. I'm not passionate for electric cars or electric sounds. I might as well watch lawnmower racing as that has good racing too.

I suggest everyone stick a set of headphone on and listen to this video and ask yourself do you care for racing without sounds like this ( for me, nope )

 

[INEEDNAWZZZ]

Time to buy a used Honda Insight! Or stick some batteries in my Starlet.

In all seriousness, I doubt much of this will come to fruition; it's more of a guideline than anything. As others have mentioned, by that time pretty much every manufacturer will have some kind of EV. Hyundai has gone from making crap in the 90s, to making respectable cars and now making an EV which is already selling well, even in a world of ICE. At that rate of progress, it's inevitable.

I suspect petrol / diesel will be something available for those who still need it, but will be much harder to access.

 

[Danoff]

Which sucks for those of us with nice, old ICE cars, because the petrol station will be an anachronism by then.

I have a nice old ICE car that I plan to still have in 2040. But I'm consuming fuel in it at about a rate of maybe 3/4 of a tank per year. I'm personally not too worried about being able to find enough fuel to keep using it. Even 50 years from now (when I'm 87 years old), I imagine I'll be able to fuel it with a little effort.

 

[witham]

Even worse than the power stations. Airplanes. In 2005 jet engines were dumping 600million tonnes of CO2 directly into the atmosphere every year! By now that figure is only much higher. As well as this jet engines also emit NOx the same as the diesel car. The aviation industry is the biggest culprit of 'global warning' yet a global blind eye is behind taken to this. Why ?

These days the ICE is completely strangled by emissions defeating devices which are very effective at pretty much culling all emissions.

This is going to cost the average motorist a massive amount as we are all going to be forced out of our normal cars into an electric nightmare whilst the aviation industry continues to pollute and get away scott free.

And let's not forget the huge hike in price for electric for home owners.

If the world governments really cared about the environment all the planes should be grounded until a solution is implemented as banning the ICE at ground level will have little to no effect, especially as they are going to be using Nuclear and Fossil power to generate all the extra electricity.

What's wrong with Honda's hydrogen car solution ?

They haven't really thought about any of this, the world had gone mad.

Just logged in after a long long hiatus to correct this...

Modern systems are just designed to offset the release of emissions to a later date e.g. outside of the emissions testing zone or when. There is some chemical activity and reduction of emissions but generally other than complex adblue systems most units do nothing after a few months. Even adblue systems require strict maintenance but this never happens.

So yeah these devices are miles away from culling all emissions. As an engineer, diesel engines shouldn't be applied to anything other than large vehicles and applicable whereby you are effectively beyond the usefulness of petrol engines.

 

[gladbecker82]

Nope it's real news.

The first is now basically debunked as almost nothing really happened what should have.

Have you had a chance to watch any Formula E races?

Yes i do and their sound is pretty terrible and the race tracks are all super tight concrete jungles that could be set anywhere. Yes i get the message of cars driving in a city but it needs more work. The level of excitement just isnt there, be it sound, speed or venues

 

[Edzgt5]

Bad news for McLaren-Honda, as they might have just sorted out their engine issues by then...

On a more serious note, I'm guessing this could be bad news for the future of 'conventional' motorsport (including F1) in the UK, and probably in the rest of Europe as well.

They're already hybrid now, will probably be 50% electric by then so practicaly no effect I rekon

 

[Joey D]

The first is now basically debunked as almost nothing really happened what should have.

I was mainly addressing your point that you called having a new movie out "fake news". It's a real movie that anyone can see. The topic might be debatable though, but that's probably better suited for the opinion forums.

Yes i do and their sound is pretty terrible and the race tracks are all super tight concrete jungles that could be set anywhere. Yes i get the message of cars driving in a city but it needs more work. The level of excitement just isnt there, be it sound, speed or venues

The series is only 3 years old, it's still evolving. Give it a few more years and they will probably start racing on big name tracks like Silverstone.

I've only ever seen it on TV since there's not a race in Utah but the cars still have a unique sound to them. You can also hear more of the car working, like the suspension or tires scuffing across the track.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

At least we won't have to pay road tax or congestion charge.

S

 

[Robin]

maybe people with homes can afford a Powerwall(if it's authorised in the UK), but people living in flats, how's that going to work?

If the government expects us to all install solar panels or storage batteries and go off grid for this legislation I hope they make it affordable!

Even worse than the power stations. Airplanes. In 2005 jet engines were dumping 600million tonnes of CO2 directly into the atmosphere every year! By now that figure is only much higher. As well as this jet engines also emit NOx the same as the diesel car. The aviation industry is the biggest culprit of 'global warning' yet a global blind eye is behind taken to this. Why ?

