Nurburgring Nordschleife, in which game it is more realistic?

[montez34]

I was recently playing nfs shift on nurb and after playing it on gt5 for so long it didn't even seem like the same track, on shift the track is wider and a lot smoother, it also seems longer. GT5 seems far more realistic to me.

 

[Duman079]

GT5 has maken the lay out better than any other game imo, but I never get the ''race feeling '' with GT. Shift gives players a better experience on racing, with this I mean only the feeling of the car and dynamic interior view. GT over any other race game though.

 

[Samus]

Not just console games, out of all games, GT5 has the best Nurburgring.
rFactor has some good versions but all of those are mods, therefore made by a 3rd party and not the actual game designers, pCARS has the Nordschleife but my guess is that pCARS will be a failure, so is everything from SMS.

pCARS will not be a failure.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

For the record, I'll state the obvious; GT5's is the most accurate out of any sim-style game I've tried, at least going by all of the media I've devoured about the real version. The FM4 version is a source of endless frustration for me, because while the other real world tracks are fantastic, and the car lineup in that game is miles more my style, not being able to run them on an accurate representation of the Green Hell is such a downer. GT5's version is fantastic, especially with the other layouts and time/weather changes, but driving from the cardboard-cutout interior view of some of my favourites leaves just as sour taste in my mouth as the inaccurate track in FM4. Ugh, first world problems, indeed.

Funny how you tell people to not start an argument about GT5 vs FM4 and yet yourself can't hold to yourself useless comparisions for this topic. Such as car list and interior views.

I am sorry, but that was totally unecessary to make your point. To me, felt just like a comment made to... i don't really know. I've bolded the part that I consider enough to make your point.

 

[Zer0]

It says very little actually. We've already been over hundreds of times how comparing real world times to game times is utterly pointless.

He is. The list of reasons as to why the lap time comparisons are silly is quite literally too long for me to list.

It is if you for some reason don't want to give credit to GT5 and a matter of opinion not fact.

From the same higly acclaimed Jalopnik source:

Let me start this off with the exceptions, so no one gets caught in the crossfire unfairly: if you've built a rig in your home to play iRacing, SimRaceway, or any other high quality computer-based simulator the lap times are definitely important as that's the point. If you're doing GT Academy that's also the point.

http://jalopnik.com/5950978/

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

It doesn't actually say that GT5 is accurate. It says that if you are doing GT Academy, your lap times are important. Because it is a Time Trial competition.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Funny how you tell people to not start an argument about GT5 vs FM4 and yet yourself can't hold to yourself useless comparisions for this topic. Such as car list and interior views.

I am sorry, but that was totally unecessary to make your point. To me, felt just like a comment made to... i don't really know. I've bolded the part that I consider enough to make your point.

I'm not sure what your personal opinions on post contents have anything to do with. Tying other features to my reasoning for why I enjoy GT5's version is a way for me to explain my preference. Considering I have issues with both games (and indeed, nearly any game I play, because no game is perfect), the only person who seems to think those comments were meant to start an argument is, unsurprisingly, you.

And your post relates to the topic in what way, exactly? It'd be wise to worry about your own posting habits before attempting to call out others simply because you don't agree with their opinions.

It is if you for some reason don't want to give credit to GT5 and a matter of opinion not fact.

From the same higly acclaimed Jalopnik source:

http://jalopnik.com/5950978/

The context of "lap times" in that article relates to people competing over their lap times within the games themselves. Tying to that; the fastest leaderboard times back during the GT Academy standalone game were not the most realistic.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

Then it is a case of do what i say don't do what i do? I see, keep that way Slip.

 

[Foxiol]

I can talk with property here because I own almost every single racing game and simulator in the market. I am also part of some simulation sites (rFactor, iRacing, etc, focused sites) and we all discussed this too.

Gran Turismo 5 and totally hands down, has the most accurate Nürburgring Nordschleife version of the entire racing genre.

As someone said Race07 has a great version and it is the 2nd of my preference (after GT5 version) talking about the layout of course.

