Obama Presidency Discussion Thread

How would you vote in the 2008 US Presidential Election?

  • Obama-Biden (Democrat)

    Votes: 67 59.3%
  • McCain-Palin (Republican)

    Votes: 18 15.9%
  • Barr-Root (Libertarian)

    Votes: 14 12.4%
  • Nader-Gonzales (Independent-Ecology Party / Peace and Freedom Party)

    Votes: 5 4.4%
  • McKinney-Clemente (Green)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Baldwin-Castle (Constitution)

    Votes: 7 6.2%
  • Gurney-? (Car & Driver)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Other...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    113
  • Poll closed .
* Point of reference: I think the ratings are unnecessary

I have to wonder where the push for ratings are coming from, particularly when Obama talked at length about more active parenting. I wonder if its a bit of a bluff to get them to self regulate, much in the same way that the ESRB deal was formed back in the day.


As for the internet deal, I agree its just as bad, but if I'm understanding the argument correctly its because of the idiots at the Pentagon that have our civil defense and other government systems resting on the civilian internet. Bad idea if those who wish to harm us know what they're doing. Live Free or Die Hard, anyone?
 
Live Free or Die Hard, anyone?
Live free.

The government already knows about electronic threats, they have for a long time, and they've gotten pretty good about dealing with it. I'd imagine the government has already done quite a bit of behind-the-scenes "regulation" and surveillance on the internet without any of us knowing. So far it doesn't seem to have gotten in the way of any information I might ever look for.

Btw, the girl in that movie was super hot.
 
* Point of reference: I think the ratings are unnecessary

I have to wonder where the push for ratings are coming from, particularly when Obama talked at length about more active parenting. I wonder if its a bit of a bluff to get them to self regulate, much in the same way that the ESRB deal was formed back in the day.
Who are they attempting to force into self regulation? The mediums it was discussing are television, video games, and wireless telephones. Television - already self-regulated. Video Games - You just mentioned the ESRB. Wireless Telephones - The app store? Mobile games are also rated by the ESRB. I'm not an iPhone user, but I don't get how non-game apps can be an issue. Maybe they are worried about Internet access or sexting, but you can't rate that.

What is there that can be self-regulated already is. This is either political posturing or a power grab. Either way it is a waste of money.

The government already knows about electronic threats, they have for a long time, and they've gotten pretty good about dealing with it. I'd imagine the government has already done quite a bit of behind-the-scenes "regulation" and surveillance on the internet without any of us knowing. So far it doesn't seem to have gotten in the way of any information I might ever look for.
You look like you just said you didn't see a problem with the proposal with the "I'm not doing anything wrong so it doesn't affect me," line. Did I read that right? If so we need to have a long talk about the loss of rights due to passivity.
 
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The government already knows about electronic threats, they have for a long time, and they've gotten pretty good about dealing with it.

Depends on who you ask. A week or two ago they did a pretty massive segment on NPR about how unprotected our electric grid is because the Government (more specifically, the Pentagon) doesn't want to spend money to protect our hard lines from EMPs (naturally or weaponized). Furthermore, the piggy-backing of the civilian internet by the Government lines.

They may know about threats, but they're still not actually doing things about it. I'd have thought we learned our lesson after 9/11. Guess not.
 
Depends on who you ask. A week or two ago they did a pretty massive segment on NPR about how unprotected our electric grid is because the Government (more specifically, the Pentagon) doesn't want to spend money to protect our hard lines from EMPs (naturally or weaponized). Furthermore, the piggy-backing of the civilian internet by the Government lines.

They may know about threats, but they're still not actually doing things about it. I'd have thought we learned our lesson after 9/11. Guess not.
It used to all be underground, and was even shown off to let the Russians know that the first strike protocol (nuke in upper atmosphere creating an EMP) would fail, but as things have gone into space with satellites and wireless everything it is increasingly hard to protect against EMP. You can't shield a wireless system. However, the main trunks of the Internet, remnants of the pre-civilian use days, are still underground and I don't think they will be at risk to EMP.

