I think the only notable mag that said that the Z06 was twitchier than the Viper at the limit was Car and Driver, and that's primarily because they tested the car at Grattan (sp?) Raceway, which is an unusually rough racetrack. I've spoken with owners of Z06s, and the majority of them find the Z06 quite easily tamed at the limit.
Nordschleife road car lap times.
- Thread starter Dave A
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ROAD_DOGG33J
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Elegy
I don't know if you consider it notable, but Motor Trend also said it was twitchy.
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- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Elegy
Yes, it's called Grattan Raceway and it is just a few miles from my house (about a 20min car ride, 1-2 hours on a bike depending on how fast you can climb big hills). I've been around the track quite a few times on my bike (I used to participate in their Wednesday-night Bike Racing series) and twice in a car.
...But this is a track a lot of people underestimate given it's shape, but it contains many blind, uneven corners, off-camber turns, etc. The track upsets a given car's chassis quite often, and thus both GM and Ford have been using it as a test track, along with Car and Driver over the past few years.
Turn one is a good spot for cars to go off the track, and the last time I was there for a race, I watched an E39 M5 head for the bushes. Turn 3 is a scary one both on a bike and in a car... As you dive downward you make a sharp left turn up the hill. The back end will break out quite often on some cars, and when you are seven wide on bikes, it leaves little room for error. Between turns 4 and 5, the "Jump Hump" makes cars a bit twitchy, and I presume it is the one spot that relly messed the Z06 up. Turn 10 is an interesting one as well, as many people go wide expecting there to be track going out twards the lake. Heading up the hill from turn 10 and through 11 and 12, it again is a tricky little spot where too much power can bring the back end around on a car that doesn't have a good setup.
It is a great local track, and I'm so happy that it has been discovered by not only the automakers, but the magazines as well.
- 1,003
does R&T count? and Automobile? along with C&D, and MT, that's 4 mags calling the Viper easier to drive at the limit than the Z06.
Either way, if the driver's good, it doesnt matter, he'll know what/when the car's going to do, and how it's gonna do it.
Either way, if the driver's good, it doesnt matter, he'll know what/when the car's going to do, and how it's gonna do it.
LeadSlead#2
If a rodeo cowboy knows how bulls behave, does that mean he'll be able to handle the wildest, fiercest bull in the stable as easily as the oldest, most tired bull?
No matter how good a driver is, there's still a difference between a twitchy car and a communicative car.
- 1,003
Wolfe2x7
But bulls have minds, whereas suspensions, and chassis, always react the same. the statements made by drivers "this car is unpredictable" is nonsense, or an expression, it simply means that it's either harder to tell what happened different, or he's not realizing the difference.
But snap-oversteer, (due to tire spin) is one of the easier forms of un-predictablility, to figure out.
driving on a street, this will be much harder to find, as road surfaces will vary constantly, whereas on a track, it's the same 1-2.5 miles, over and over.
in answer to your statement though, obviously some cars are harder to drive at the limit, than others, however, it's the faster, more race-like cars that are harder to drive, with stiffer suspension, un-giving chassis, you'll feel more vibration, blurring vehicles "signals"
That's why race-car drivers race racecars, and magazine editors and testers, edit, and test.
LeadSlead#2
You're right, the statement "this car is unpredictable" is really stating that it's hard to figure out the car's limits, but even if suspensions and chassis reacted the exact same way every time (which isn't quite true), that doesn't mean that a skilled driver will predict those reactions the same way every time. As you said about the bulls, drivers have minds.
Mistakes will happen, no matter who the driver is. The predictability, or more accurately, communicativeness and twitchiness of a car's chassis and suspension will determine, in part, the magnitude of those mistakes.
LeadSlead#2
That's also why race-car drivers don't necessarily buy racecar-like sportscars to have fun on their days off.
Speed is nice, but predictability and controllability can be more fun.
- 1,003
Wolfe2x7
Actually, most racecar drivers don't feel comfortable in random street cars because they arent nearly as used to them.
And also, most racecar drivers drive cars that'll whoop any of the forementioned cars rears, in most every way imaginable.
And let's not confuse "twitchy" with "unpredictable", they can be quite different, though usually hand-in-hand, there are "twitchy" cars that are very predictable.
And let's not forget, neither Viper's nor Z06's are "twitchy" though the latter is closer, the only grip of them is breaking the tires loose, which isnt "twitchy", it's "powerful"
LeadSlead#2
Did I not specifically say "sportscars?" In any case, why would they feel uncomfortable in a Civic? Would it be because they would have so much trouble making a pass on a 2-lane road?
Which aforementioned cars?
LeadSlead#2
I never correlated "twitchy" and "unpredictable," although I did correlate "not twitchy" and "predictable."
Any car that breaks and regains traction in a harsh and/or hard-to-predict manner is "twitchy." That is my understanding and definition of the term, anyway.
