Nurburgring Nordschleife, in which game it is more realistic?

[another_jakhole]

no comment..
gt5!!

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Day1 Suzuki Swift



Day2 BMW 325i SMG

Sean Johnston? That was a great interview. I remember him from the first GT Academy in the US.

And what means that the same Academy guys doing great at the game with realistic setups, are doing good and knowledgeable at the real tests previous all the program of professional training? why they perform as good with little or no experience as more experienced drivers? are all the tests in the GT Academy faked or they have learned basic car control and fast track driving throught the game? no at the same level of course but enought to adapt and learn faster than someone with no game and no real track experience.

A different Academy with racing soft tyres, SRF, driving AIDs and gamepads will select the same type of players? they will perform as good as they are doing now with sim players? it's obvious, same as mario kart best players will do very bad in a GT Academy.

This vid is also interesting, "massive holes" apart seems that GT5 do what matter at a great level.

You mean aside from the steering angle, counter steer, point of apex, etc being different on nearly every corner?

This is all however a discussion for another thread, one I have already provided a link to.

That video was from before Spec 2 came out. I'm not entirely sure, but wasn't the first true physics update from Spec 2? It's changed at least 5 times since then, almost never telling us in the updates that there have been tweaks to the driving/physics model.

Isn't this about track accuracy though? Zer0 was pointing out the tracks and you keep bringing up how GT5 doesn't translate to the real world (even though it does). Oh yeah, obviously it isn't a complete substitute in learning how to race (which is part of your argument too).

 

[Mac K]

Who cares.. Almost three years on and the petty arguing still continues.

 

[another_jakhole]

Well, the people who wanted to take part in this thread care. Can't just dismiss it ALL by saying you don't care. This thread wouldn't have gone passed the first reply if no one cared.

Edit -
It's clear as day that this thread went a different direction when Scaff gave his two cents that wasn't sticking entirely to the reason for the OP making this thread.

And it's clear that Scaff doesn't like it when people think GT5 is awesome. /s but not really

 

[Speed XII]

In GT5 you'll find the most realistic representation of Nurburgring of all sims and driving games.
No sim has done it better and it is the sole reason I continued playing GT5, without the Ring I'd have stopped more than a year ago.

Also, a funny statement from someone who is forum staff.

 

[another_jakhole]

In GT5 you'll find the most realistic representation of Nurburgring of all sims and driving games.
No sim has done it better and it is the sole reason I continued playing GT5, without the Ring I'd have stopped more than a year ago.

I was going to point that our earlier to SimonK, but didn't want to pull a Scaff.

I was merely going to point out that I bet more people would be getting FM4 if its Nordschleife wasn't like it still is, considering that there are some people who own GT5 and only drive on GT5's Nordschleife.

 

[Scaff]

Isn't this about track accuracy though? Zer0 was pointing out the tracks and you keep bringing up how GT5 doesn't translate to the real world (even though it does). Oh yeah, obviously it isn't a complete substitute in learning how to race (which is part of your argument too).

No. Zero's reply was in regard to physics (which he brought up initially), and I have now twice attempted to refer that side of the discussion to the correct thread, even providing a link doing so.

I didn't bring up physics or the GTA (please check and you will clearly see that is the case) and in both cases I attempted to move the discussion to the correct thread, as such these comments.....


"you keep bringing up how GT5 doesn't translate to the real world "

"And it's clear that Scaff doesn't like it when people think GT5 is awesome. /s but not really"

"I was going to point that our earlier to SimonK, but didn't want to pull a Scaff. "


...is not even close to an accurate representation of my posts or actions.

You may want to watch that attitude as what I brought up in this thread was that the GT5 version of the 'ring is one of the most accurate and that the FM4 one certainly isn't, also that no version is good enough to use it to 'know' the track.

 

[Mac K]

Well, the people who wanted to take part in this thread care. Can't just dismiss it ALL by saying you don't care. This thread wouldn't have gone passed the first reply if no one cared.

Edit -
It's clear as day that this thread went a different direction when Scaff gave his two cents that wasn't sticking entirely to the reason for the OP making this thread.