Sorry to not being agreed with "amar212" but pCARS version is not accurate at all. I did tons of laps in the Race07 version before GT4 and then the GT5 version and When I "moved" into the GT5 version I had no problems at all with the layout of it because in both is pretty accurate and the feeling (something hard to explain because you need to do as many laps as i did) is somehow the same. But in pCARS it feels weird, straights are not accurate and happens the same with curves and some parts of the tracks.
Also the width is not correct. (of course it is a pre-alpha version and it is way better than NFS Shift versions without a doubt, so it still can change for the better)

Other good version is the Nordschleife 2007 V2 for rFactor. (talking about layout)

GT5 is the most accurate because it uses GPS which is the closest thing that we can have to "Laser scan" (iRacing and upcoming Assetto Corsa method, which taking a look at the tracks it looks like GT5 "real tracks", and probably Assetto Corsa is going to have the most realistic Nürburgring Nordschleife version after release...but GT5 is going to be almost on par by millimeters because GPS is almost as accurate by 0,8cm)

Laser scanned tracks are accurate at 100% because it also notice the minimum detail, bumps, scratches, etc. But iRacing doesn´t have a Nürburgring 24hs version because it will be too much expensive and will take more than 6 months to make. (each track takes 6 months and 10 people doing every detail of it)
It does 3D mapping in real time.

GPS uses the GPS mounted in a car running at very low speed to catch every information of the track in real time and send the info to a computer that process that info to map the track in a 3D environment. And cameras on top of that car are taking pictures on 360 each meter to catch the details of the environment.
And also I believe that PD is using the "data log".

I read that both methods are accurate to make tracks. Laser scan is 100% accurate and GPS mapping has 0,2 to 0,8cm or error, or something similar. Can´t remember.

Which means that the GT5 version is the most accurate at the moment. And you can see it for yourself. The layout is amazing and the track itself almost photo-realistic. (blame the PS3 hardware for not being "perfect" yet)

 

[Zer0]

The context of "lap times" in that article relates to people competing over their lap times within the games themselves. Tying to that; the fastest leaderboard times back during the GT Academy standalone game were not the most realistic.

Was not an universal argument the no point of the sim vs real lap times or I'm mistaken and was just an argument against GT5? ignore the GT5 part if you want, everyone can decide for yourself if the game meets the requisites.

"Let me start this off with the exceptions, so no one gets caught in the crossfire unfairly: if you've built a rig in your home to play iRacing, SimRaceway, or any other high quality computer-based simulator the lap times are definitely important as that's the point."

Accurate lap times in an accurate modeled track it's a must have in a sim driving game.

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

They are not really saying that the lap times are accurate, just saying they are important if you play those games.

 

[Zer0]

They are not really saying that the lap times are accurate, just saying they are important if you play those games.

And why the lap times are important? what is the goal in that afirmation when he talks of rigs and high quality sims?

 

[DarkAvengerZR1]

And why the lap times are important? what is the goal in that afirmation when he talks of rigs and high quality sims?

Time trial competitions? Races against other players?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Then it is a case of do what i say don't do what i do? I see, keep that way Slip.

Keep purposely misinterpreting moderator comments and putting words in peoples' mouths, if you'd like. It's not a wise move.

Was not an universal argument the no point of the sim vs real lap times or I'm mistaken and was just an argument against GT5? ignore the GT5 part if you want, everyone can decide for yourself if the game meets the requisites.

Oh, I'm not speaking of GT5 alone, I'm speaking of sims in general.

"Let me start this off with the exceptions, so no one gets caught in the crossfire unfairly: if you've built a rig in your home to play iRacing, SimRaceway, or any other high quality computer-based simulator the lap times are definitely important as that's the point."

If you're that heavily invested in the sims that you've got a rig, I feel like the point that's trying to be made is that it has become a serious pastime, a competitive one, and as such, lap times matter. I don't know anybody who "casually" plays iRacing, for instance; it's very much about their lap times. This of course brings up the weird duality of GT; we hear about "the love of cars", or the "automotive encyclopaedia" comments, despite there being a very healthy interest in the lap time comparisons / racing aspect of the game. That's natural of course; tying in with the idea of PD having the most accurate version of the Nurburgring. We hear that it's the closest to the real thing, which only increases the desire to compare lap times, since they are then assumed to be closer to real times, comparison-wise, than other games. But that's simplifying, as only worrying about the model accuracy means little in the scheme of lap times without picking apart the far more complicated physics engine.