I mean, I understand the security issue, but allowing the president to take over civilian built lines and systems is still a big no. If Congress and the DOD want to worry about Cold War Era type threats (note: I am not calling them baseless) then let them go back to Cold War Era type protections.

There is no precedent for this (and yes, I know that all radio waves were locked down in WWII) and the idea would go against the goals of the founders of this country.
 
That Hitler picture does illustrate a very good point. In the end it really could be worse in terms of people running the country.
 
There is no precedent for this (and yes, I know that all radio waves were locked down in WWII) and the idea would go against the goals of the founders of this country.

I agree that its difficult, and I agree with the stance that its severely questionable in general. Personally, its difficult to think of a scenario where it would even be required. Furthermore, how difficult it would even be to lock down the system.

I'll have to talk to my friend Will, who works for Senator Levin (D-MI) and find out if he knows anything about the legislation. Methinks that most of our representatives in the House and Senate would shoot it down before it would ever get to the President.
 
You look like you just said you didn't see a problem with the proposal with the "I'm not doing anything wrong so it doesn't affect me," line. Did I read that right? If so we need to have a long talk about the loss of rights due to passivity.
Probably because I haven't yet realized what rights are involved with the internet. I don't think I've lost any rights regarding information, because when I want to look something up and can usually find it. Maybe there's more to it than the availability of information? If I knew the government was manipulating providers, content, or flat out filtering it, obviously I would have a problem with that. But I don't have a problem with the government tracking down dangerous hackers, and then working a deal with them to fight against other dangerous hackers.

I'm probably missing something, so enlighten me.
 
Probably because I haven't yet realized what rights are involved with the internet. I don't think I've lost any rights regarding information, because when I want to look something up and can usually find it. Maybe there's more to it than the availability of information? If I knew the government was manipulating providers, content, or flat out filtering it, obviously I would have a problem with that. But I don't have a problem with the government tracking down dangerous hackers, and then working a deal with them to fight against other dangerous hackers.

I'm probably missing something, so enlighten me.
In the specific bill we are discussing it is the president being allowed to shut down and taking over control of specific private Internet networks whenever he deems it to be in the interest of security. That is the digital equivalent of quartering soldiers (see Third Amendment). That is only allowed in very specific circumstances during time of war. If it is a terrorist attack or any non-war security threat without an invasion it violates that right, and is left to the discretion of the president. Since war powers are only held by Congress the president can't be allowed to just up and declare digital quarter (I may trademark this term) for whatever he deems to be a security threat.

Now, what I feel like you were saying before when you said:
I'd imagine the government has already done quite a bit of behind-the-scenes "regulation" and surveillance on the internet without any of us knowing. So far it doesn't seem to have gotten in the way of any information I might ever look for.
It sounds like you are saying that if they are monitoring you, deem you fine and move along you don't care. The "law abiding citizens shouldn't be concerned" opinion. I may be wrong, but I will go on anyway. For the case of being monitored (warrantless wiretaps anyone?) without knowing it I direct you to the Fourth Amendment.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
In other words, they cannot randomly search through your stuff without a warrant that specifically defines what they are searching for and what cause they have to believe they need to search you.

Of course, this brings us back to the "if you aren't breaking the law why do you care?" question. And that is a good one.

This brings up to the erosion of rights. Keef, I know from your comments you see it in other places. It bothered you when your father, in the middle of the night, got a ticket for failing to use his indicator. Did he harm anyone or violate their rights in any way? No. Did he break the law? Yes. Wait, if no rights are being violated how does it break the law? Because someone decided it was a good safety law and everyone who cared said, "Well, you should use your indicators anyway, so I won't mind that law."

Or smoking. Smoking bans go into effect and we hear smokers themselves say things like, "It will help me quit, so I am for it." Or trans fats bans had people say, "It will help me lose weight, so OK." (Note: We are still fat three years later).

Erosion of rights happens to do to willful neglect, or saying, "It won't effect me, so I don't care." But then another law passes, and another, and another, all using the same excuse that was used on the one you didn't care about. The smoking and then trans fats ban is an example of this. In fact, I predicted fatty foods would begin getting banned based on the public health excuse used for smoking bans. And look at what the major topic is in politics now: Public health. Imagine what happens when government runs health care.

