Obama Presidency Discussion Thread

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I'd go with lying, after all, it is politicians we are dealing with here.

You could make a case for ignorant too.


And if they didn't believe in their stimulus plan, that would mean they were lying in the first place.

 

[YSSMAN]

Ignorant, is what I'd likely vote. I actually spent over an hour of my time watching the markup of the bill in the House Energy and Commerce Committee last night, and I managed to become a bit too frustrated watching them bumble over what I had assumed were otherwise understandable points of reference in the bill.

Foolkiller is right, however, in noting the scare-tactics. While I am more likely to be in favor of some of the healthcare reform currently being worked on, I don't appreciate the language that is being used by Obama, and other members of Congress, while trying to get this thing together. It is not constructive, and it does not help people make up their own mind on the situation. The scare-tactics are just as bad, if not worse, by the opposition as well.

It would be wonderful if we could take politics out of the situation, and have some pragmatic solutions being considered... But, all I get are unicorns and rainbows.

 

[Danoff]

It would be wonderful if we could take politics out of the situation, and have some pragmatic solutions being considered

I'd rather we took the situation out of politics altogether.

(ie: government should have nothing to do with healthcare)

 

[Solid Lifters]

Lucky me, I just sent out all my swastikas out for polishing... http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas.html

 

[FoolKiller]

Lucky me, I just sent out all my swastikas out for polishing... http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas.html

Wow, Nancy Pelosi is really trying hard to make out any opposition to health care as some kind of evil. Not long ago she called the insurance companies villains.

She seems to really be trying to make it out to be that those opposed to a government health care plan are evil, and now practically calling them Nazis, and that the health care plan supporters are some sort of heroic saviors.

I don't doubt that there are some plants from the GOP at some of these town hall meetings, but that cannot account for everyone.

The other question that must be raised is that if it is such a good idea, then why are they needed to campaign for it like it is some sort of election? Better yet, why were they trying to rush it through Congress? They were once again trying to push a 1000+ page bill without time for it to be read and properly addressed. So much for the pledge in the House to allow three days after a finalized, searchable copy of the bill was presented. I would also be willing to bet that the president would have, again, gone back on his promise to have all legislation he signs posted on the White House's Web site for 3 days before he signed it. A promise he has broken some 40+ times since being in office.

If it is a good idea then instead of going out on some campaign trail they should be offering full transparency.

 

[Danoff]

What really impresses me about the public health care debate is the willingness of people to deny the evidence at hand. What efforts has our government embarked upon that it has done both competently and cheaply?

Public Schools?
Military?
Social Security?
Licensing of Drivers (DMV)?
Policing our borders?
Welfare?
Collect Taxes?
Build roads?
Fight Wars?
Bail out companies?
Offer Healthcare? (yes, they already provide healthcare)
Police our neighborhoods?
Regulate Pollution?
Pass laws?

Ok, I'm tired of listing things our government is bad at. I'd start listing the things that private industry is good at, but the list goes on and on. #1 on the list, though, is healthcare. The US is a world leader in medical research and technology despite the huge regulations government has imposed. Why again are we screwing with that? So that we can get the usual government high price tag for almost no product? No thank you.

 

[Omnis]

what really impresses me about the public health care debate is the willingness of people to deny the evidence at hand. What efforts has our government embarked upon that it has done both competently and cheaply?

Public schools?
Military?
Social security?
Licensing of drivers (dmv)?
Policing our borders?
Welfare?
Collect taxes?
Build roads?
Fight wars?
Bail out companies?
Offer healthcare? (yes, they already provide healthcare)
police our neighborhoods?
Regulate pollution?
Pass laws?

Ok, i'm tired of listing things our government is bad at. I'd start listing the things that private industry is good at, but the list goes on and on. #1 on the list, though, is healthcare. The us is a world leader in medical research and technology despite the huge regulations government has imposed. Why again are we screwing with that? So that we can get the usual government high price tag for almost no product? No thank you.

+The VHA.

 

[FoolKiller]

Now, this is an interesting twist on the White House's attempt to push health care: Report people that disagree to them.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/08/gop-senator-white-house-encroaching-on-first-amendment.html

GOP Senator: White House Encroaching on First Amendment
August 05, 2009 1:33 PM

ABC News’ Rick Klein reports:

A Republican senator is calling for the White House to suspend a new project that asks members of the public to flag “fishy” claims about President Obama’s health care plans, arguing that it raises privacy concerns and will serve to chill free speech.

Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, is sending a letter to the White House today asking the president to “cease this program immediately” -- or to explain how Americans’ privacy will be protected if e-mails are forwarded to the White House as requested.