Because nothing for the moment can be done about it, there is no way we can make an electric large passenger jet. The only viable renewable power source for large aircraft is nuclear but we have already explored that in the cold war and it isn't a good idea! They have made progress in making planes more efficient by changing materials etc but fossil fuel powered planes will take decades longer than cars to get rid off.

What's wrong with Honda's hydrogen car solution ?

It's too expensive, yes its the better technology but creating electricity we have got down to a tee, refining and distributing Hydrogen commercially, not so much. We already have electricity networks pretty much everywhere, hydrogen would still have to be delivered in tankers to stations and it's more volatile than electricity. Lithium batteries we can make without a sweat, building reliable hydrogen engines is difficult.

 

[homeforsummer]

The series is only 3 years old, it's still evolving. Give it a few more years and they will probably start racing on big name tracks like Silverstone.

I doubt it - the city circuits are pretty much the point of the series. And honestly while I like dedicated road courses, there's real appeal to visiting a city circuit. When I went to see FE in London last year I found it really enjoyable - easy to get to, surrounded by amenities in a way a windswept airfield circuit isn't (I visited by hopping on a train down to London and then taking a walk in the sunshine to the circuit itself - I've never done that with say, Donington), and the racing itself was entertaining too (as it is at almost all the FE circuits).

The "concrete jungle" mentioned further up couldn't be further from the truth either. The London event was in a park - i.e. beautiful open spaces, trees, hint of a city skyline in the background. Paris is held around Les Invalides in front of some of the most spectacular buildings in the city short of the Eifel Tower, and New York had Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty in the background. I mean, I watch Formula E for the quality of the racing and interest in the technology, not the scenery, but there aren't a great many regular road courses with such iconic backdrops.

Honestly, I want to see the series continue on street circuits. It's one of the only series that can, because it's minimally disruptive in terms of time, and quiet and clean enough that it's easier to get permits for.

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

I've got a question :
While i'm not experienced in this serious conversation but ... What about cars that works on Air or Hydrogen ?
I think Hydrogen will be the best choice since it is an ICE and green energy.
Our planet is mostly with water.
If our cars just releases evaborated water then it will only increase humidity ( unless we countermeasure it with something which decreases humidity ) but it will go into the air then you know the rest for the water cycle
What's more is that we can still hear engines sounds

 

[Famine]

I think Hydrogen will be the best choice since it is an ICE and green energy.
...
What's more is that we can still hear engines sounds

Hydrogen cars, like the Toyota Mirai, Honda FCX Clarity and so on, use a fuel cell which combines hydrogen and air to make electricity and water. They're electric cars. They don't burn anything and they don't make engine sounds.

 

[Schmiggz]

What will be the difference between an electric Ferrari and an electric Toyota Corolla???
Thank God I'm in North America and North America will never ban V8's.

 

[Joey D]

What will be the difference between an electric Ferrari and an electric Toyota Corolla???
Thank God I'm in North America and North America will never ban V8's.

The same thing today, power. Supercar makers have already shown us what they can do with electric power and they're only going to get better at it. Also an electric Ferrari will still be a Ferrari in all it's red paint and carbon fiber everything.

 

[Northstar]

Thank God I'm in North America and North America will never ban V8's.

There won't be a need to ban them considering they are already being phased out in favor of V6's with various boosting methods. Really the only civilian vehicles that even have a V8 option these days are performance cars, pickups and pickup based SUV's and all 3 of those are heading down the I4/V6 path as well.

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

Hydrogen cars, like the Toyota Mirai, Honda FCX Clarity and so on, use a fuel cell which combines hydrogen and air to make electricity and water. They're electric cars. They don't burn anything and they don't make engine sounds.

I've seen cars which they've managed to make it work with water or hydrogen through the exhaust & it works just like a normal car.

 

[homeforsummer]

I've seen cars which they've managed to make it work with water or hydrogen through the exhaust & it works just like a normal car.

There are such things as combustion engines that run on hydrogen, but it doesn't really solve anything.

Hydrogen might be the most abundant element in the universe but it's a difficult one to gather up as most of it is attached to other elements in molecules (like water, which requires electrolysis to extract hydrogen from) or mixed with other elements and has to be reformed (from natural gas, for instance).

Both processes are energy intensive, so if you're looking for any real benefit from hydrogen it's better to use it in fuel cell vehicles and move yourself about with an 75%+ thermally efficient electric motor, rather than a <40% thermally efficient combustion engine.

Hydrogen has other problems too of course. It's expensive to store and it'd require a refuelling network little different from the one we already have (only with plenty of new hardware), which is also expensive. Whereas at a very basic level, an electric car just needs a wooden post with an electrical socket screwed to it and some power lines leading to it.

