Nordschleife road car lap times.

[Poverty]

The factory backed effort time of the 997 GT3 is somewhere around 7'40. I cant remeber what exactly, I'll check it out later.

 

[Dave A]

I doubt it will be as fast as the Turbo, it certainly shouldn't be unless Porsche have screwed with the balance of their models, they should leave the GT3 RS and GT2 to be faster than the Turbo, if they put the GT3 up there as well you've then got 4 models all with not to dissimilar performance but with some huge price differences.

 

[Poverty]

Ok Ive gone and checked it out and the fastest time for the GT3 ive found is 7'42mins.

 

[YSSMAN]

As always with Porsches, it is going to come down to who is the driver and what the weather is like.

When I drove a Porsche for the first time, it was quite strange... A completely different animal from the Corvettes and Viper I had driven before it. The starter was in a funny spot, the shifter was strange, and the whole way the weight shifted though the corners was as alien as the guy who cuts our neighbor's yard...

Still, I love 'em!

 

[Dave A]

Ok Ive gone and checked it out and the fastest time for the GT3 ive found is 7'42mins.

Do you have a source I can check for that one, ta.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

pagani zonda f's time is 7:32 from the sport auto supertest

video uploading now

edit video here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2303249#post2303249

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

RS4 in the same test 7:58
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35288

 

[Dave A]

I already have the RS4 time down at 7'58.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

RS4 -
1.25 max. lateral acceleration

 

[Poverty]

is that good or bad?

 

[Dave A]

That's very good, The Koenigsegg CCX in a top speed run hit's 1.3 lateral G's. It makes sense to me though the RS4 having that much lateral G, you have to remember it's 4wd as well.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

1.3 lateral G's is unreal, for an RS4. that would best a Ford GT, Vette Z06, and Viper by .15 to .20 G's. which is unbelievably massive, and laughable.
UNLESS, they tested it with the car sliding, which is a true result, but it can't be sustained, because it means you're constantly swinging wider, and wider.
Example: according to my G-tech my car can sustain about .82 G's. (not sliding) but if I crank the wheel hard in a turn, and slide through it, going faster than I could sustaining grip, I've seen as high as .96, quite the improvement, but I can't sustain it, cause I can only slide so far, before driving off the road.
Vette Z06: 1.1
Ford GT: 1.05
Viper: 1.05
according to the highest magazine test's I've seen, sustaining grip in a 200 ft. circle.
Now, before you go crazy, I know the RS4 is a very good handling car, but I also know any of the three above handle better, and all are lighter, and all are RWD, which helps very much in lateral G's
FWD: worst
4WD: mid
RWD: best

the Koenigsegg CCX may be able to reach 1.3, since I believe it's essentially a race car made street legal intentionally to set a ring record.
But not in a top speed run. a top speed run can't give you lateral G's, because your not moving laterally.
Plus, an 1100HP Viper only pulls .07 G's of acceleration at 200mph.
and that hits 217mph in the standing mile, and tops out around 250ish

 

[Dave A]

I know I was getting my latteral and logitudinals all mixed , but it's not that unbelieveable, the RS4 is a superb handling car, it can corner faster than an M3, not as fun as an M3 apparently, but faster, and noticably faster too. But to see what the RS4 really pulls you'd need to find more than one result quoting a similar figure. But Sport Auto is a very reliable source.

 

[Poverty]

I cant comment on this as this is the first time ive ever paid lateral G's attention, but I will see if I can get some other sources for comparison.

What I do know is that the RS4 could jump most supercars from a standing start.

 

[GM]

Thats a great list you have there live4speed 👍

 

[Dave A]

Thanks George.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I cant comment on this as this is the first time ive ever paid lateral G's attention, but I will see if I can get some other sources for comparison.

What I do know is that the RS4 could jump most supercars from a standing start.

Skidpad numbers (lateral G's) along with slalom numbers (transitional handling) are 2 of the major factors why I insist that the Viper is a fantasic handling car, that doesnt simply get bested by anything short of a race car, or street mimicing race car.

Anyways, L4S, like I said, it very well may have peaked at that number, but no street car that I've ever seen tested in any magazine (C&D, R&T, MT, Automobile, SCC) has ever recorded over 1.10, and that's in supercar territory, something the RS4 is short of, as it's a super-tourer.
But again, those are sustained numbers.

 

[Elegy]

While I agree that the Viper's handling is underrated (particularly the current generation), skidpads and slalom stats actually aren't very telling of handling ability.

A skidpad just tells you how hard the thing can whip itself around; it doesn't tell you how controllable the car is through a turn.

Slalom times actually favor oversteer, as a mildly oversteering car can get into a rhythm through the cones that helps its time.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Vipers don't oversteer.
and oversteering cars go faster.
and no, those test don't say how hard it is to control, that was never my point, the point is what the car can do, not the driver.
it's a shame RS4's (and all 4WD's) handle like crap in GT4...
neat cars.

EDIT: by the way, since I never said before, great list L4S

 

[Poverty]

Do you have a source I can check for that one, ta.

