Obama Presidency Discussion Thread

How would you vote in the 2008 US Presidential Election?

  • Obama-Biden (Democrat)

    Votes: 67 59.3%
  • McCain-Palin (Republican)

    Votes: 18 15.9%
  • Barr-Root (Libertarian)

    Votes: 14 12.4%
  • Nader-Gonzales (Independent-Ecology Party / Peace and Freedom Party)

    Votes: 5 4.4%
  • McKinney-Clemente (Green)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Baldwin-Castle (Constitution)

    Votes: 7 6.2%
  • Gurney-? (Car & Driver)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Other...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    113
  • Poll closed .
The one thing that differs between Obama and commentators is that you can take what Obama to say as "fact". Meaning it's more or less coming straight from the source, whether what he is saying is right or wrong. I don't disagree there is a lot to criticise with him though.

I'm still up in the air about Obama, he's done some things that I can agree with but he's done things that I don't agree with at all. I guess in the end he's just a politician.

LOL! No, actually, you can't. This would just be a case of whose opinion is better founded.

When it comes to Obama's health car reform I suggest people look at FoolKiller's post #2649. He took information and generated an opinion based on it and did not let someone else make his statement for him, but rather took an editorial and used it to support his opinion...not to mention used government data to support it too.

As far as I can tell the US is going about socialism medicine the completely wrong way. If we are going to do it, and it seem inevitable that we are, I hope to the gods we actually put some thought into it instead of rushing it through Congress.

Really what would be better is to really put all these drug companies and doctors into check. I got a bill from the dentist, it was $265 for him to look in my mouth for 30 seconds and tell me I didn't have an cavities and for the hygienist to clean my teeth for 20 minutes. So effectively I was there 30 minutes and it was $265 to my insurance...really? And the sad part is, it doesn't matter what dentist I do to, they will all charge a fortune for a tiny bit of work.

I see real no way to combat this either, you have to have health care so you can't boycott it. You can shop around but most insurance requires you to go to a certain doctor. I know a lot of you think social medicine is bad, but do you have a realistic way to fix the problem?

If we put any thought into it at all, we would come to the conclusion that it is not worth doing.

The problem is health care. Not health insurance, healthcare. Whenever you have a third party payer involved, prices tend to skyrocket. We buy car insurance, but we don't buy car care. In other words, if something major happens then, fine, you pay for whatever your policy says. We don't use car insurance to fill up with gasoline and change the oil and everything. But that's essentially analogous to how healthcare works. Factor in the costs of the bureaucracy introduced by involving the government and you got a real expensive bill for an inferior (par the very best) service.

One thing the government could do is to remove restrictions on interstate policies. I can tell you that there would be nationwide provider networks within a month. There is one here that is on hold because of this and Obamacare.

Otherwise, the best thing the government can do is not to dig the hole any deeper. Look at the mess we have now with what's being proposed, presented in an overly-simplified chart:


And then look at the overly-complex free market approach:
freemarketchartx.gif
 
At this point, I think I have more of a problem with the lies and scare tactics being used by both sides. The GOP is trying to kill it, and the Dems are pushing too hard too quickly. I still feel like there is a rational answer out there, but until people are willing to sacrifice something (god forbid we do for anything in this country), nothing will get done.
 
LOL! No, actually, you can't. This would just be a case of whose opinion is better founded.

You noticed "fact" was in quotes right?

===

I think I'm going to have to agree with Brad on this one and day both sides are doing it wrong and it's just going to hurt the middle class citizens in the end. If you are wealthy you'll always be able to afford the best health care, if you are poor, you'll receive charity care. It's the middle class, which most of us are apart of which will get screwed like we always do.

I also agree that it seems like no one ever wants to make concessions in the time of crisis. Both sides have to give something in order to make it work.
 
Yeah, Joey, I see what you mean. Thinking about it further, I don't know whether it's sad that people are complacent into thinking that, or that we have a guy up there who is so critically wrong.

At this point, I think I have more of a problem with the lies and scare tactics being used by both sides. The GOP is trying to kill it, and the Dems are pushing too hard too quickly. I still feel like there is a rational answer out there, but until people are willing to sacrifice something (god forbid we do for anything in this country), nothing will get done.