“I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed ‘fishy’ or otherwise inimical to the White House’s political interests,” Cornyn writes

“I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the White House. I suspect that you would have been leading the charge in condemning such a program -- and I would have been at your side denouncing such heavy-handed government action.”

Yesterday, White House director of new media Macon Phillips wrote a blog posting urging readers to flag questionable claims about health care proposals.

“There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”

Cornyn specifically asks whether those who quote the president’s past statements -- such as his 2003 statement that he was a “proponent” of single-payer care -- qualifies as “disinformation.” He also asks what actions the White House would take against those engaging in “fishy” speech.

I don't believe it is infringing on First Amendment rights, but I do believe that this may be seen as an act of intimidation.

Also, depending on what they do with this, they risk violating the Privacy Act of 1974, which does not allow for any records on individuals kept by an agency to be disclosed, unless it falls under certain guidelines. So, if these reported comments leave the White House and are not used for statistical or security purposes then it is a violation of the law.

Had this been done by the Bush Administration with regard to any people opposed to the war(s) there would have been massive uproar.

Of course, I may just have to send them links to every Ron Paul site as well as to the Libertarian Party Blog, the Cato Institute, and the Mises Institute. I might as well report myself while I am at it. Fortunately, I see them getting a large influx of reports like this. They'll probably be flooded by so many emails from people saying, "I would like to report myself as being opposed to the health care proposal," that they won't be able to sort out all the legitimate reports.


I also see the following possible scenario:
<RING>
Me: Hello.
White House Staffer: I am looking for Mr. ******* ******.
Me: That's me.
WHS: Do you post as, um, FoolKiller, on the Web site GTPlanet.net?
Me: Yes.
WHS: I am calling from the White House and...
<click>

 

[YSSMAN]

RE: Talking About Healthcare

I agree with your guy's basic points, but I come at it from the other side. I don't think anyone is doing any kind of service with these insane e-mails, rumors, plants at town halls, fear mongering (both sides), pushing bills and amendments, or any other situation. I think that if we could come together, have an honest discussion over the situation, and at least attempt to make some kind of agreement on basic points (access, cost, benefits, the system in general, etc), perhaps we could get somewhere. But no, we can't do that. We throw up the flags of "socialism," outright lies, and so on.

No, I don't have all the answers. But I think a nice discussion would be beneficial to all.

RE: The (E)Mail List

My understanding of the program is that the White House wants to get a heads-up on what the current chain-mail, rumor crap is all about. Basically, the drivel that my Grandmother gets from her idiot friends, which I proceed to [/facepalm] over, and attempt to give the best possible, middle-of-the-road answer.

 

[Tornado]

But no, we can't do that.

Partly because the group trying to push it through don't want to do that.

 

[Omnis]

I also see the following possible scenario:
<RING>
Me: Hello.
White House Staffer: I am looking for Mr. ******* ******.
Me: That's me.
WHS: Do you post as, um, FoolKiller, on the Web site GTPlanet.net?
Me: Yes.
WHS: I am calling from the White House and...
<click>

And then they come to your front door.

They arrest you for being a lunatic and cite your awesome garden as evidence of irrational paranoia and grounds for removal.

 

[cpp214]

As far as Obama's healthcare plan goes...

While I'm not jumping for joy at the prospect of creating another government beauracracy, I am absolutely behind the concept of universal healthcare--flawed though it may be.

To me, the bottom line is this--in America we currently have a "for-profit" healthcare industry, in addition to "for profit" health insurance companies (one of the few industrialized countries with both). Every day, these insurance companies knowingly and willfully deny coverage/treatment to people (on dubious grounds) simply to make a profit. Sometimes these disgustingly greedy decisions cost people their lives-actually if you believe some accounts, a startling number of people die every year because of decisions made by insurance companies-and not by their healthcare providers.

Millions of people are either uninsured or under-insured. Most of these people put off routine medical check-ups or don't seek care for problems that later excacerbate themselves and turn into full-blown medical emergencies/tragedies that could have been easily prevented/avoided if they had access to universal coverage and weren't worried that they couldn't afford medical attention.

Oh yeah, depending on whose statistics you believe, tens of thousands of people go bankrupt each year due to outrageous medical bills that their insurance (if they had any to begin with) won't pay.

The cost of allowing people to go uninsured and continue on with our current failed healthcare system far outweighs the undeniable costs that will be associated with creating a nationalized healthcare system in this country. In fact, even most sane people who oppose nationalized healthcare will admit that the system has/is failing, and that something needs to be done.