So, today they are monitoring your online activities only looking for a terrorist connection. But then maybe next year child protection groups use the same argument to monitor for any pron or other child predator profile activity. Then you visit 4chan. Next thing you know you have a cop asking you what you are doing as you walk past a park or a school.
 
I'm just curious though, does the US actually have control over the internet? I mean the internet is something physical but there is not actual physical domain over it and it's digital space isn't owned or operated by any country.

I'm probably not explaining what I'm trying to get at really well. Basically, how can the US control something that doesn't exist as part of their country? I mean if I have a website hosted through a company in say Norway, can the US really take control of it?
 
I'm just curious though, does the US actually have control over the internet? I mean the internet is something physical but there is not actual physical domain over it and it's digital space isn't owned or operated by any country.
Ah ha! Now you are getting into what I meant when I said this:
There is no precedent for this (and yes, I know that all radio waves were locked down in WWII) and the idea would go against the goals of the founders of this country.
The FCC has claim over over-the-air frequencies, but that is it (also goes back to the rating system thing). In WWII the army was given control over the airwaves for military use (look up Philo Farnsworth to see how this royally screwed him), but the government had domain over those.

The Internet systems we use today are mainly carried over the private communications systems set up early on by AT&T and later by every phone and cable company in the country.

Of course, there is a small glitch. Installing communications systems is expensive and takes years to see a profit benefit, so the government granted tax breaks to anyone who built X amount of communications systems. AT&T, in the Ma Bell years, rarely paid any taxes. Now, where the private owners have an argument is that there was no clause for government takeover in those tax deals.

But no, the US does not have any control over the Internet. If it did, children wouldn't be able to Google up some pron within seconds.

That said, they do have the ability to regulate businesses based in the US and make online businesses abide by the same laws as brick and mortar businesses. This is why file sharing sites find places where prosecution is hard to manage to set up shop.

I'm probably not explaining what I'm trying to get at really well. Basically, how can the US control something that doesn't exist as part of their country? I mean if I have a website hosted through a company in say Norway, can the US really take control of it?
Basically, nothing in Norway, or anywhere outside the US, would be affected by this, but ISPs based in the US and serving the US would be temporarily shut down and taken over.
 
But no, the US does not have any control over the Internet. If it did, children wouldn't be able to Google up some pron within seconds.

Its the dark side of the net neutrality issue, unfortunately. I've yet to hear if this has made it out of committee in the Senate yet.
 
Its the dark side of the net neutrality issue, unfortunately.
I thought the whole idea of it was the dark side.

Keef, here is a story that lays out what can happen when erosion of rights goes bad.


Somewhere at sometime someone didn't see a problem with government intervening to protect people from themselves because "I'm not sick or crazy."


Moving on.

I am curious what people think about Obama's speech to schoolchildren this coming Tuesday. The Education Department has also added suggested curriculum to go along with it.

I agree with the guy from CATO in this article. If he is just giving a pep talk about staying in school, being responsible for your own work, etc that is fine, but he should not bring anything more into it. If he does it approaches political indoctrination, which there is too much of in schools as it is.

Where the main issue comes in is in the proposed curriculum.
This is the grades Pre K-6 plan.
This is the grades 7-12 plan.

From articles I read dated before today it looks like they changed the wording in the K-6 plan that asked ids to write a letter to themselves about what they can do to help the president, to how they can help themselves achieve their own goals.

I think it risks not allowing children, particularly the teens, to say they disagree with the president. Mainly it looks like it can either be leading students to have to agree with the president at worse, or to just be busy work to force the students to pay attention.

I will definitely keep an eye on this to see where it goes.
 
I am curious what people think about Obama's speech to schoolchildren this coming Tuesday. The Education Department has also added suggested curriculum to go along with it.