And it's clear that Scaff doesn't like it when people think GT5 is awesome. /s but not really

Thats more of what I was getting at, a harmless thread once again turned into world war 3.

 

[Speed XII]

I was going to point that our earlier to SimonK, but didn't want to pull a Scaff.

I was merely going to point out that I bet more people would be getting FM4 if its Nordschleife wasn't like it still is, considering that there are some people who own GT5 and only drive on GT5's Nordschleife.

I find all tracks dull, safety has ruined tracks in my honest opinion.
Hence all GT5 I do now (not all but 90%) is Nordschleife, and I'm pretty fast at it.
Here is me driving Yamauchi's GT-R from last year:

Sorry for bad quality.

But what amazes me is how the cars react on the track, especially at Ex-muhle, Flugplatz, Fuchrohre, Wehrsefen and a few more, I found myself having to do the exact same steering corrections/inputs as real life drivers do. Clearly a proof that PD has done a phenomenal job with that track.

 

[Raitziger]

You may want to watch that attitude as what I brought up in this thread was that the GT5 version of the 'ring is one of the most accurate and that the FM4 one certainly isn't, also that no version is good enough to use it to 'know' the track.

Tommi Mäkinen practiced the track in GT5 before going to do 4 door car track record on the ring. He said that it was enough for him to go for full time attack on the course but of course he is four time WRC champion

btw: Actually Tommi's driving on the video looks very rough because he did not heel&toe once. He braked into the corner once with 5th and kicked 2nd and luckily the engine did not blow up. Rally drivers usually do not do the heel&toe, I have seen this many times before.

Edit:" It appears that I got it totally wrong (bad memory sorry, funny part is on bold )
"when we asked how much time Mäkinen had on the track before the record run, one of the Subaru guys laughed. “We asked him to learn the circuit on PlayStation, but he never did it.” The Finn’s response: “I wanted to, but it was the Japanese version.” A certain Herr Schmidt, a German member of the STI development team who is very familiar with the ‘Ring, took Mäkinen out the first time he was at the track and showed him around. He told me that a normal person needs about 50 laps to improve their time. Mäkinen did so in maybe five. “He ran unbelievably quickly.”

Mäkinen says that, as a rally driver, he’s developed good “road memory” and didn’t need to run the track too many times. He said he viewed it like any rally stage, except without any pace notes, and shrugged it off by saying the hardest part for him was adjusting to the car’s right-hand-drive setup."

 

[Flaco13]

Tommi Mäkinen practiced the track in GT5 before going to do 4 door car track record on the ring. He said that it was enough for him to go for full time attack on the course but of course he is four time WRC champion

btw: Actually Tommi's driving on the video looks very rough because he did not heel&toe once. He braked into the corner once with 5th and kicked 2nd and luckily the engine did not blow up. Rally drivers usually do not do the heel&toe, I have seen this many times before.

I doubt he stood up from his rig jumped right into the STi and ran this 7:55 lap tho, he and the Team involved are professionals.

 

[Raitziger]

I doubt he stood up from his rig jumped right into the STi and ran this 7:55 lap tho, he and the Team involved are professionals.

Yes of course not Also car was not entirely stock as many have suspected.

 

[Flaco13]

Yes of course not Also car was not entirely stock as many have suspected.

Yes, but also I can't quite understand why he makes such a statement, it sounded like "just play GT5 then you'll be fast on the real Ring".

I hope he clarified it through further explanation. I would guess he did.

 

[Raitziger]

Yes, but also I can't quite understand why he makes such a statement, it sounded like "just play GT5 then you'll be fast on the real Ring".

I hope he clarified it through further explanation. I would guess he did.

He said that was all practice there was as he had not driven on the ring before. I can not remember the actual world's any more. It is no different than F1 drivers learning tracks with F1 games before going out for the first time.