Accurate lap times in an accurate modeled track it's a must have in a sim driving game.

They are, but how we get to them is the thing we should be focusing on (IMO), not the final numbers themselves. GT5 has the advantage of an excellently modeled track (and there, again, is my answer to the OP), but it is only a portion of that final, golden formula 👍

 

[diegorborges]

IMHO GT5 have the best version, definitely. Race 07 seem to have a good version too. I played the V2 on rFactor and it looks good layout-wise like Foxiol said...

 

[generationlost]

I played FM4 a couple of days ago, and I played on the nurburgring and it definitely felt/looked foreign at some points of the track, some of the turns didn't look right compared to videos I've seen. I definitely see why people say GT5 has the best version of the Nordschleife. I think it captures the precarious nature of the nurburgring the best.

 

[Scaff]

It is if you for some reason don't want to give credit to GT5 and a matter of opinion not fact.

From the same higly acclaimed Jalopnik source:

http://jalopnik.com/5950978/

Did you actually bother to read that article or simply latch onto the bit you 'think' supports real vs sim lap times?

Now either you didn't read it (in which case why are you posting it without doing so) or you did read it and are aware that it doesn't cover the topic of real vs virtual lap times at all and that its equally dismissive of both FM4 and GT5 as truly accurate sims.

Now if its the latter then you need to pay a little more attention to the AUP, which clearly states "You will not knowingly post any material that is false, misleading, or inaccurate.". Regardless this is either very lazy posting or a straight AUP violation, in either case its certainly not acceptable.

All of which is an aside from the fact that all of that the content of the article is off topic and should have carried a language warning.

However I must thank you for a great example of how not to post as a member of GTP.

 

[LarryL]

pCARS will not be a failure.

If it handles on consoles (meaning with a controller) anything like Shift2Unleashed does, it will be a failure. If it handles with a controller like GT, then it will be amazing. pCars already has me sold when it comes to content and visuals (discounting environs), but it has to be a joy to play like GT5 is, not a chore to play like Shift 2 is.

 

[Samus]

If it handles on consoles (meaning with a controller) anything like Shift2Unleashed does, it will be a failure. If it handles with a controller like GT, then it will be amazing. pCars already has me sold when it comes to content and visuals (discounting environs), but it has to be a joy to play like GT5 is, not a chore to play like Shift 2 is.

I am a team member playing all the builds and trust me, it's nothing like either Shift game.

 

[amar212]

Test Drive Ferrari Legends



I must say, pretty decent indeed. Elevation could be better though, noticable between "Schwedenkreuz" (km 5) and "Fuchsröhre" (km 6)... about min. 1:35 in the video

Yes, that is the model I was referring to in my earlier post as the "latest model from SMS (not Shift one)" - it has great geometry overall, it has much better and believable bumps and kerbs then GT5 (IMO) and it feels damn thrilling to drive with the good FFB wheel (physics of that game are also extremely decent for a game that everybody think about as arcade or some Shift clone - which it is not by any mean).

Ferrari Racing Legends is the greatest single under-appreciated gem of this complete generation of driving games.

 

[diegorborges]

Yes, that is the model I was referring to in my earlier post as the "latest model from SMS (not Shift one)" - it has great geometry overall, it has much better and believable bumps and kerbs then GT5 (IMO) and it feels damn thrilling to drive with the good FFB wheel (physics of that game are also extremely decent for a game that everybody think about as arcade or some Shift clone - which it is not by any mean).

Ferrari Racing Legends is the greatest single under-appreciated gem of this complete generation of driving games.

Yeah, now that you guys posted about it, you got me really interested about this game... the visuals look good, it all feels alright. I`ll get it asap! If Project CARS already look like this on consoles I`ll be already happy. The only thing that still bothers me on Project CARS it`s that they have few street, normal cars... I hope they get more and more normal cars then it'll be a blast!