Yes but you see the point is not that we're arguing over which way is the right way. We know that already-- consumers directly using services from health care providers (a direct doctor-patient relationship) is the best way to have commerce, just like any other good or service. The goal for now is that, indeed, nothing will get done. If the democrat congress gets their way, they'll just make things worse. Yes, Nixon-style healthcare sucks, but in treating the problems associated with it, I think it would be wise to follow the keystone precept of the entire medical field: Primum non nocere.
 
While drones are extremely useful, you'll never make them react as a human would. Even if there is a human flying it through a computer screen, it's still not the same thing as having a pilot fly a plane. Plus it's not like we are loosing a ton of plane (or any planes) to enemy fire, most of the time we lose plane to accidents or pilot error.

You want air superiority? The first step is removing the pilots, humans are the things holding planes back. We can't sustain the G forces which they can now create in some of their maneouvres, most of the new planes are only in the air because of computers as it is anyway!
 
At this point, I think I have more of a problem with the lies and scare tactics being used by both sides. The GOP is trying to kill it, and the Dems are pushing too hard too quickly. I still feel like there is a rational answer out there, but until people are willing to sacrifice something (god forbid we do for anything in this country), nothing will get done.
The problem is that no one can agree on what that sacrifice should be. When freedoms and equality are the sacrifice it is a bad deal.

Yes but you see the point is not that we're arguing over which way is the right way. We know that already-- consumers directly using services from health care providers (a direct doctor-patient relationship) is the best way to have commerce, just like any other good or service.
If you think that everyone knows or believes that you are giving them too much credit. There is too much of a belief in this country that the government should be the cure for all their problems.

Fortunately, the general public is smart enough to look at a 1,000+ page plan and then look at either their magazine sized book or the two-page summary chart from current healthcare plans and realize that the current situation will at least be less confusing.



The problem with this is that almost none of the members of Congress that are heavily involved in this actually care about how good the healthcare of the American people will be. Most of them have turned this into a make or break the Obama Administration issue.

The goal for now is that, indeed, nothing will get done.
Looking at the alternatives so far proposed I agree that this is the best course of action that can be taken at the moment.
 
:rolleyes:I was there 30 minutes and it was $265 to my insurance...really?

I had $400 of blood work done recently. When it came time to pay the bill they asked me if I had insurance. I knew my insurance would not even touch this bill (I was out of network, didn't see my primary care physician, and they wouldn't cover this test anyway) so I said "they won't cover it". Once I said that, the receptionist handed me a "coupon" that made my $400 bloodwork cost $130.

The price is bloated FOR the insurance companies. Do you think it will be any different when it's the taxpayer footing the bill?
 
The price is bloated FOR the insurance companies. Do you think it will be any different when it's the taxpayer footing the bill?

C'mon! Look at how many companies offering medical equipment to the general public - like diabetes monitors or mobility scooters or the like - that never even mention how much they cost in their advertising! All they mention is that "If you have MediCare or MedicAid, we can get it for you for free!" How much do you think the rest of us taxpayers are paying so that some obese diabetic with a twinkie addiction can drive around WalMart on his/her scooter?

I have 2 words I'll repeat for anyone who thinks socialized medicine is a good idea in the US:

Veterans. Administration.
 
I just happened upon an article, from CNN of all places, about 5 freedoms you will lose with the health care reform. Basically, it is pointing out that what the president is saying it will do and what Congress is actually drafting are not the same thing. What it actually looks like will be a much bigger and more poorly designed HMO.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/new....fortune/index.htm?section=money_news_economy

5 freedoms you'd lose in health care reform
If you read the fine print in the Congressional plans, you'll find that a lot of cherished aspects of the current system would disappear.

July 24, 2009: 10:17 AM ET

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- In promoting his health-care agenda, President Obama has repeatedly reassured Americans that they can keep their existing health plans -- and that the benefits and access they prize will be enhanced through reform.