Edit: It appears that I got it totally wrong (bad memory sorry, funny part is on bold )
"when we asked how much time Mäkinen had on the track before the record run, one of the Subaru guys laughed. “We asked him to learn the circuit on PlayStation, but he never did it.” The Finn’s response: “I wanted to, but it was the Japanese version.” A certain Herr Schmidt, a German member of the STI development team who is very familiar with the ‘Ring, took Mäkinen out the first time he was at the track and showed him around. He told me that a normal person needs about 50 laps to improve their time. Mäkinen did so in maybe five. “He ran unbelievably quickly.”

Mäkinen says that, as a rally driver, he’s developed good “road memory” and didn’t need to run the track too many times. He said he viewed it like any rally stage, except without any pace notes, and shrugged it off by saying the hardest part for him was adjusting to the car’s right-hand-drive setup."

 

[Flaco13]

He said that was all practice there was as he had not driven on the ring before. I can not remember the actual world's any more. It is no different than F1 drivers learning tracks with F1 games before going out for the first time.

Sure, but it is also clear that this is just a small part of the preparation before a professional driver actually gets to drive the way shown in the video. Especially Rally Drivers are studying a track very detailed, walk or ride the entire track on a mountain bike etc. etc.

When hot lapping with the eventual goal to set a possible record he certainly ran couple of laps at a rather slower pace, note that a turbo powered car needs warming up while, on a 21km track they need to watch tire wear, among other things like humidity, temperature etc.

Exactly those things that guys at track days forget to worry about, yet want to perform like a 'pro'. This is when things start to get dangerous.

Edit: Thank you for clearing it up!

 

[another_jakhole]

Raitziger - you should edit your first post about that


2010 - before GT5 released
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1009_gran_turismo_5/viewall.html

Driving a virtual near race-spec Lexus IS F in a just-completed GT5 version of the Nurburgring's full 24-hour race course (a world-first and highlight of the new game), which links the legendary Nordschleife (north loop) to the F1 GP track, Yamauchi did two qualifying laps. One, at 100 percent "game" speed, pushed the IS F to its limits and beyond on some corners. His time? Try 9 minutes 38 seconds.
"In the game," explains Yamauchi, "you have the luxury of being able to push the car to 100 percent, and not worry about going off. But in the real world, you must tone that down to somewhere around 95 percent, so that you retain a small margin for error. You must remember that you are racing against REAL cars at speeds topping 150mph with REAL hazards and REAL guard rails." So on his second GT5 qualifying lap, he drove as if he was qualifying for the real world, and posted a time of 9 minutes 48 seconds.

During the actual Nurburgring 24-hour race on the following day, behind the wheel of the World Car Awards' Lexus IS F race car, Yamauchi posted a fastest lap time of... you guessed it: 9 minutes 48 seconds, an unbelievable feat that had us all doing a double-take. His performance shows GT5 is as close to real world racing as you can get, without actually jumping into a real race car.

2010 - first 24 hour race, second time racing at the Ring
https://www.gtplanet.net/onboard-with-yamauchi-at-the-nurburgring-24h-race/

Despite some mechanical troubles, they finished fourth in their class, with Yamauchi himself setting the team’s second-fastest lap at 9:48.

In the first of two night stints, ex-Indycar pilot Matsuda posted a 9 minute 58 second lap time, the team’s best night lap time. Just after Mildenhall handed over to Lyon for the mid-morning stint, severe vibrations from a split front spoiler forced the team to pit once again and repair the damage. Running at 5th in class, Yamauchi took the wheel and posted his fastest time of the race, a 9.48. That was just after Matsuda had recorded the team’s fastest lap of 9.46.

This is in spite of Kaz not being a "real" race car driver as some people like to say after his last three Nurburgring 24 Hour races. He did do a 4 Hour Nurburgring race before all three, though, in 2009. To be clear, I'm not praising him as TEH BEST IN TEH WORRRRLD!

 

[C6.R]

I think GT is the most accurate.
Forza and SHIFT2 are to wide and I think the overall layout with heigth transitions in SHIFT2 isn't very good either.