 

[Foxiol]

Yes, that is the model I was referring to in my earlier post as the "latest model from SMS (not Shift one)" - it has great geometry overall, it has much better and believable bumps and kerbs then GT5 (IMO) and it feels damn thrilling to drive with the good FFB wheel (physics of that game are also extremely decent for a game that everybody think about as arcade or some Shift clone - which it is not by any mean).

Ferrari Racing Legends is the greatest single under-appreciated gem of this complete generation of driving games.

About the track...SMS is not using any method to map the track.

Not laser scan and not even GPS which are the 2 basic and most accurate mapping methods in the market to make tracks. How can you say that it has "much better and believable bumps and Kervs than GT5"?

No, it doesn´t. In GT5 what it is wrong is the tyre model and suspension physics not the track, which in this case is what it is making you "believe" that the track is more believable. The track in GT5 has every bump and the right width and length which is not present in that game.

Don´t confuse by what you feel from what it is actually "true".

I play simulators on PC as rFactor, rFactor 2, GSC 2012, NetKar Pro, RBR and many more, and simulation fans always have debates and we discuss about GT and Forza games too because we like them but always lacks in simulation physics and overall feedback reaction (not having a very good FFB means that suspension and tyre model is not as accurate as it should be. That has nothing to do with the surface that you are "running".

Also I give you the review of InsideSimRacingTV:



Game is good but not a sim.

 

[Flaco13]

@Amar and Diegoborges: I'm going to get my hands on Ferrari Legends now, too. Although I'm not a Ferrari lover at all.
I also only seen videos so far. I'm also excited at how P Cars is going to be on consoles and if Ferrari Legends is any valid as a 'preview' to PCars (since its both by SMS I guess there are similarities) I'm happy with it.

@Foxiol: Not everybody has the privilege to own all consoles, 1 or more PC's and all the sims on the market at once. If we where all equally 'privileged' (how awsome would that be???) we would all run that 'Rfactor Pro' thing someone mentioned before or some 10,000,000$ Simulator used by some big fishes in the Auto-industry, no doubt.

But many people are bound to consoles, sometimes one platform only and thats why I think the steps that are beeing taken right now, by SMS currently (SimBin tried before) to take on bringing serious sims onto consoles, are very important.

Wether you call GT5, FM4 and this Ferrari Legends sims or not, its what console users got! Unless they can afford a PC and a 'real' sim.

Ferrari Legends obviously has 'good' modeled tracks. A properly made Nordschleife is the one that matters most to me. I don't care if its perfect, I got GT5 for that. As long as it looks better than FM's it's ok, laser scan this gps that.

 

[Speed XII]

Warning, off topic post.

I find it funny how people don't find GT5 a "serious sim".
Please elaborate why is GT5 a lesser sim than, let's say, rFactor? Tyre model? rF, iRacing and a few others lack weather changes, different track temprature per each track and some other things, why should they be considered more of a sim than GT5?
Just because it's sold in less quantities doesn't make a game more or less of a sim.

People are seriously overrating SMS and pCARS, I've seen what SMS can do, seen enough thank you. Don't compliment the game before release or you will be dissapointed.

I love GT5's feel, I find GT5's ffb perfect (rFactor has too strong ffb, which is unrealistic in my opinion). ISR use that term "where rubber meets the road" and it's a spot on way to describe the driving feel on GT5. The precision is top notch and that's why, in my honest opinion, GT5 is the best sim for time trialing. Not the most realistic, but the best.

 

[machschnel]

I find it funny how people don't find GT5 a "serious sim".
Please elaborate why is GT5 a lesser sim than, let's say, rFactor? Tyre model?

Bingo

 

[amar212]

About the track...SMS is not using any method to map the track.
How can you say that it has "much better and believable bumps and Kervs than GT5"?

Don´t confuse by what you feel from what it is actually "true".

Also I give you the review of InsideSimRacingTV:

With all do respect Foxiol, I agree with everything you say but it also does not change my personal and subjective opinion I have displayed.

I am not speaking about simulation aspects of anything, I am just speaking about accuracy of and feel the Nordschelife. And please trust me when I say how it really feels great there.