But making a faster, stickier GT3 was the easy aspect of the 997 variant. Translating a 6sec-faster Nurburgring lap time over version-996 (using the softer suspension-setting to score roughly 7min 43sec, should you want to replicate it) into a comfortable usable road car required some level of alchemy. Hard-liners will grizzle, but the GT3 can now be had with sat-nav, a telephone, and heated sports seats. Even loaded with comfort gear, it weights 15kg less than before. The damping, with the softer mapping, takes all the sharp edges away and even though there's more head-toss than in any regular 997, this is a usable everyday car. That could pitch at an endurance race and beat most everything in the paddock.

http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/feature.jsp?id=988&page=4


997 GT3 pulls 1.4 lateral G's

Somehow, they've managed to make it comfortable on the road, but optimised the suspension geometry and reduced the locking action of the limited slip differential (back from 40 percent to 28 percent under power) to allow it to pull something over 1.4g lateral acceleration. This puppy sticks. Predictably, for a GT3, once you get to a good, smokey slip-angle, the car has more inherent balance than a spider that just won the world arachnid trapeze championships.

 

[Dave A]

👍 cheers.

 

[Onikaze]

Pulling 1.4 G's isn't the same as doing 1.4 G's on a Skidpad though, that's why Skidpad tests are used, as it's a great display of the limits of the cars suspension/weight balance.

Yeah it doesn't translate to real world driving as well, because you can always push harder into a corner than you can while driving around a skidpad.

Nonetheless, it shows how well cars hang onto the road during, key word here, sustained high G turning.

 

[YSSMAN]

^Certainly!

When you watch the tests of cars that have g-meeters built in, they often can pull well over 1.0g in a left or right hand turn, but to keep a sustained figure anywhere close to 1.0g is amazing, in any car. To my knowlege, the two highest sustained figures over 1.0g for Car and Driver have been the Ferrari Enzo, Mosler MT900S, Saleen S7, Corvette Z06, and Dodge Viper SRT-10 (Convertable and Coupe).

 

[Wolfe]

Vipers don't oversteer.

Wait, since when did they start installing hamsters instead of powerful V10's? Or are the rear tires made of God?

and oversteering cars go faster.

I sincerely hope you're only referring to the slalom tests that were discussed earlier.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Wait, since when did they start installing hamsters instead of powerful V10's? Or are the rear tires made of God?

Read a review.
very neutral, with slight tendancy's to understeer. we're not drifting, we're racing
o, and the rear tires are made of 345 mm's, that what

I sincerely hope you're only referring to the slalom tests that were discussed earlier.

I sincerely hope you don't think understeer is faster.
Name the car that's perfectly neutral, under braking, acceleration, and lift throttle, and partial throttle. what's it's supension made of, God?

 

[Wolfe]

Read a review.
very neutral, with slight tendancy's to understeer. we're not drifting, we're racing
o, and the rear tires are made of 345 mm's, that what

I have read reviews, and I watched a cranky Brit drive one, too. The engine is much, much more than enough to light up the rear tires, and the car's handling characteristics can best be described as such: massive grip, massive grip, massive grip, massive grip, massive grip, OH NO WE'RE SPINNING OUT!!!!

The Viper has always been a notoriously touchy car at the limit (but oh, what a limit!), and even though automotive journalists have been surprised to find that the the latest Viper is somewhat friendlier (the C6 Z06 is actually worse), it's still a car that will bite your head off if you aren't careful.

I sincerely hope you don't think understeer is faster.
Name the car that's perfectly neutral, under braking, acceleration, and lift throttle, and partial throttle. what's it's supension made of, God?

A slight angle of oversteer used to be the fastest way around a corner....back when they used bias-ply tires. On radials, grip is almost always the best way to go, unless conditions make it so that driving slow enough to maintain grip is slower than just sliding through like a madman. Most of the time, this only applies to snow, ice, dirt, mud, etc., but it can also apply to tricky corners, or slalom cones, as Elegy said.

 

[Dave A]

Wolf is right, oversteer is not the fastest way around a corner on a grippy surface.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

well, call it what you may, the fastest road cars typically oversteer a slight amount.
and just because a car oversteers, doesnt mean you have to slide, does it? you're talking like it must, but I believe it's possible to not slide, no matter the car.
besides, Viper's have a very mild understeer, unless you spin the tires, so if your racing one, as long as you don't mess up, I don't believe that back end's going anywhere.

 

[Dave A]

The oversteer isn't why they are the fastest though, the oversteer is a by product of rwd and power being applied faster than the tyres can cope, but your right, you don't have to slide a car just because you can. But some cars oversteer a bit too easilly, Vipers understeer the same as most road cars unless you put too much power down , it's a question of at what point is too much power acheived and how well does the car communicate to you that your approaching "too much", this is where the Viper gets criticised, because you just don't know most of the time. It's something that most older TVR's have been criticised for too, incredibly quick but one mistake and it's gone. It doesn't make the Viper a worse car, just less practical and more for experienced drivers than the everyday rich kid (who'll probably own one anyway), like an older TVR.

 

[Wolfe]

well, call it what you may, the fastest road cars typically oversteer a slight amount.
and just because a car oversteers, doesnt mean you have to slide, does it? you're talking like it must, but I believe it's possible to not slide, no matter the car.
besides, Viper's have a very mild understeer, unless you spin the tires, so if your racing one, as long as you don't mess up, I don't believe that back end's going anywhere.

It sounds like you're saying that a car with a handling balance that is shifted slightly towards a tendency to oversteer is faster, which is a bit different from the statement that "oversteering cars go faster." It's also not necessarily true, because there are other factors, as live4speed said, including where the limits of the car are, and how well it communicates those limits.