But what is happening? Devoid of any substantive ideas on how to improve anything--much less healthcare--the gutless, spineless maggots in the Republican Senate--along with the equally gutless "conservative" democrats, are "standing up" to President Obama and preventing him from providing national healthcare.

Great... So, that is going to be your legacy? You "stood strong" with the for-profit healthcare/insurance industry. You protected the profits of the insurance industry, that is responsible for the deaths of many of your constituents through denial of services, and which has prevented many of your constituents and their children from having access to affordable healthcare coverage.

You rail against the costs of nationalized healthcare, yet you supported GW the war-criminal, and the epic-fail that was (and still is) Operation Iraqi Freedom, and the 2 + TRILLION dollars it has cost American taxpayers. The extent of that fail alone is so vast and far-reaching that its total magnitude may not be fully appreciated until several decades from now.

To do nothing, to continue on with the status quo, for-profit healthcare system as it currently stands is INSANE. To be honest, I don't know how some of these politicians can sleep at night, knowing what a mess the system is in now and--worse than doing nothing about it--opposing a plan to actually begin fixing the problem. I mean I know the Republicans are in bed with the healthcare/insurance companies, but I guess I'm still naive enough to think that on a matter of this urgency, they would step up and do the right thing. Guess I was wrong.

By the way, what is in this for Obama and the Democrats? I mean what do opponents of this legislation see as their "angle"? What special interest group benefits from nationalized healthcare, other than the American people? We know what's in it for the Republicans--money from the healthcare/insurance companies.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

By the way, what is in this for Obama and the Democrats?

From what I can see, votes from the lower class

I mean what do opponents of this legislation see as their "angle"?

The government funded healthcare will be inefficient, especially since it will basically have no competition. How can you compete when tax payer dollars are already going in to provide the government healthcare. The only ones that will be able to afford anything better will be the upper class.

What special interest group benefits from nationalized healthcare, other than the American people?

The government and anybody they hire to handle this healthcare.

 

[FoolKiller]

Here is the main problem with the proposed health care plan and any argument in favor of it:

The argument is that our current system is flawed. I can agree. The answer to a flawed system is supposed to be allowing a government plan, using the same basis as the flawed system, to get into the mix? Government is inherently inefficient. There is no government program with a private equivalent that is more efficient. So, the goal is apparently to replace a flawed system with a government run version of that same flawed system.

It does not make sense.

The answer is to change the system, not let an even more inefficient version come in.


And by the way, having a for-profit anything guarantees greater efficiency. If you have an entity providing a service where they do not need to be concerned with profit they have zero incentive to improve or be efficient, which is the reason why most government programs are extremely wasteful.

Government programs, not needing to worry about profit, are also the only place you will find where failure means you get more money. Intelligence breakdown leading to 9/11: Create a whole new department to oversee the current programs and throw a ton of money at it. Education failing: Throw more money at it. Postal service losing business to competition: Charge more and reduce services. Veteran's hospitals turn out to be in horrible condition: Throw more money at it. Private banks failing: Government throws money at them. Auto companies failing: Government throws money at them.

In private, for profit, business if you are failing to do your job in a satisfactory way, or even just not as good as a competitor, you don't get more business. People quit using your services and you eventually change or go bankrupt. Profit ensures that you must improve in order to survive.

Government, not for profit, programs will get more money for failing. How does that create an incentive to improve, or even do a mediocre job? The only way a private business gets money for failing, is to convince the government that they are necessary, when they aren't.

Government rewards failure. Why does anyone want a system that works that way touching medical care?


And just to reiterate a point: Health care is not a right.

 

[Speedy Samurai]

It's situations like this which make me glad for Canadian/Japanese health care.

 

[Danoff]

It's situations like this which make me glad for Canadian/Japanese health care.

Ah, waiting months for your MRI, CT, etc. etc. is good then? Gotcha.

But what is happening? Devoid of any substantive ideas on how to improve anything--much less healthcare--the gutless, spineless maggots in the Republican Senate--along with the equally gutless "conservative" democrats, are "standing up" to President Obama and preventing him from providing national healthcare.

You want to know how to fix the situation. I'll give you one simple thing that would go a looooong way toward fixing our broken healthcare system - eliminate the tax advantages of getting healthcare through your employer. You want another one? Tort reform.

 

[FoolKiller]

While campaigning for the Democratic candidate for governor in Virginia the president had this to say about the economy and health care.

"I expect to be held responsible," Obama said. "But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

I agree, the people responsible should get out of the way. Unfortunately, he is unable to understand that government involvement is how we got here. Or he thinks that there is really a difference between Republican statists and Democrat statists.