A close reading of the two main bills, one backed by Democrats in the House and the other issued by Sen. Edward Kennedy's Health committee, contradict the President's assurances. To be sure, it isn't easy to comb through their 2,000 pages of tortured legal language. But page by page, the bills reveal a web of restrictions, fines, and mandates that would radically change your health-care coverage.

If you prize choosing your own cardiologist or urologist under your company's Preferred Provider Organization plan (PPO), if your employer rewards your non-smoking, healthy lifestyle with reduced premiums, if you love the bargain Health Savings Account (HSA) that insures you just for the essentials, or if you simply take comfort in the freedom to spend your own money for a policy that covers the newest drugs and diagnostic tests -- you may be shocked to learn that you could lose all of those good things under the rules proposed in the two bills that herald a health-care revolution.

In short, the Obama platform would mandate extremely full, expensive, and highly subsidized coverage -- including a lot of benefits people would never pay for with their own money -- but deliver it through a highly restrictive, HMO-style plan that will determine what care and tests you can and can't have. It's a revolution, all right, but in the wrong direction.

Let's explore the five freedoms that Americans would lose under Obamacare:

1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan

The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.

Today, many states require these "standard benefits packages" -- and they're a major cause for the rise in health-care costs. Every group, from chiropractors to alcohol-abuse counselors, do lobbying to get included. Connecticut, for example, requires reimbursement for hair transplants, hearing aids, and in vitro fertilization.

The Senate bill would require coverage for prescription drugs, mental-health benefits, and substance-abuse services. It also requires policies to insure "children" until the age of 26. That's just the starting list. The bills would allow the Department of Health and Human Services to add to the list of required benefits, based on recommendations from a committee of experts. Americans, therefore, wouldn't even know what's in their plans and what they're required to pay for, directly or indirectly, until after the bills become law.

2. Freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, or pay your real costs

As with the previous example, the Obama plan enshrines into federal law one of the worst features of state legislation: community rating. Eleven states, ranging from New York to Oregon, have some form of community rating. In its purest form, community rating requires that all patients pay the same rates for their level of coverage regardless of their age or medical condition.

Americans with pre-existing conditions need subsidies under any plan, but community rating is a dubious way to bring fairness to health care. The reason is twofold: First, it forces young people, who typically have lower incomes than older workers, to pay far more than their actual cost, and gives older workers, who can afford to pay more, a big discount. The state laws gouging the young are a major reason so many of them have joined the ranks of uninsured.

Under the Senate plan, insurers would be barred from charging any more than twice as much for one patient vs. any other patient with the same coverage. So if a 20-year-old who costs just $800 a year to insure is forced to pay $2,500, a 62-year-old who costs $7,500 would pay no more than $5,000.

Second, the bills would ban insurers from charging differing premiums based on the health of their customers. Again, that's understandable for folks with diabetes or cancer. But the bills would bar rewarding people who pursue a healthy lifestyle of exercise or a cholesterol-conscious diet. That's hardly a formula for lower costs. It's as if car insurers had to charge the same rates to safe drivers as to chronic speeders with a history of accidents.

3. Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage

The bills threaten to eliminate the one part of the market truly driven by consumers spending their own money. That's what makes a market, and health care needs more of it, not less.

Hundreds of companies now offer Health Savings Accounts to about 5 million employees. Those workers deposit tax-free money in the accounts and get a matching contribution from their employer. They can use the funds to buy a high-deductible plan -- say for major medical costs over $12,000. Preventive care is reimbursed, but patients pay all other routine doctor visits and tests with their own money from the HSA account. As a result, HSA users are far more cost-conscious than customers who are reimbursed for the majority of their care.

The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general. By requiring minimum packages, they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses. "The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."

4. Freedom to keep your existing plan

This is the freedom that the President keeps emphasizing. Yet the bills appear to say otherwise. It's worth diving into the weeds -- the territory where most pundits and politicians don't seem to have ventured.

The legislation divides the insured into two main groups, and those two groups are treated differently with respect to their current plans. The first are employees covered by the Employee Retirement Security Act of 1974. ERISA regulates companies that are self-insured, meaning they pay claims out of their cash flow, and don't have real insurance. Those are the GEs (GE, Fortune 500) and Time Warners (TWX, Fortune 500) and most other big companies.