Nurburing Nordschelife looks and drives great in Ferrari Racing Legends, as long as you are driving the game with the decent FFB wheel. Since that game has great FFB effects and overall physics of suspensions feels great, complete sensation is on-the-spot so thus my conclusions.

Also, please do not drag the opinion of those 2 clowns into this discussion. That actual review of Ferrari Racing Legends by ISR is the greatest testament of their incompetence regarding reviewing anything. To restrain from going off-topic too much, here are some of my writeups regarding FRL from some other forums, please check them out to get the idea about why their review is actually a great pile of trash and what are my personal and subjective reasons to praise that particular game so much.

It will be a lengthy read, but please take your time if you are interested.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41943840&postcount=237
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41980316&postcount=248
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42260844&postcount=256
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42302775&postcount=261

Also, here is the CP of my latest comment made about this game on SMS/WMD forums, I am c/ping it here because you can't read it there unless you are a member:

At this moment it has been almost 2 full months since I've downloaded FRL from PSN and started playing it on my PS3. In my previous posts in this thread I have already said multiple times how I like FRL more than I could even imagine, and today - with more then 40 playing hours invested in game - the feeling is same.

At this moment I have successfully reached the Modern Era, coped around 57% of game completion and earned a title of Champion. The road ahead me is long, because races are getting harder and more complicated and at this moment I am already trying to win one race for days now, and that particular race is my only reason for writing this post.

So Andy Garton - and all guys of SMS who were in charge of programming challenges for Ferrari Racing Legends - I have to say how I officially hate you and respect you in the same time. The race in focus is the 8th race of Prototype Season on Road America, so far the greatest testimonial to my personal and subjective love for this game and main reason why I sincerely consider it a greatest Unknown Racing Gem™ of this whole generation of platforms.

In order to explain why, I have to lay some groundwork at first place. Ferrari Racing Legends is one mean game which have some aspects you can't know about unless you opt to drive on Hard settings and drive it on maximum simulation options. Particular aspect in question here is tyre-wear, something you become aware of at one point of game when longer races with stronger cars begin and when you suddenly realize how there is something going on with your grip after the 4th lap of the race when you - of course - drive your car on 120% of potential, as we all usually do in video-games. Tyre-wear is something you actually never get to be informed about by game itself, you just realize it is there and start to live with it. But things gets very complicated once you step in the higher tier Eras, with 7-10 lap races and especially those that use vehicles with high-torque and high HP.

And that particular Road America race is one of those races. I am already 4 days into that race, where you start at the very final laps of imaginative endurance race of 50 laps, on lap 43. You are on 5th position, car is P330 prototype, and your mission is simple: overtake one particular car (3rd position) in order to get points for your team, but for Bonus challenge you have to finish 2nd and allow your team-mate (who drives on 1st place) to take precious points for his final score. AI is set to Hard. They are fast. Damn fast. Car on position #4 is 4 seconds ahead of you. Car on position #6 is 3 seconds behind you. And horror can begin.

I don't know how many times I've restarted that race, I think 20? 30? And it took me 2 full days to find a proper balance in getting into corners with enough speed but also enough grip to avoid even the slightest un-neccessary slipping - which is the main factor that eats the compound - to even come as far as lap 48 before completely loosing grip on front tires. In short, I was whole 2 lap short. Another 2 days and I somehow managed to find a balance to run more-less consecutive laps needed to maintain the gap from cars behind once I reach position #3 or #2, but I can only endure to very beginning of lap 50 before my tires are eaten-out. In one of the tries I was 3-corners short from final turn, but I knew I had no chance to survive the attack from car on #3 position that was on my rear for 4 laps. I didn't survive. Tires went over the cliff, P330 went into oversteer on the curb and I could only hit *Restart* again.

