Nissan cuts 9,000 jobs as its vehicles fail to sell
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Keef
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Kirk Kreifels made a video about the Honda-Nissan merger and how important it is to Honda. Namely, Mitsubishi's good PHEV tech. Honda corporate basically wants to skip over PHEVs and go straight to BEVs which most of the industry has decided is a bad idea and I have to assume Honda will also decide this. But when they do decide that, they will already be behind the curve on PHEVs. That's where Mitsu comes in, because Mitsu is ahead of that curve. It's one thing they're actually getting right.
However, in that video he also mentions something that most of us probably agree on - a Honda that doesn't make ICE engines isn't Honda at all. Kirk mentions that Honda motorcycles is still a money maker, and we can assume that ICE engines are going to live much longer in motorcycles than in cars. Then I stumbled upon this video which sort of proves all those points.
Honda is ingenuis at ICE engines. They should definitely not stop.
However, in that video he also mentions something that most of us probably agree on - a Honda that doesn't make ICE engines isn't Honda at all. Kirk mentions that Honda motorcycles is still a money maker, and we can assume that ICE engines are going to live much longer in motorcycles than in cars. Then I stumbled upon this video which sort of proves all those points.
Honda is ingenuis at ICE engines. They should definitely not stop.
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That's because the Si remains nothing more than a fully-optioned, sporty trim for the Civic marketed only to us. It's a $30,000 car w/ basically zero options beyond accessories, same as it was one when I had one in 2008. The Miata starts at $30,000 but can rise right up to $40,000. The GR86 starts at $30,000 but that climbs to to $32,000 if you put a sport package on it. If you want extra trimmings, it's $32,500, but it climbs to just under $36,000+ fully loaded. The Miata really isn't a competitor in the Si's market to begin with, and the last review I saw of a GR86 against a Si had it coming dead last in a 5-way battle with it, the Si, the Elantra N, the Golf GTI, & the WRX as a sub-$35,000 comparison. The Si placed 2nd behind the Elantra N, same result when C&D put the Si, N, & Jetta GLI against each other.
So, really, the only company that's managing to best Honda's Si appears to be Hyundai who seem to be doing a phenomonal job against every one in every market they head into, esp. with the N/N-Line models. They're taking the Genesis name to the Hypercar class in Endurance racing which is an incredible feat. Toyota though, I don't think they've stolen anyone's steam. They build solid cars for enthusiasts, but they do the same thing you've mentioned of Honda; they're not really taking any risks, either.
Keef
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Huge risks, perhaps not, at least not yet. The 86 and Supra were both platform shares. But in my opinion the GR Corolla and Yaris are pretty ridiculous products, the Yaris in particular since it required an entirely new body structure that didn't exist beforehand. The engine for those cars is unqiue as well, at least currently. Toyota tested the waters in preparation for bigger risks which we're going to see with the in-house Supra and other rwd products they're currently testing (maybe alongside Mazda but not confirmed), the next-gen 86, and likely another sports car slotting below an upgraded 86. While Hyundai has gone whole-hog into N, they're still not bespoke sports cars unlike Toyota which may soon have three on offer, as well as a nonsense rally car homologation which hasn't been done since Subaru and Mitsubishi mattered.
Given the history of Type R I'd say that car is one of the safest bets Honda could make. There isn't even a hint of risk coming from them. In a small sports car market where Toyota and Mazda obviously want to compete and compete well, there are no rumors of a new Honda S-series car.
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I sort of wonder what it'd be called? It made sense for the S2000 to be named after the new millennium, while the S660 is named for its displacement. Maybe they could use a larger engine and then use the displacement of said engine for the name. So maybe we could get a Honda S2500, or a Honda S200 if it ends up having 200 HP. Could even be turbocharged, and/or a HEV or even a PHEV, as long as it's not a BEV and/or CVT. It'd also have to be a convertible, though I could see it being AWD instead of RWD, sort of like how the SLS-AMG and AMG GT were RWD and then the GT63 is AWD. Eventually, they could even have a S[whatever] Type R model. Announcing something like that would certainly get attention!
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Keef
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The S2000 was also initially named for its displacement, they just didn't change the name when they bumped the AP2 version up from 2.0 to 2.2L. If Honda wasn't lame they could've easily been selling a new S1500 and S2000 and probably selling rather well by using their current 1.5 turbo and 2.0 turbo. They'd have two trims, one with more power than a Miata and one with more power than an 86, and turbocharged which is something the market enjoys in a sports car. The car wouldn't have been a somewhat high-end sports car like the S2000 was but that's not the position of either the Miata or 86. They haven't even bothered with an Accord Type R which absolutely would sell as fast as they could make them.