The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are "grandfathered." Under ERISA, the plans can do pretty much what they want -- they're exempt from standard packages and community rating and can reward employees for healthy lifestyles even in restrictive states.

But read on.

The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.

The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.

5. Freedom to choose your doctors

The Senate bill requires that Americans buying through the exchanges -- and as we've seen, that will soon be most Americans -- must get their care through something called "medical home." Medical home is similar to an HMO. You're assigned a primary care doctor, and the doctor controls your access to specialists. The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.

Under the proposals, the gatekeepers would theoretically guide patients to tests and treatments that have proved most cost-effective. The danger is that doctors will be financially rewarded for denying care, as were HMO physicians more than a decade ago. It was consumer outrage over despotic gatekeepers that made the HMOs so unpopular, and killed what was billed as the solution to America's health-care cost explosion.

The bills do not specifically rule out fee-for-service plans as options to be offered through the exchanges. But remember, those plans -- if they exist -- would be barred from charging sick or elderly patients more than young and healthy ones. So patients would be inclined to game the system, staying in the HMO while they're healthy and switching to fee-for-service when they become seriously ill. "That would kill fee-for-service in a hurry," says Goodman.

In reality, the flexible, employer-based plans that now dominate the landscape, and that Americans so cherish, could disappear far faster than the 5 year "grace period" that's barely being discussed.

Companies would have the option of paying an 8% payroll tax into a fund that pays for coverage for Americans who aren't covered by their employers. It won't happen right away -- large companies must wait a couple of years before they opt out. But it will happen, since it's likely that the tax will rise a lot more slowly than corporate health-care costs, especially since they'll be lobbying Washington to keep the tax under control in the righteous name of job creation.

The best solution is to move to a let-freedom-ring regime of high deductibles, no community rating, no standard benefits, and cross-state shopping for bargains (another market-based reform that's strictly taboo in the bills). I'll propose my own solution in another piece soon on Fortune.com. For now, we suffer with a flawed health-care system, but we still have our Five Freedoms. Call them the Five Endangered Freedoms.



And I think I might start buying everything with $2 bills from now on.
 
I think I'm going to have to agree with Brad on this one and day both sides are doing it wrong and it's just going to hurt the middle class citizens in the end... Both sides have to give something in order to make it work.

That pretty much sums it up. I don't make enough money to get the good healthcare, and I don't make enough to go without. I had a good talk with a French tourist over the weekend over their healthcare system, and she was otherwise dumbfounded by how we just can't get it right here. She pointed out that until we get the politics out of the way, we'll never get anything done, no matter how large or small the reform may be.
 
That pretty much sums it up. I don't make enough money to get the good healthcare, and I don't make enough to go without. I had a good talk with a French tourist over the weekend over their healthcare system, and she was otherwise dumbfounded by how we just can't get it right here. She pointed out that until we get the politics out of the way, we'll never get anything done, no matter how large or small the reform may be.
Quick, how much money will you still have to take home on a government plan and what coverage will you have exactly? Better yet, will you even be able to choose the good health care?

If you don't know the answer, supporting it seems a bit silly.

And are we seriously going to follow a French model? France and free market aren't exactly two things that have a history of going well together. I mean, they do have one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe. If we followed a French model you likely wouldn't have any job. Every time they attempt a new Keynesian plan (which nationalized health care is) it only hurts them more.
 
Pretty much you are going to be screwed regardless. Either the government is going to take your money or the health insurance companies are. In the end it's just going to hurt the middle class because we can't afford the high premiums of health insurance, or paying for health care without it, nor can we really afford high taxes. I really wish politicians would look at the Average Joe instead of Peter Poorman or Walter Wealthyman.
 
Omnis has been trying to explain the actual proper fix that needs to be done, but no one is listening.


I agree with him, but right now I am more concerned about not letting this government plan go through that will just screw us all over.

As the current options are Obamacare or status quo I am fighting for status quo. When that fight ends then I will be ready to push for a move toward actual free market health care.
 