I've driven a fuel cell car - the current Honda Clarity - and it's a nice car. But quick refuelling aside, the same job could be done by a battery electric vehicle with similar range (Teslas etc).

 

[ApexDrift123]

Just to be clear , the issues on diesel and petrol cars in the U.K. does not mean that all petrol and diesel cars will be banned , just that any car invented or coming out soon at the time has to be electric . If there was to be a new Pagani model , and it was petrol / diesel It would be illegal. However , driving an existing Pagani ( diesel / petrol ) in 2040 would be fine.

So any premium car coming out at the time has to be electric.

In other words, all our favourite cars will be fine, just if Nissan want another generation of the GTR in 2040, it's gonna have to be electric. Diesels and petrols can still be imported and driven and bought second hand etc.

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

There are such things as combustion engines that run on hydrogen, but it doesn't really solve anything.

Hydrogen might be the most abundant element in the universe but it's a difficult one to gather up as most of it is attached to other elements in molecules (like water, which requires electrolysis to extract hydrogen from) or mixed with other elements and has to be reformed (from natural gas, for instance).

Both processes are energy intensive, so if you're looking for any real benefit from hydrogen it's better to use it in fuel cell vehicles and move yourself about with an 75%+ thermally efficient electric motor, rather than a <40% thermally efficient combustion engine.

Hydrogen has other problems too of course. It's expensive to store and it'd require a refuelling network little different from the one we already have (only with plenty of new hardware), which is also expensive. Whereas at a very basic level, an electric car just needs a wooden post with an electrical socket screwed to it and some power lines leading to it.

I've driven a fuel cell car - the current Honda Clarity - and it's a nice car. But quick refuelling aside, the same job could be done by a battery electric vehicle with similar range (Teslas etc).

Unless they find a certain technology to make it more efficint & cheap to produce ?
As we know - science had solved many issues ... this could be solved with the needed knowledge

 

[homeforsummer]

Unless they find a certain technology to make it more efficint & cheap to produce ?
As we know - science had solved many issues ... this could be solved with the needed knowledge

Potentially, but there comes a point where trying to solve such issues is more effort than it's worth if there are better alternatives available.

You can use energy far more efficiently by putting into a battery and using that battery to drive an electric motor. Hydrogen, and fuel cells, are effectively an extra layer of inefficiency between producing the electricity and using that electricity to turn an electric motor.

And if you combust hydrogen just as you would regular fuel, then you're dealing with even greater inefficiencies, since a combustion engine already turns less than 40 percent of the energy it receives from fuel into usable work. The rest of the energy is wasted as heat and noise. Burning hydrogen is cleaner than burning gasoline, but even less efficient - compressed hydrogen has about a third the energy density of gasoline. So like-for-like, a hydrogen combustion engine would produce less power than a gasoline one, and use more fuel to do so.

You could improve hydrogen production, in theory, but it's already so far behind that it doesn't make sense. In the same way that the low-hanging fruit of internal combustion has already been taken. The best way to improve the efficiency of an internal combustion engine is for it to share the work with batteries and electric motors in a hybrid system, rather than trying to improve combustion itself further.

At the end of the day it makes more sense, commercially, technically and environmentally, to put more research into improving batteries further than it does trying to make hydrogen work on the same scale.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Electric car batteries are currently responsible for only a tiny fraction of all the lithium mined for other uses - such as phones and laptops used by billions, rather than hundreds of thousands of people. Even so, lithium is highly recyclable, so it's not much of a problem anyway.

There was a big fuss a few years ago about nickel used in Prius batteries, with scary-looking photos of the Sudbury nickel mine in Canada as "proof" that it was destructive... but the wasteland photos were taken in the 1970s or something,

I think you're talking about this article (language warning: link), the vast majority of lithium isn't mined anyway.

Just for reference, no-one's had their leaded fuel cars taken off them - or even made illegal - despite it no longer being possible to supply them as new, and bloody difficult to find the fuel for them. And leaded fuel causes brain damage as well as all of the respiratory fun of NOx. These cars still exist.

Absolutely. Those who want to continue to run ICE cars will be able to do so. They'll just find that many areas (city centres and heritage zones) won't allow them and that the fuel will be harder to obtain. And probably very heavily taxed.

 

[Schmiggz]

There won't be a need to ban them considering they are already being phased out in favor of V6's with various boosting methods. Really the only civilian vehicles that even have a V8 option these days are performance cars, pickups and pickup based SUV's and all 3 of those are heading down the I4/V6 path as well.

It's just a roundabout expression to say that fuel engines won't disappear any time soon.