So yes,GT is in my opinion the best

 

[NSXDriver]

GT5 definitely takes the edge, Forza is too wide. Plus for the Nordschleife they put the starting line halfway down that last straight, instead of where it's supposed to be at the intersection between Nord and the GP circuit.

correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure civilians still enter the track in the middle of the straight, that's why you'll hear about test runs starting from the straight not necessarily from the pits in GT5 version.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

Raitziger - you should edit your first post about that


2010 - before GT5 released
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1009_gran_turismo_5/viewall.html




2010 - first 24 hour race, second time racing at the Ring
https://www.gtplanet.net/onboard-with-yamauchi-at-the-nurburgring-24h-race/


This is in spite of Kaz not being a "real" race car driver as some people like to say after his last three Nurburgring 24 Hour races. He did do a 4 Hour Nurburgring race before all three, though, in 2009. To be clear, I'm not praising him as TEH BEST IN TEH WORRRRLD!

Great post. You win.
Being able to run that close of a time in real and on the game speaks volumes.👍

 

[TokoTurismo]

I was going to point that our earlier to SimonK, but didn't want to pull a Scaff.

I was merely going to point out that I bet more people would be getting FM4 if its Nordschleife wasn't like it still is, considering that there are some people who own GT5 and only drive on GT5's Nordschleife.

Whenever I play GT5, and even online. I always go to race and free run on the Nurburgring, because its accurate. In FM4 I NEVER go on the Nurburgring because like I said before. Its "Too wide and Too long", thus it isn't accurate and challenging enough IMO! O_O

So yeah, I HIGHLY choose GT5's Nurburg.

 

[Flaco13]

correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure civilians still enter the track in the middle of the straight, that's why you'll hear about test runs starting from the straight not necessarily from the pits in GT5 version.

On a test run it really wouldn't matter where you start, the problem is online races. A start/finish line on a straight like Döttinger Höhe could create some funny slip stream corsos in Z Z shapes. Not exactly what it is supose to.

That said it is up to the developers where they put it. There are no races taking place on the Nordschleife in real world, only on the complete track = GP Circuit+Nordschleife

 

[Samus]

Great post. You win.
Being able to run that close of a time in real and on the game speaks volumes.👍

It says very little actually. We've already been over hundreds of times how comparing real world times to game times is utterly pointless.

 

[another_jakhole]

^^^ It really isn't totally pointless when you look at comparisons of tracks. You can see that the gear changes in the same car are usually done at the same point, when you know the virtual track is "nearly perfect", and some other elements that I wouldn't know about. Braking points being another. You can't say that it doesn't count when there's so much to think about. If FM's version gave us identical lap times like in the article, it would be too easy to say that it's just not right, unlike GT's version where you have to think about it.

On a test run it really wouldn't matter where you start, the problem is online races. A start/finish line on a straight like Döttinger Höhe could create some funny slip stream corsos in Z Z shapes. Not exactly what it is supose to.

That said it is up to the developers where they put it. There are no races taking place on the Nordschleife in real world, only on the complete track = GP Circuit+Nordschleife

BUT aren't manufacturer's fastest lap times (like say with the GT-R, its previously fastest lap of 7:21) only done on the Nordscheife and not including the GP layout(s)?

 

[Flaco13]

^^^ It really isn't totally pointless when you look at comparisons of tracks. You can see that the gear changes in the same car are usually done at the same point, when you know the virtual track is "nearly perfect", and some other elements that I wouldn't know about. Braking points being another. You can't say that it doesn't count when there's so much to think about.


BUT aren't manufacturer's fastest lap times (like say with the GT-R, its previously fastest lap of 7:21) only done on the Nordscheife and not including the GP layout(s)?

That is correct, however it wouldn't make any difference if you start at the mids of the straight or at T13, you could set the start/finish anywhere it wouldn't affect your lap time would it? And such a test run is a TT not a race, and there is no traffic. when manufacturers test cars they rent the whole Nordschleife.

 

[another_jakhole]

That is correct, however it wouldn't make any difference if you start at the mids of the straight or at T13, you could set the start/finish anywhere it wouldn't affect your lap time would it?

I think it would depend if it's a "rolling start" at GT5's starting line or a "standing start"/grid. Manufacturers do a rolling start, don't they?