Based on what I've read, its not that big of a deal. I imagine its going to be the typical stuff, "You've gotta work hard," "You're the future of this country," "Having an education is important," etc. PolitiFact did a checkup on the speech, and as they say;

Politifact
We reviewed the study materials but didn't see any mention of controversial issues, let alone any attempt to indoctrinate students in socialism. The pre-K through 6th grade materials said the main ideas of the speech would be "citizenship, personal responsibility, civic duty." The materials for high schoolers mention "personal responsibility, goals, persistence."

*shrug*

George H.W. Bush did a "talk to the school kids" back in the day as well, and that was politicized like this too. Personally, I think its cool when the President (any of them) do things like this.
 
I think the main worry, from those not in the nutcase corner, is that he is doing it within 24 hours of a speech to the nation about health care, again, and it would be so easy for him to attempt to bring it all together.

It wouldn't be the first time agendas get indoctrinated into the schools. I remember being told to go home and tell my parents to quit smoking, conserve our very limited freshwater, quit using aerosol sprays, and to recycle as part of daily science and health curriculum in elementary school.

I would not be shocked if kids were encouraged to express their concerns about their future health care to their parents.
 
It wouldn't be the first time agendas get indoctrinated into the schools. I remember being told to go home and tell my parents to quit smoking, conserve our very limited freshwater, quit using aerosol sprays, and to recycle as part of daily science and health curriculum in elementary school.
I hated that. Thankfully I wasn't gullible enough to use all of the "advice" that I got in public school.
 
For something completely different: Is the idea of a taxpayer-funded police force one that fits under the Libertarian idea of small government? I would think it falls under the "protect the citizens" bit of the Constitution and therefore okay.
 
For something completely different: Is the idea of a taxpayer-funded police force one that fits under the Libertarian idea of small government? I would think it falls under the "protect the citizens" bit of the Constitution and therefore okay.

Certainly not a national police force. Police/Sheriffs are best maintained at the lowest levels of government possible, and they usually are. They don't need to be publicly operated though.
 
On a similar note, I've always been curious about the "well-regulated militia" thing. Does that refer to the National Guard, which is in each state and controlled by that state's governor? Police forces?
 
We have the Michigan Militia, I'm not a 100% sure what they do though or what their purpose is. Frankly they scare the hell out of me because they act like a regulated army and are populated by gun toting rednecks who think the Land Force Command is going to descend down from Ottawa and kill us all. I don't know, they probably aren't all like that but it sure seems like it.
 
Well, the Michigan Militia isn't exactly a legitimate military force. I think there are people who could argue that they are a borderline terrorist organization, and they have been watched closely by the FBI since 1994.

Americans have the right to form their own militia forces, I believe, but it is generally left to State --> Federal forces to do the hard work. Historically, its important mainly because it was not until after the Civil War that Americans generally viewed themselves as part of a single nation, and consequently, states operated their own militaries, which now make up the National Guard. In theory, those should be managed directly by the governors of their respective territories, but the President gets to wear the Commander and Chief hat, getting to call the shots. Although, there may be some kind of parliamentary procedure to the way National Guard units are called up to military service with the approval of a Governor, but I can't recall of any challenge issued by a Governor to restrict the active duty of their forces in a time of war.
 
That article says Obama is working to regain his footing in the healthcare debate. That means he was losing. And that means it's a great time to start talking even more crap about his terrible idea.
 
*Puts on Political Science Hat*

The Administration lost footing by not controlling their message, and never seeming totally committed to a single idea. Furthermore, the media has never covered the subject in a way that would allow anyone to make a well-informed decision, and it would be safe to say that because of it, we would never be able to have a legitimate discussion on policy issues that is constructive, and ultimately, helpful.

I look forward to hearing what he has to say on Wednesday.
 
I'm looking forward to seeing what he has to say tomorrow to the schoolchildren (i.e. me). It'll probably be a bunch of tripe about why you should stay in school, etc., but will he sneak in a bit of "advertising" for his healthcare plans and whatnot, as FoolKiller said earlier? I think if he does, he'll make it look like it was dropped in there by "accident". It'll give himself a way out if people pick up on it. We'll see what happens.
 
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