I know I can do it. I am aware I am losing precious compound mostly in the Carousel and on braking before Toyota Bridge and on Canada Corner because I clearly hear the squeel of tires and I know I have to find a way to save them for bit more. But at this point I still can't manage to do all 4 things needed in one consecutive 8-lap run:

- to catch and maintain 2nd position without losing too much compound in the process,
- to absolutely avoid any un-neccessary slip throughout whole race,
- to manage to run the lines in order to prevent pack in endangering both me and my team-mate, and
- to save the needed amount of compound for the last section of the last lap

Oh yeah, I somehow forgot to highlight this small detail: there is no graphical/visual showcase of tire-wear. None. Zero. It is all up only to your feel of grip, experience with the car, knowledge of the track and driving-skill you have to present in order to finish race on #2. What a damn great piece of challenge.

Congratulations SMS guys. I know you are very reserved about Ferrari Racing Legends from many reasons, but I really enjoy in what you did with this game. I have found dozen of various bugs so far, invisible walls that suddenly appear are special type of PITA and non-consecutive AI-levels in Career are a bit of a letdown and highlight in the same time. But this race.. this race.. Thank you for this race, because once I finally manage to finish it - and I know I will - it will stand in the Hall of Fame™ of my personal most thrilling experiences that driving genre has granted me with in past 20 years of my virtual driving escapades.

To conclude, FRL is a great, great game. It is not a 100% simulation but IMO it is not that far from being considered as one once you take your time and dive into it. It does so many things great and Nordschelife is one of them 👍

 

[Scaff]

Warning, off topic post.

If you know its off topic then why did you post it here when the correct thread has already been linked to?

I find it funny how people don't find GT5 a "serious sim".
Please elaborate why is GT5 a lesser sim than, let's say, rFactor? Tyre model? rF, iRacing and a few others lack weather changes, different track temprature per each track and some other things, why should they be considered more of a sim than GT5?
Just because it's sold in less quantities doesn't make a game more or less of a sim.

People are seriously overrating SMS and pCARS, I've seen what SMS can do, seen enough thank you. Don't compliment the game before release or you will be dissapointed.

I love GT5's feel, I find GT5's ffb perfect (rFactor has too strong ffb, which is unrealistic in my opinion). ISR use that term "where rubber meets the road" and it's a spot on way to describe the driving feel on GT5. The precision is top notch and that's why, in my honest opinion, GT5 is the best sim for time trialing. Not the most realistic, but the best.

Reply is here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7824946#post7824946

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

With all do respect Foxiol, I agree with everything you say but it also does not change my personal and subjective opinion I have displayed.

I am not speaking about simulation aspects of anything, I am just speaking about accuracy of and feel the Nordschelife. And please trust me when I say how it really feels great there.

Nurburing Nordschelife looks and drives great in Ferrari Racing Legends, as long as you are driving the game with the decent FFB wheel. Since that game has great FFB effects and overall physics of suspensions feels great, complete sensation is on-the-spot so thus my conclusions.

Also, please do not drag the opinion of those 2 clowns into this discussion. That actual review of Ferrari Racing Legends by ISR is the greatest testament of their incompetence regarding reviewing anything. To restrain from going off-topic too much, here are some of my writeups regarding FRL from some other forums, please check them out to get the idea about why their review is actually a great pile of trash and what are my personal and subjective reasons to praise that particular game so much.

It will be a lengthy read, but please take your time if you are interested.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41943840&postcount=237
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=41980316&postcount=248
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42260844&postcount=256
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42302775&postcount=261

Also, here is the CP of my latest comment made about this game on SMS/WMD forums, I am c/ping it here because you can't read it there unless you are a member:



To conclude, FRL is a great, great game. It is not a 100% simulation but IMO it is not that far from being considered as one once you take your time and dive into it. It does so many things great and Nordschelife is one of them 👍

Your post makes me want to buy the game now How does it compare to the Ferrari The Racing Experience or Supercar Challenge, physics and gameplay wise? To avoid cluttering the thread, could you PM me, please, thanks.

 

[machschnel]

Quick question.

Does it have the same steering lag as Shift 2 did? Playing with a Driving Force GT if that helps.

 

[Whistle Snap]

Wheel imprecision and sliding effect of the Shift series are gone. The game is fantastic to drive (I'm using G27), but what I want to know is why Shift is poor in comparison? The game was completed before Shift 1&2, did SMS add the handling characteristics of Project Cars to it?