An S Type R is something everyone has always wanted them to do. Again, Honda won't take risks. That said, instead of building anything anybody actually wants, they'd rather just get rid of all ICE engines and go EV which is obviously a ridiculous idea.
I don't think Honda will act on any of these enthusiast ideas before they start to struggle with drivetrain transition in the next decade or two. They can't just live on the CTR forever because literally everything else they make is an appliance.
Keef
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I think Honda is in much too tight a spot right now to consider a new NSX at all. I bet we won't see one hit the road for at least a decade. These are some of the many reasons they're so interested in this merger. Speaking of NSX, while Nissan has constantly updated the GT-R and it's still an impressive car today, the NSX hasn't been talked about in years and was basically forgotten about. They're so rare and such a market flop that any time I see one I forget that it's not new, and in fact I first saw a development mule at TRC in 2014, and the car began production in 2015, nine years ago. Those bright orange Acura Type S models that seem so new, that started with the NSX three years ago already but it was canceled after that.
I think Kreifels is right, Honda Autos is in trouble.
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Keef
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That Reuters article is dumb. It's framing this merger as a way to save Honda and Nissan from EV brands but that's not the case at all. This merger is saving Honda from itself and its simultaneous lack of automotive innovation and its overzealous EV push, it's saving Nissan from chronic mismanagement, and it's saving Mitsubishi from just complete lack of market presence. This doesn't really have anything to do with Tesla or BYD, as neither of those companies are going to particpate in the affordable hybrid market, especially the affordable PHEV market, which is what several companies have decided to settle on for the moment. They can't just keep selling brand new EVs to rich people forever and the massive industry-wide sales slump is proof of that. EVs just ain't it, not yet, but Honda is ill prepared for either reality. Mitsubishi's PHEV tech saves Honda, Honda's better management saves Nissan, and their combined resources save Mitsubishi.
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Nissan could face cost-cutting 'carnage' in Honda merger, Carlos Ghosn says
"There is practically no complementarity here," the former Nissan CEO told CNBC.
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While Americans are thinking about the idea of a body-on-frame Ridgeline (which I still don't see that as happening, especially since Santa Cruz and Maverick also exist), Japan is thinking that the merger could result in Nissan products being rebadged Hondas there.
Explanation:
Now given that I mentioned rebadged cars above - including the kei cars, the effects of it will have on the NMKV kei car venture at home is also something that cannot be counted out. I could see Honda replacing Mitsubishi's portion in the NMKV kei car venture as Mitsubishi formally exits the passenger (non-SUV) car market much like Isuzu does with the Mirage discontinuing worldwide after this year - but that brings into question over their Southeast Asian market MPV, the Xpander (at least the non-crossover style model) - which does have a Nissan connection, being rebadged as the Livina in Indonesia and Philippines.
EDIT: There's also this mockup with Mitsubishi's portion in the Honda-Nissan merger that suggest that the next Colt (currently a rebadged Clio for the European market) might end up a rebadged Fit/Jazz:
Explanation:
- Nissan Cube: Honda Freed (GT)
- Nissan Kicks: Honda Vezel/HR-V
- Nissan Note: Honda Fit/Jazz (GR/GS)
- Nissan Clipper (kei van): Honda N-VAN
Now given that I mentioned rebadged cars above - including the kei cars, the effects of it will have on the NMKV kei car venture at home is also something that cannot be counted out. I could see Honda replacing Mitsubishi's portion in the NMKV kei car venture as Mitsubishi formally exits the passenger (non-SUV) car market much like Isuzu does with the Mirage discontinuing worldwide after this year - but that brings into question over their Southeast Asian market MPV, the Xpander (at least the non-crossover style model) - which does have a Nissan connection, being rebadged as the Livina in Indonesia and Philippines.
EDIT: There's also this mockup with Mitsubishi's portion in the Honda-Nissan merger that suggest that the next Colt (currently a rebadged Clio for the European market) might end up a rebadged Fit/Jazz:
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There's no way that any of the bones underpinning Nissan ICE models make their way into Hondas. The Frontier and the Ridgeline can coexist; and even if they're not actually new most of the rest of Nissan's model lineup was significantly restyled since COVID or is being discontinued anyway which can last them until they are brought into the Honda fold proper with regards to drivetrains/suppliers/platforms as they work on PHEVs.
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