The funny thing is that he does not know what literary character he sounds like, or who he was talking to when he said it.

 

[YSSMAN]

@cpp214

Hey, I want to thank you for making that post. While I am certain that you're going to get a fair bit of criticism (you did), taking the time to make that post over something what you appear to care a lot about... That is a noble task indeed. To be frank, many of the views given in this forum are right-of-center, and while I don't have any problems with it, it often takes some guts to stand up and make a worthwhile point in the face of some stiff opposition. Stick to your guns, have some decent ways to make your point, and you'll get the respect you deserve. You've earned kudos points from me, for whatever they're worth, and I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

It's situations like this which make me glad for Canadian/Japanese health care.

Just as a side-note here, would it be a good idea to create some kind of thread to hear stories from those outside the US to tell us about their healthcare situation? I feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding, and misinformation about these systems and how they work. Hell, there are a lot of Americans who don't understand how Medicare and Medicade work.

Anyway, would it be a good idea?

 

[Omnis]

I still don't know why Congress won't pass a law (or rather repeal the restriction) so that we can have interstate healthcare/insurance plans.

I'm telling you, we'd have 3 national healthcare plans within a month and medicaid would be obsolete.

 

[Swift]

I still don't know why Congress won't pass a law (or rather repeal the restriction) so that we can have interstate healthcare/insurance plans.

I'm telling you, we'd have 3 national healthcare plans within a month and medicaid would be obsolete.

That would be logical and our current government(for the last 60 years or so) doesn't do logic.

 

[Keef]

And then they come to your front door.

They arrest you for being a lunatic and cite your awesome garden as evidence of irrational paranoia and grounds for removal.

You could always shut the door on them. When they break it down, you could be waiting with your gun.

Then they can arrest him for being a lunatic.

Just as a side-note here, would it be a good idea to create some kind of thread to hear stories from those outside the US to tell us about their healthcare situation? I feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding, and misinformation about these systems and how they work. Hell, there are a lot of Americans who don't understand how Medicare and Medicade work.

Anyway, would it be a good idea?

The thread is a great idea. Understanding how Medicare and Medicaid work is a waste of time, however. Neither of them should even exist.

 

[Omnis]

It probably wouldn't be a good idea. You can look up that information for yourself if you wanted to.

 

[Solid Lifters]

http://la-gun.com/email/manning/

 

[YSSMAN]

I still don't know why Congress won't pass a law (or rather repeal the restriction) so that we can have interstate healthcare/insurance plans.

Agreed. There are a lot of strange rules and regulations that get in the way of anything constructive. Take money from the health lobby much?

 

[McLaren]

Not sure how many of ya'll have seen this.

LOS ANGELES -- A poster showing President Barack Obama as Heath Ledger's "Joker" character from "The Dark Knight" is creating a stir on the streets of Los Angeles where the image began appearing over the weekend.

The Obama-Joker poster shows President Obama with white face paint, dark eye shadow and smudged red lipstick and also has the word "socialism" printed in bold, dark letters under the image of his face.

It's unclear who created the image and who is posting it across the city. No one has taken credit so far.

Los Angeles Urban Policy Roundtable President Earl Ofari Hutchinson is calling the depiction, politically mean spirited and dangerous.

Hutchinson is challenging the group or individual that put up the poster to have the courage and decency to publicly identify themselves.

"Depicting the president as demonic and a socialist goes beyond political spoofery," says Hutchinson, "it is mean-spirited and dangerous."

"We have issued a public challenge to the person or group that put up the poster to come forth and publicly tell why they have used this offensive depiction to ridicule President Obama."

The poster has also gone viral online, crashing the website that first posted images of it and rising to the top of Google's "Today's Hot Trends" list.

Only thing I find hilarious is that the Govt. wants to know exactly who created it & why. Guess we no longer have the freedom to criticize or make fun of the President, though it was perfectly acceptable when Bush was in office.

 

[Omnis]

Leave it to Commy News Network.

 

[Eric Demory]

Not sure how many of ya'll have seen this.



HAHA! Take that Obama. This means I'm a republican. I might actually be an Independent?

 

[McLaren]

Leave it to Commy News Network.

What has CNN done wrong besides comment on it & ask people's opinions just like other sites are doing? It's not like they actually created it.

 

[Eric Demory]

Fox News is better

 

[Keef]

They didn't even bother showing anyone who thought it was a cool idea. They even mentioned that it happened to Bush and H. Clinton, but then said now that Obama has gotten the treatment it's suddenly over the line.