Might not make sense, this/my post, so hopefully someone who can think more lucidly can give their input.

 

[Flaco13]

I think it would depend if it's a "rolling start" at GT5's starting line or a "standing start"/grid. Manufacturers do a rolling start, don't they?

Might not make sense, this/my post, so hopefully someone who can think more lucidly can give their input.

only if you limit the test drivers to 1 lap! on a 2nd lap its not an issue anymore!

 

[challengerrt10]

Whenever I play GT5, and even online. I always go to race and free run on the Nurburgring, because its accurate. In FM4 I NEVER go on the Nurburgring because like I said before. Its "Too wide and Too long", thus it isn't accurate and challenging enough IMO! O_O

So yeah, I HIGHLY choose GT5's Nurburg.

Thank you all for the feedback.

So it looks that the GT5 representation of Nordschleife is the most accurate among present generation of console games.

By the way I have to admit that I neglected this track for almost 1,5 year while playing GT5. Now I'm taking a lot of fun in driving on this track with stock cars below 550 PP (especially Corvette Grand Sport, I've fallen in love with this car and I seriously decided to buy that car until I found it cost around 30 000 $, so I have to go for Fiat Coupe

Nevertheless I like this track when I play Forza 4 because of two reasons. I can drive there cars which aren't available in GT5 or are only standards in GT5.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

It says very little actually. We've already been over hundreds of times how comparing real world times to game times is utterly pointless.

You're totally right....

 

[Speed XII]

So it looks that the GT5 representation of Nordschleife is the most accurate among present generation of console games.

Not just console games, out of all games, GT5 has the best Nurburgring.
rFactor has some good versions but all of those are mods, therefore made by a 3rd party and not the actual game designers, pCARS has the Nordschleife but my guess is that pCARS will be a failure, so is everything from SMS.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Tommi Mäkinen practiced the track in GT5 before going to do 4 door car track record on the ring. He said that it was enough for him to go for full time attack on the course but of course he is four time WRC champion

btw: Actually Tommi's driving on the video looks very rough because he did not heel&toe once. He braked into the corner once with 5th and kicked 2nd and luckily the engine did not blow up. Rally drivers usually do not do the heel&toe, I have seen this many times before.

See, this is sort of interesting to me; the only people that I've heard claim GT (or any game, for that matter) translates to a legitimate real world aid are either a) heavily invested in the brand (GT Academy drivers, Kaz), or already very accomplished motorsport drivers (so it's safe to assume they have a fair bit of real-world experience they can use anyways).

Seeing your edit later, my point still seems valid, though; Tommi's a rally driver (a Finn no less), and even if he did take a few laps around a game before heading to the track, it's impossible to say how much the game may have helped, or how much of his innate talent lead to a quick time.

You're totally right....

He is. The list of reasons as to why the lap time comparisons are silly is quite literally too long for me to list.

As for people veering dangerously close to turning this into a discussion about FM4 vs GT5 in general, or about physics, I'll echo Scaff's comments; we have threads for those, take it there. Leave this to be about specifically the Nurburgring's representation in those, and other, games.

For the record, I'll state the obvious; GT5's is the most accurate out of any sim-style game I've tried, at least going by all of the media I've devoured about the real version. The FM4 version is a source of endless frustration for me, because while the other real world tracks are fantastic, and the car lineup in that game is miles more my style, not being able to run them on an accurate representation of the Green Hell is such a downer. GT5's version is fantastic, especially with the other layouts and time/weather changes, but driving from the cardboard-cutout interior view of some of my favourites leaves just as sour taste in my mouth as the inaccurate track in FM4. Ugh, first world problems, indeed.

 

[Flaco13]

while the other real world tracks are fantastic

ehm, Hockenheim isn't as bad as Nürb GP or Nordschleife but it is far from accurate, it seems it either is only a problem on german circuits or there are even more inaccurate tracks I cannot judge them since I don't know them in real life, according to video's La Sarthe and Laguna Seca seem alright.

edit: sorry, it's for another thread, I know...