- 1,003
umm Viper's, Corvettes, yada.Wolfe2x7Did I not specifically say "sportscars?" In any case, why would they feel uncomfortable in a Civic? Would it be because they would have so much trouble making a pass on a 2-lane road?
Which aforementioned cars?.
Uncomfortable racing them, taking them to their limits, because they havent logged in xxx hours with them.
Wolfe2x7
maybe you didnt mean they go hand-in-hand, but, kinda sounds like that was what you were saying.Wolfe2x7
true, in a way, though my definition was always, a car that has sharp steering, has very quick turn-in, and the back-end comes out like a.... Lotus Elise. the Elise was exactly my definition, along with many MR cars.Wolfe2x7
I've never considered accidental powerslides, "twitchy", so much as something you're already feeling for in any powerful car. My brothers firebird does the same thing, given it's measly 245's, so anytime It ever felt close, all I paid attention to was the rear, and let the rest take care of itself.
Poverty
(Banned)
- 3,567
7.39* -- 161.575 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1395 kg, *mfr. (quote sport auto 05/06)
Also
New Golf R32 - 8.49 min
a short verdict:
being 12 secs. slower than its predecessor is disappointing due to the heavy weight. Also the acceleration figures show absoluteyl no porgress coomapred to the GolF IV R42, no improvement at the Hockenheim short track as well.
The Golf V R32 more is a grand tourer than a sports car. It offers perfect handling, always enough power as well as a lot of fun to the every day driver eespecially due to the permanenrt 4WD which on the other hand also contributes o the high weight.
0-200-0 km/h in 35.5 secs. again this is abput 2.3 slover than its predecessor.
1.1g max. lateral accleration, this is not better than the 200 bhp Golf GTI.
Due to the 4WD, the Golf V R32 offers pretty good handling in the 36m slalon, the 11m evasion test and in the wet. Only the brakes are a bit weak and tend to fade.
Next issue is bmw 335i.
Also
New Golf R32 - 8.49 min
a short verdict:
being 12 secs. slower than its predecessor is disappointing due to the heavy weight. Also the acceleration figures show absoluteyl no porgress coomapred to the GolF IV R42, no improvement at the Hockenheim short track as well.
The Golf V R32 more is a grand tourer than a sports car. It offers perfect handling, always enough power as well as a lot of fun to the every day driver eespecially due to the permanenrt 4WD which on the other hand also contributes o the high weight.
0-200-0 km/h in 35.5 secs. again this is abput 2.3 slover than its predecessor.
1.1g max. lateral accleration, this is not better than the 200 bhp Golf GTI.
Due to the 4WD, the Golf V R32 offers pretty good handling in the 36m slalon, the 11m evasion test and in the wet. Only the brakes are a bit weak and tend to fade.
Next issue is bmw 335i.
There is an article in EVO magazine about the Jaguar XKR and their test facility at the Nurburgring. One of the Jaguar guys says that some manufacturers use special "Cup" tires when doing laps at the Ring. He says if they would use these special tires on the XKR it would shave off around 20 seconds on the lap time.
Just an interesting observation.
Just an interesting observation.
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- JDA1982
I'll update the list tomorrow morning, I haven't got the head for it right now but thanks for the new time Poverty, and also Bullitt73, that just goes to show that tyre's can be the most important modification you can do to a car.
Poverty
(Banned)
- 3,567
The 997 time is a manufacturer time I think hence the MFR* ?
Anyway a new time and its the 335i
Laptime Nordschleife 8.26 min (4 seconds slower than M3 and C55)
Laptime Hockenheim 1.17,8 min (0,8 seconds faster than C55 and 1.5 seconds slower than M3)
0-100km/h 5.6 sec
0-200km/h 20,7 sec
36m slalom: 130km/h (M3 123km/h, C55 122km/h)
110m change lane: 136km/h (M6 137km/h, M3 136km/h, C55 134km/h)
Wet track: 1.36,8 min (M5 E60 1.36, 7min)
G-powers: 1.15g (C55, 1,10g and M3 1.10g)
Overall score: 45 points (1 point better than M3)
BMW, are they cheating? it is called the 335i even though it comes with a 3.0-litres bi-turbo engine. But the two 39mm turbo chargers give it the advantage same as 0.5 litres more displacement.
The powerful engine has no problem with the weight of the car, always offers enough power and makes it a pretty good performer even though it has no "M" in its name.
The engine and 6-spped manual transmisison are a pefect peering, only there is no mechanical limited slip differential but an ESP which always interferes with throttle and gas, lacks a bit of traction. But the power of the engine always preserves the enthusiam of driving one.
You have to get used to the new active steering whoch gives a preview on the future things to come from BMW.
The 335i is a true dream car, nothing else, the quickest coupe without the "M" in its name.