Omnis has been trying to explain the actual proper fix that needs to be done, but no one is listening.

So we allow nationwide policies and the problem is over? I highly doubt that. And you can't fix the greed of the doctors, dentist, drug companies, etc.

You are still going to have doctors thinking they should make an obscene amount of money for a rudimentary health fixes and drug companies that feel the same way. I picked up prescriptions for my dad on the way home from work, if we didn't have insurance it would have cost $756.85 for a one month supply. That's ludicrous. Granted we have insurance so we only pay a $20 co-pay, which is fine. I don't expect the my car insurance to cover everything either and I have to pay a deductible.

The only way I know of to combat prices is to have either the government regulate them or have people stop buying the drugs or paying for the service. Since it's impossible to suggest people should stop getting drugs they need to survive, the only option we are left with it government intervention.

We have caught ourselves between a rock and a hard place. I think government funded health care could work, I don't think it's going to work how Obama is proposing we do it though.
 
So we allow nationwide policies and the problem is over? I highly doubt that. And you can't fix the greed of the doctors, dentist, drug companies, etc.

Heh. But those guys that sell you computers, they're not greedy. That's why the prices keep coming down right? What about the folks that make bread. They're not greedy either, otherwise bread would cost a fortune. We're sooooo lucky that not everyone is as greedy as doctors, dentists, and drug companies. I can't imagine what life would be like if EVERYONE tried to maximize profit. Good thing farmers try not to make a profit off of products that we need to survive. If it weren't for their altruism, none of us would eat.

I picked up prescriptions for my dad on the way home from work, if we didn't have insurance it would have cost $756.85 for a one month supply. That's ludicrous.

Did you see my post earlier in response to this? They charge the insurance company MORE than they would if you paid for it out of pocket... and it's not like you don't pay for it in the end. You're not getting a free ride from your insurance company.

My earlier post already happened to me again. Just the other day I scheduled an examination that was supposed to cost ~$400. The "cash" price (no insurance) was $150.

The only way I know of to combat prices is to have either the government regulate them or have people stop buying the drugs or paying for the service.

This statement is at the core of your problem. You don't understand why bread is cheap - and so you can't undertand any way in which prices could be reduced without additional government intrusion or people going without. If you did understand the way capitalism works, you'd know exactly why healthcare is so expensive right now, and why government intervention is akin to throwing gasoline on a fire.
 
So we allow nationwide policies and the problem is over? I highly doubt that. And you can't fix the greed of the doctors, dentist, drug companies, etc.

You are still going to have doctors thinking they should make an obscene amount of money for a rudimentary health fixes and drug companies that feel the same way. I picked up prescriptions for my dad on the way home from work, if we didn't have insurance it would have cost $756.85 for a one month supply. That's ludicrous. Granted we have insurance so we only pay a $20 co-pay, which is fine. I don't expect the my car insurance to cover everything either and I have to pay a deductible.

The only way I know of to combat prices is to have either the government regulate them or have people stop buying the drugs or paying for the service. Since it's impossible to suggest people should stop getting drugs they need to survive, the only option we are left with it government intervention.

We have caught ourselves between a rock and a hard place. I think government funded health care could work, I don't think it's going to work how Obama is proposing we do it though.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Doctors and dentists don't even factor into what's at hand here. Indeed, without them and their greedy asses, we would all just be dead and toothless... but at least all of us wouldn't be fleeced, right? Why did healthcare become so outrageous, anyway? Surely not because greed had just been invented. Don't fall into the trap of scapegoating something without arriving at a true solution-- especially when it comes to greed, the ultimate red herring. You're justified in being pissed off for having to pay (let's say) 200 bucks to a cold-handed gentleman that told you to cough. But don't blame or be mad at the doctors. Most internists are in very different situations... only the ones that budget themselves to depend on that 200 bucks (that healthcare would've paid) are the ones who ask for it.

