North Korea, Sanctions, and Kim Jong-un

So they are saying. "Let us get off scot-free and we will 'possibly' enter talks."
 
Basically. With no guarantees or even assurances that they won't just go and break their word again, which is partly why they have the sanctions in the first place.
 
Pretty much.

If it were any other nation, it would probably be taken seriously, as a kind of "lets put everything that has happened behind us and start fresh", but since it's North Korea, the first thing that comes to mind is the Kim Jong-Cartman meme.
 
So is the current "crisis" to peter out with nary a shot fired? Perhaps it's an internal matter after all, or that the world's major powers simply have more important crises to deal with elsewhere - a fat little boy's anger being no fit concern of serious men?

Respectfully,
Steve
 
Pretty much.

If it were any other nation, it would probably be taken seriously, as a kind of "lets put everything that has happened behind us and start fresh", but since it's North Korea, the first thing that comes to mind is the Kim Jong-Cartman meme.

"Ay! Barack! Respect mah a-thor-i-tah!"
 
or that the world's major powers simply have more important crises to deal with elsewhere - a fat little boy's anger being no fit concern of serious men?
Your obvious contempt for Kim Jong-un is noted. However, to be so dismissive of him would simply serve aggravate him further. Based on the demands that the North issued, they clearly want to be recognised as a nuclear state, if not a nuclear power. It's an issue that the world cannot afford to ignore, least of all because ignoring it would only prompt the North to try and force the world to take them seriously.
 
The man has nuclear weapons. However functional they are, intentionally aggravating him is about the stupidest thing anyone could do.
 
So? Let him get aggravated. It's not like anybody takes him seriously or anything.

Whoah that's ignorant of you. Reminds of Chamberlain, "That Hitlers a lovely bloke".

Megalomaniac's aren't born with an arrow on their head saying Megalomaniac. Who knows what he is capable of. I'm pretty sure the US takes him as a serious concern.
 
The man has nuclear weapons. However functional they are, intentionally aggravating him is about the stupidest thing anyone could do.

Why, oh why do you insist on sticking words in peoples' mouths? Where did I say anything about intentionally aggravating anyone? Oh that's right, I didn't. I'm simply saying that we should just do whatever we'd normally do and not worry about the fact that he might take offense where none was meant.
 
You said "lets get him aggravated". How did you intend for that to mean unintentionally aggravating him? You said "lets do it", which means you know what you are doing and what the result will be.
 
Actually this is the quote. There's a difference.

Was about to say this, minor difference, but still a difference. I agree with prisonermonkeys though, getting someone with such powers upset, intentionally or not, leads to a high risk of many people suffering from his decisions.

If you see him as such a little boy then I don't get how you don't see the danger he potentially is. If you upset such an aggressive little boy he will hit you before thinking about consequences. This situation is a bit similar, albeit we speak in a completely different scale.
 
Honestly, I would not want to see another unnecessary war raging in the east, but I was hoping the major powers would be able to find a way to put the man down and end his junior regime. But I guess it's impossible to disassemble the whole military structure the "goverment" has been forged in.

Still, if peace can be made regardless of how far things did come, then let there be it, there would be no better possible outcome of the crisis.
 
You said "lets get him aggravated". How did you intend for that to mean unintentionally aggravating him? You said "lets do it", which means you know what you are doing and what the result will be.

I said no such thing. What I actually said was:

So? Let him get aggravated. It's not like anybody takes him seriously or anything.

That's a four word sentence. You changed the first word and inverted the order of two more. Four words and you get three of them, 75% of them, wrong.

I don't believe I ever said anything even close to "Let's do it", not in this thread, and you somehow attribute that statement to me as well.
:rolleyes:


What I was actually saying was that we should go about our legitimate business including military exercises with Japan and/or South Korea and not let concerns about whether or not he'll get aggravated about it affect our decisions.
 
Traces of radiation - possibly from the North's test earlier this year - have been detected. Going by this, it might be possible to work out what the North have been testing with, and if they've upgraded to uranium, it's bad news:

http://news.yahoo.com/gases-consistent-north-koreas-february-test-found-nuclear-092211467.html

The North wants to be recognised as a nuclear state; predictably, America has said it's not going to happen. They've also said that the North's habit of making threats to get aid every few months must come to an end:

http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-demands-recognition-nuclear-arms-state-043513000.html

And America has issued a report condemning the North for human rights abuses. Naturally, the North condemnds the condemnation, and pledges to buil more bombs:

http://news.yahoo.com/nkorea-vows-bolster-nuclear-arms-over-us-report-095449377.html
 
Was about to say this, minor difference, but still a difference. I agree with prisonermonkeys though, getting someone with such powers upset, intentionally or not, leads to a high risk of many people suffering from his decisions.