Acceleration 335i:
80-120km/h 4/5/6 gear: 5.5 s /6.5s / 7.9s
80-160km/h 4/5/6 gear: 11.4s/13,7s/16.7s
80-180km/h 4/5/6 gear: 14,8s/17,8S/ ---
M3
80-120km/h 4/5/6 gear: 5,2 s / 6,6 s / 9,5 s
80-160km/h 4/5/6 gear: 10,9 s / 13,9 s / 18,9 s
80-180km/h 4/5/6 gear: 14,1 s / 17,4 s / 25 s
C55
80-120km/h 4/5/6 gear: 6,3 s / 7,9 s / --- s
80-160km/h 4/5/6 gear: 12,8 s / 15,9 s / --- s
80-180km/h 4/5/6 gear: 16,3 s / 20,2 s / - s
Anyway a new time and its the 335i
Laptime Nordschleife 8.26 min (4 seconds slower than M3 and C55)
Laptime Hockenheim 1.17,8 min (0,8 seconds faster than C55 and 1.5 seconds slower than M3)
0-100km/h 5.6 sec
0-200km/h 20,7 sec
36m slalom: 130km/h (M3 123km/h, C55 122km/h)
110m change lane: 136km/h (M6 137km/h, M3 136km/h, C55 134km/h)
Wet track: 1.36,8 min (M5 E60 1.36, 7min)
G-powers: 1.15g (C55, 1,10g and M3 1.10g)
Overall score: 45 points (1 point better than M3)
BMW, are they cheating? it is called the 335i even though it comes with a 3.0-litres bi-turbo engine. But the two 39mm turbo chargers give it the advantage same as 0.5 litres more displacement.
The powerful engine has no problem with the weight of the car, always offers enough power and makes it a pretty good performer even though it has no "M" in its name.
The engine and 6-spped manual transmisison are a pefect peering, only there is no mechanical limited slip differential but an ESP which always interferes with throttle and gas, lacks a bit of traction. But the power of the engine always preserves the enthusiam of driving one.
You have to get used to the new active steering whoch gives a preview on the future things to come from BMW.
The 335i is a true dream car, nothing else, the quickest coupe without the "M" in its name.
Acceleration 335i:
80-120km/h 4/5/6 gear: 5.5 s /6.5s / 7.9s
80-160km/h 4/5/6 gear: 11.4s/13,7s/16.7s
80-180km/h 4/5/6 gear: 14,8s/17,8S/ ---
M3
80-120km/h 4/5/6 gear: 5,2 s / 6,6 s / 9,5 s
80-160km/h 4/5/6 gear: 10,9 s / 13,9 s / 18,9 s
80-180km/h 4/5/6 gear: 14,1 s / 17,4 s / 25 s
C55
80-120km/h 4/5/6 gear: 6,3 s / 7,9 s / --- s
80-160km/h 4/5/6 gear: 12,8 s / 15,9 s / --- s
80-180km/h 4/5/6 gear: 16,3 s / 20,2 s / - s
- 29,983
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
Okay I've looked up the 997 GT3 time a bit more and the first source I found for it indicated it was an estimate but I found confirmation from Porsche that it was a manufacturer test and it ran the high 7'48's it's been rounded to 7'49. I've also added the BMW 335i coupe and the Mitsubhis Carisma GT Evo VII because I didn't have that on the list before today.
- 165
Where's the new(er) Skyline time?
Nissan Skyline GT-R R33 (???) 7:59 (Unofficial)
Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 (???) 7:52 (Unofficial)
I got these from the other 'Ring time database, And I see one is included here, and one is not.
I also know that many claim the Skyline held the 'Ring lap record for a little while, (R33, & R34, each), so even though I can't confirm these, the time sounds about right
Nissan Skyline GT-R R33 (???) 7:59 (Unofficial)
Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 (???) 7:52 (Unofficial)
I got these from the other 'Ring time database, And I see one is included here, and one is not.
I also know that many claim the Skyline held the 'Ring lap record for a little while, (R33, & R34, each), so even though I can't confirm these, the time sounds about right
- 29,983
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
The only other time I can find for the R34 GT-R is in the GTP Wiki page and theres o source, I found another time of 7:54 on another site but again there was no source. I know the R34 has run laps round the ring but unless I can find a time backed up by a source I can't add one to the list. Thanks for looking thoes up though, if you do come across a source for the time be sure to post it here and the time will be on the list in a flash.
Poverty
(Banned)
- 3,567
Yeah it must be especially seeing as the the 997 gt3 RS has posted a faster lap round hockenheim than the 996 version and porsche did say that this 997 version would be a couple secs faster round the ring than the 996. Oh well im sure sportauto will test it again some time in the future like they do with many of their top cars.
- 9,089
- Scotland
997 GT2 7:32