I think I've covered the difference between health insurance and healthcare pretty thoroughly. Again, just imagine how insanely expensive the price of Carcare would be, where your carcare provider would pay for fuel, oil, and literally everything involving the wellness of your motor vehicle. Maybe it doesn't seem so ludicrous that pills cost 700 bucks now. Big Pharma is one of the bigger beneficiaries of the system, as you can no doubt tell. But then prices of pharmaceuticals, again, have more to do with health insurance v. healthcare. Medicare Part D was a huge contributor to this Tetsuo-scale price explosion. I shudder at what could happen under a new amalgam of promises, funded by zeroes typed into computer accounts.

Now, as for nationwide policies, no, they wouldn't fix every problem, but they would be a pragmatic solution that would allow for more options and ease costs for some clients depending on their location and situation. Think of Obamacare, but run by perhaps 10 private, competing groups at the national level and 10 groups per region at the regional level. That could happen within a month. That's huge. I know men working on a nationwide plan that intends to obsolesce medicaid. They're sitting idle because of stupid government policy. Yet they could be up and going in Florida, Georgia, and Alabama within a month, expanding throughout the US in perhaps 6. There is a reservoir of entrepreneurship out there. If we're going to explore national healthcare coverage, why stifle ourselves with Obamacare?
 
Then we use our 180 Raptors that we already have. And in the unlikely event that we needed more, you can bet they would get made. Quickly.
Airplanes don't get made and driven off the assembly line like a Cobalt. You're being a fool. Every single plane gets the same thorough testing before it gets sent to a customer.

You people are making me nervous. You all seem to have a "good enough" attitude about one of the few legitimate reasons we have a government to begin with. For all I care the government can stop all funding of everything entirely, and I would be perfectly happy as long as they defend us citizens from international threats wealthily. I don't care if we don't need them now, and I don't care if we never need them. You never know when you will, and my own defense is not something to be skimped on, ever.

I've stated before that I don't support the "world police" policies that are going on now. Even a humble do it yourselfer can build a car in his garage if he has every tool he could ever possibly need. He'll never use 90% of them--until he needs it. And you never know when you're going to need it, because nothing ever works out exactly the way it's supposed to.
 
If we're going to explore national healthcare coverage, why stifle ourselves with Obamacare?

I guess I look outside of the US, and I think we still have to ask ourselves, why not? Not necessarily as the most-legitimate answer, but as something that should be looked at, broken down, and perhaps considered. By my evaluations of what is at this point only being proposed in both houses of Congress, and by the President, we aren't anywhere close to the European, or even Canadian models. But why, for any reason, that we seem to be unable (for example) to look at the British NHS and say "this works, this doesn't, and we should do this instead" to create our own system baffles me.

I really don't think the complexity of the problem should legitimize the status quo. That means we should be working toward fixing the problem. Of course, that depends on what you identify the problem as. Furthermore, if you even identify heathcare as a "problem" in the first place.
 
Airplanes don't get made and driven off the assembly line like a Cobalt. You're being a fool. Every single plane gets the same thorough testing before it gets sent to a customer.

You people are making me nervous. You all seem to have a "good enough" attitude about one of the few legitimate reasons we have a government to begin with. For all I care the government can stop all funding of everything entirely, and I would be perfectly happy as long as they defend us citizens from international threats wealthily. I don't care if we don't need them now, and I don't care if we never need them. You never know when you will, and my own defense is not something to be skimped on, ever.

I've stated before that I don't support the "world police" policies that are going on now. Even a humble do it yourselfer can build a car in his garage if he has every tool he could ever possibly need. He'll never use 90% of them--until he needs it. And you never know when you're going to need it, because nothing ever works out exactly the way it's supposed to.

This is true, but additional raptors just aren't needed right now. We have thousands of planes.
 
I guess I look outside of the US, and I think we still have to ask ourselves, why not? Not necessarily as the most-legitimate answer, but as something that should be looked at, broken down, and perhaps considered. By my evaluations of what is at this point only being proposed in both houses of Congress, and by the President, we aren't anywhere close to the European, or even Canadian models. But why, for any reason, that we seem to be unable (for example) to look at the British NHS and say "this works, this doesn't, and we should do this instead" to create our own system baffles me.