If you see him as such a little boy then I don't get how you don't see the danger he potentially is. If you upset such an aggressive little boy he will hit you before thinking about consequences. This situation is a bit similar, albeit we speak in a completely different scale.

Spoiled rotten little boys don't like to get punched in the face and that's what this one needs. How about we worry less about the potential dangers of a spoiled rotten adult child and more about what's the right thing to do.

Honestly, I would not want to see another unnecessary war raging in the east, but I was hoping the major powers would be able to find a way to put the man down and end his junior regime. But I guess it's impossible to disassemble the whole military structure the "goverment" has been forged in.

Still, if peace can be made regardless of how far things did come, then let there be it, there would be no better possible outcome of the crisis.

Would you be happy with peace if the NK's begin stockpiling nukes? Begin developing long range ICBMS's and testing them out over the open ocean? Peace doesn't always just happen, sometimes it has to be made to happen.
 
Peace doesn't always just happen, sometimes it has to be made to happen.

Well said, and so historically true. Peace very often begins by making a devastation, then calling it peace. Peace very often begins by first filling the rivers and the fields with blood. Peace in the British Isles was often achieved by the King exterminating, root and branch, the families of rebellious lords.

Lets face it, man is not the worlds most peaceable animal. Intelligent, cunning and cruel, we create kings, weapons and laws so that order is maintained and justice of a sort is served. We arrive at a position where might creates right and the ends justify the means, then perfume it with piety and platitude. Problems occur when the mighty rest on their haunches, having lost the bankroll and thirst for blood and sacrifice that saw them to power in the first place.

Iran, Syria and North Korea remain defiant to our windy words and paper sanctions, and now a harsh lesson must be taught. But by whom? The only folk with the righteous cause of democracy and a mighty nuclear sword are standing alternately behind the skirts of a socialist UN and the apartheid religious state of Israel.

It is clear that the world will have democracy, whether it wants it or not and regardless of what it does with it afterward. We want peace, but only our terms. If our enemies shall not bend the knee, let us make a devastation and call it peace, God save the Queen.

Respectfully but rhetorically submitted,
Steve
 
Last edited:
Well said, and so historically true. Peace very often begins by making a devastation, then calling it peace. Peace very often begins by first filling the rivers and the fields with blood. Peace in the British Isles was often achieved by the King exterminating, root and branch, the families of rebellious lords.

Lets face it, man is not the worlds most peaceable animal. Intelligent, cunning and cruel, we create kings, weapons and laws so that order is maintained and justice of a sort is served. We arrive at a position where might creates right and the ends justify the means, and paper it over with piety and platitude. The problems occurs when the mighty rest on their haunches, having lost the bankroll and thirst for blood and sacrifice that saw them to power in the first place.

Iran, Syria and North Korea remain defiant to our windy words and paper sanctions, and now a harsh lesson must be taught. But by whom? The only folk with the righteous cause of democracy and a mighty nuclear sword are standing alternately behind the skirts of a socialist UN and the apartheid religious state of Israel.

It is clear that the world will have democracy, whether it wants it or not and regardless of what it does with it afterward. We want peace, but only only our terms. If our enemies shall not bend the knee, let us make a devastation, and call it peace, God save the Queen.

Respectfully but rhetorically submitted,
Steve

When some kid across the street starts yelling at you saying, "I'm going to punch you in the face because I hate your guts", it's usually smart to not turn your back on him and to keep your eyes and ears open. When he starts yelling, "I'm going to hit you with a baseball bat when you aren't looking", it's usually time to take action and get in the first punch to hopefully discourage him. Meeting him at the corner store and discussing why he hates you can sometimes work, but it can also turn out that he just pretends he doesn't hate you anymore to lull you into a false sense of security so he can still hit you with that bat.

If I lived in Israel, I wouldn't want to get hit with a nuclear bat, from a spoiled little dictator that is on the verge of having a nuclear bat. We're not talking about colonialism or what happened in 1705, we're talking about current day, total obliteration of entire cities or in Israel's case, the entire country. If I lived in South Korea, I don't want to take the chance that the fat little dictator is bluffing. How do you negotiate with someone who a couple of weeks before said, "I'm going to drop a nuke on you" ??
 
Would you be happy with peace if the NK's begin stockpiling nukes? Begin developing long range ICBMS's and testing them out over the open ocean? Peace doesn't always just happen, sometimes it has to be made to happen.