I really don't think the complexity of the problem should legitimize the status quo. That means we should be working toward fixing the problem. Of course, that depends on what you identify the problem as. Furthermore, if you even identify heathcare as a "problem" in the first place.

Lol, are you serious? Why not? I pointed out why not.

"We" (by that, you mean congress) are unable to create our own system because that's not "our" job to do. I wouldn't trust my asshole representatives with my health anyway. Entrepreneurs ultimately find the correct models. "We" haven't found something that works because "we've" been too busy cramming the square peg into the round hole. The complexity of the problem is only as deep as the failed, incorrect solutions and proposals have compounded it. When national healthcare fails, it's everyone's problem, whereas when private healthcare or health insurance fails, it's only the board's problem.
 
Look, Obama doesn't like when huge bills are rushed through legislation...in 2004.





Obama is using Bush-style foreign policy tactics (and late term economic tactics) today on the economy and domestic issues.

What Obama brings to the White House is not Hope. It starts with an H, but it is not Hope.
 
Two words or one? :lol: Is it equine at all?

Barack's voice has also changed a lot too since that interview. He speaks with more rounded sounds now.
 
Two words or one? :lol: Is it equine at all?

Barack's voice has also changed a lot too since that interview. He speaks with more rounded sounds now.
Here's a hint: It begins with an H and ends with ypocrisy.
 
I think its entertaining (not surprising, mind you) that Obama seems to be trying to force Obamacare come hell or high water when it seems at least half the country (well, according to Fox News) doesn't want anything to do with it.
 
Hmmm, I partially agree and disagree with you. I think forcing is a little strong, and I wouldn't exactly take the Fox News polls to heart, but there is certainly enough opposition to the bill to make the "highly suggested" (and now being done) pressing of the brakes a good idea. The conservative Democrats have some good ideas, and I believe some of the liberal Republicans should be able to work with them to make some good compromises in the face of the other opposition... But that may all be unicorns and rainbows for me. Ah well, lets see what happens come August.
 
I think forcing is a little strong,
Was it him personally or the rest of the sub committee who threatened to throw the Blue Dogs out if they didn't agree to what was on the bill right now?
Regardless, other than not shutting up about Gates; he's done nothing for the past month but say that health care reform must happen now and that Congress must have it done by August.

and I wouldn't exactly take the Fox News polls to heart
Neither would I, honestly, but I've been at my grandpa's house for the past month or so during the day and all we watch is Fox News and bowling.
 
Was it him personally or the rest of the sub committee who threatened to throw the Blue Dogs out if they didn't agree to what was on the bill right now?
That was other Democrats. He has zero legal power over the sub-committee.

Regardless, other than not shutting up about Gates; he's done nothing for the past month but say that health care reform must happen now and that Congress must have it done by August.
As YSSMAN said, forcing isn't the best description. He is using the same kind of scare-tactics that Bush used in pushing his security policies (see the radio interview I posted earlier to see Pr. Obama's thoughts on that). They take one scary sounding bit of data and repeat it over and over, while ignoring anything else that goes along with it.

In this case the administration are constantly saying 14,000 people lose health care every day. If that were all to it then that means the the president believes that over 20 million more people will be without health insurance at the end of his first term. But that is not all there is to it. That number is based on jobs lost and ignores that the stimulus plan should be subsidizing COBRA plans by 65%, meaning that more people should be able to utilize COBRA and not lose their insurance. It also ignores that these people may have a job again in 3 months, sooner if Obama's stimulus does what he claims.

So, what we have is President Obama quoting statistics that do not account for his own stimulus recovery plans. This meas that he and his adminstration are either 1) ignorant, 2) don't believe in their own stimulus plan, or 3) lying.

Of course, none of this takes into account that hundreds of economists were saying that the president's stimulus plan would drag the economic situation out, not help it. So, it can be argued that if massive numbers of people are losing insurance due to job losses caused by the economy that the president himself may be indirectly responsible for making it worse, and now his plan to fix problems created by his interventionist policies is more government intervention.

What you believe will be determine by whether you are more willing to trust hundreds of economists or a politician. But either way, this is typical scare tactics that show no change has occurred in the White House.
 
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