That depends on your concept of peace. Peace to me is a state of no actual military action between two entities, it is a state on which no civilians or even military personnel are physically harmed. I said it was the best possible outcome given the current situation, not that it was the solution to the NK threat.

Nobody wants to stay close to a gun-wielding monkey.
 
The sooner Japan makes giant robots to kick Kim Jong-un's arse, the better.
 
What are your guys' thoughts on Kim Jong Un actually being a puppet under someone else's control?

Some people think his Aunt, a NK four-star General, is the real power dictating things, along with maybe the uncle.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/8599855/The-power-couple-behind-Kim-Jong-Un

An interesting article, thanks for posting it.

Trouble is, North Korea is notoriously opaque, difficult to penetrate and to understand, and much of the scuttlebutt in the article comes from defectors, who may have an axe to grind. That said, the article is still informative and helpful in understanding some of complexities.

Many sources over the decades point to underlying conflicts and tensions between long standing factions in the army and in the KWP (Korean Workers Party). These are probably behind recent stories of running gunbattles on the streets of Pyongyang and rumors of coups d'etat. Kim Jong Un is certainly a player in all this, perhaps even a secondary player, although it would likely be unwise to say he is a puppet.

Of Kyong Hui, Kim Il Sung's daughter, the article says in part,
"Kyong Hui's mother died in her 30s in 1948. With Kim Il Sung soon plotting the 1950 Korean War and later remarriage, Kyong Hui and her brother Jong Il were left to form close bonds, according to Hwang Jang Yop, a former Workers' Party secretary and the most senior North Korean to defect.

Hwang was an ideologue who helped Kim Il Sung formulate the country's Juche philosophy that fuses Marxism, extreme nationalism and a call for self sufficiency."


The quote refers to "Juche philosophy", but this is better understood as the state religion in the officially atheist state of North Korea. Kim Il Sung himself is often attributed to be the author of this state religion. GTP readers may like to see a breakdown of religious beliefs in North Korea.

-----------------------from Wikipedia----------------------------

Traditionally religion in North Korea primarily consisted of Buddhism and Confucianism and Korean shamanism. Since the arrival of Europeans in the 18th century, there is a Christian minority. New religions have arisen during the last century, the most prominent one being Cheondoism, based on traditional shamanism. North Korea is officially an atheist state in which much of the population is nonreligious.[2][3] North Korea sees organised religious activity as a potential challenge to the leadership.[4]

According to Religious Intelligence UK the situation of religion in North Korea is the following:[5]

Irreligion: 15,460,000 (64.3% of population, the vast majority of which are adherents of the Juche philosophy)

Korean Shamanism: 3,846,000 adherents (16% of population)

Cheondoism: 3,245,000 adherents (13.5% of population)
Cheondoism, or spelled Chondoism in North Korean sources[1] (Korean Cheondogyo; hanja 天道教; hangul 천도교; literally "Religion of the Heavenly Way"), is a 20th-century Korean religious movement, based on the 19th century Donghak Confucian movement founded by Choe Je-u and codified under Son Byeong-hui.[2] Cheondoism has its origins in the peasant rebellions which arose starting in 1812 during the Joseon Dynasty. Cheondoism is essentially Confucian in origin, but incorporates elements of Korean nationalism, Taoism and Buddhism. It places emphasis on personal cultivation, this-worldly social welfare, and rejects any notion of an afterlife.

Buddhism: 1,082,000 adherents (4.5% of population)
Christianity: 406,000 adherents (1.7% of population)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea

Korean shamanism, today known as Muism (Mugyo, "religion of the Mu")[1][2] or sometimes Sinism (Shingyo, "religion of the gods", with shin being the Korean character derivative of the Hanja),[3] encompasses a variety of indigenous religious beliefs and practices of the Korean people and the Korean sphere.[4] In contemporary South Korea, the most used term is Muism and a shaman is known as a mudang (무당, 巫堂) or Tangol (당골). The role of the mudang, usually a woman, is to act as intermediary between a spirit entity, spirits or gods and human beings.

Korean shamanism is distinguished by seeking to resolve human problems through a meeting of humanity and the spirits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Shamanism

Respectfully,
Steve
 
Last edited:
I think they'll use him as ransom more so than outright offing him.

Didn't the Koreans do this before with others?

Nah I think they will make a huge show about how guilty he is and then make a huge show about executing him. It will justify the leadership saying how America are the enemy.

Unless America threaten force over the issue.
 
Back