Obama Presidency Discussion Thread

How would you vote in the 2008 US Presidential Election?

  • Obama-Biden (Democrat)

    Votes: 67 59.3%
  • McCain-Palin (Republican)

    Votes: 18 15.9%
  • Barr-Root (Libertarian)

    Votes: 14 12.4%
  • Nader-Gonzales (Independent-Ecology Party / Peace and Freedom Party)

    Votes: 5 4.4%
  • McKinney-Clemente (Green)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Baldwin-Castle (Constitution)

    Votes: 7 6.2%
  • Gurney-? (Car & Driver)

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Other...

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    113
  • Poll closed .
Is it really that difficult to make sense of this stuff? Is it really that hard for the vast majority of Americans to pay any attention at all and soak any of this up and understand what the deal is? Do this many Americans really refuse to learn anything about the subject at all?

Part of the problem is that for the most part, people feel entirely disconnected from their government as a whole. So, as the theory goes, why would they make the investment to totally understand its function, and how it effects them on a daily basis? The best way I can describe it is thinking back to High School. Other than myself, and maybe a few other kids, no one took an active interest in our civics or government classes. It was a "chore" to know the checks and balances, furthermore, what the amendments were to the constitution. Throw in the political aspects of the way our government function, and its amazing that anyone wants to be a part of it.

The thing of it is, there are a lot of things to have fingers pointed at, and its debatable if a change in any given one would have a major effect on the way people think. I'd love to place blame on the media, who are generally looking to serve their advertisers more than their viewers/readers/listeners, and consequently the quality of content has suffered dramatically. I'd love to place blame on the involvement in local politics, but I do not know what way we can make people care about what happens to them on a daily, and otherwise immediate, basis. Americans have always been a reactionary people when it comes to policy and politics, and I don't know how we can change that.

But... Assuming that we did, Keef, it does not seem likely that everyone would draw the same conclusions as you, or I, or anyone else here for that matter. We would certainly be able to have a better discussion of policy or direction for the country, and we would certainly be able to hold our leaders more-accountable for their actions, but I would not expect the political pendulum to shift in any other way.
 
Didn't anyone learn that when you attack Somalia by helicopter you don't win? Clinton found that out really quick in 1993. I mean there is even a book, a movie, and a video game all based on how awful it was. Seems like it should be a pretty straight forward thing that special ops in an urban environment, with no defined enemy is going to end badly.

I'm disappointed with Obama not getting out of Iraq like he promised, but then again he is a politician so it's not surprising he lied about the whole thing.
Screw Al-Qaeda and their cell phone bombs, those Somalis are frickin' crazy! That country is pretty much a no-go, no matter how good your strategy is, and no matter how legit your reason is.
 
Look out folks, President Obama has just been shown to be vastly different from Candidate Obama, again, by a national newspaper.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416930475823324.html

Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus finally unveiled his health-care plan yesterday to a chorus of bipartisan jeers. The reaction is surprising given that President Obama all but endorsed the outlines of the Baucus plan last week. But the hoots are only going to grow louder as more people read what he's actually proposing.

The headline is that Mr. Baucus has dropped the unpopular "public option," but this is a political offering without much policy difference. His plan remains a public option by other means, imposing vast new national insurance regulation, huge new subsidies to pay for the higher insurance costs this regulation will require and all financed by new taxes and penalties on businesses, individuals and health-care providers. Other than that, Hippocrates, the plan does no harm.

***
The centerpiece of the Obama-Baucus plan is a decree that everyone purchase heavily regulated insurance policies or else pay a penalty. This government mandate would require huge subsidies as well as brute force to get anywhere near the goal of universal coverage. The inevitable result would be a vast increase in the government's share of U.S. health spending, forcing doctors, hospitals, insurance companies and other health providers to serve politics as well as or even over and above patients.

The plan essentially rewrites all insurance contracts, including those offered by businesses to their workers. Benefits and premiums must be tailored to federal specifications. First-dollar coverage would be mandated for many services, and cost-sharing between businesses and employees would be sharply reduced, though this is one policy that might reduce health spending by giving consumers more skin in the game. Nor would insurance be allowed to bear any relation to risk. Inevitably, costs would continue to climb.

Everyone would be forced to buy these government-approved policies, whether or not they suit their needs or budget. Families would face tax penalties as high as $3,800 a year for not complying, singles $950. As one resident of Massachusetts where Mitt Romney imposed an individual mandate in 2006 put it in a Journal story yesterday, this is like taxing the homeless for not buying a mansion.

The political irony here is rich. If liberal health-care reform is going to make people better off, why does it require "a very harsh, stiff penalty" to make everyone buy it? That's what Senator Obama called it in his Presidential campaign when he opposed the individual mandate supported by Hillary Clinton. He correctly argued then that many people were uninsured not because they didn't want coverage but because it was too expensive. The nearby mailer to Ohio primary voters gives the flavor of Mr. Obama's attacks.

And the Baucus-Obama plan will only make insurance even more expensive. Employers will be required to offer "qualified coverage" to their workers (or pay another "free rider" penalty) and workers will be required to accept it, paying for it in lower wages. The vast majority of households already confront the same tradeoff today, except Congress will now declare that there's only one right answer.

The subsidies in the Baucus plan go to people without a job-based plan and who earn under three times the federal poverty level, or about $66,000 for a family of four. Yet according to a Congressional Budget Office analysis we've seen, the plan isn't much of an improvement over the current market.

Take a family of four making $42,000 in 2016. While government would subsidize 80% of their premium and pay $1,500 to offset cost-sharing, they'd still pay $6,000 a year or 14.3% of their total income. A family making $54,000 could still pay 18.1% of their income, while an individual earning $26,500 would be on the hook for 15.5%, and one earning $32,400 for 17.3%. So lower-income workers would still be forced to devote huge portions of their salaries to expensive policies that they may not want or be able to afford.

Other Democrats want to make the subsidies even bigger, but Mr. Baucus told reporters on Monday that, "We're doing our very best to make an insurance requirement as affordable as we possibly can, recognizing that we're trying to get this bill under $900 billion total." Another way of putting this is that he is hiding the real cost of his bill by pinching pennies to meet a less politically toxic overall spending number. In that sense, the House health bill which clocked in at $1.042 trillion because it was more generous upfront was more honest, though not by much.

Like the House bill, Mr. Baucus uses 10 years of taxes to fund about seven years of spending. Some $215 billion is scrounged up by imposing a 35% excise tax on insurance companies for plans valued at more than $21,000 for families and $8,000 for individuals. This levy would merely be added to the insurers' "administrative load" and passed down to all consumers in higher prices. Ditto for the $59 billion that Mr. Baucus would raise by taxing the likes of clinical laboratories and drug and device makers.

Mr. Baucus also wants to cut $409 billion from Medicare, according to CBO, though the only money that is certain to see the budget ax is $123 billion from the Medicare Advantage program. Liberal Democrats hate Advantage because it gives 10.2 million seniors private options. The other "savings" come from supposedly automatic cuts that a future Congress is unlikely to ever approve that is, until this entitlement spending swamps the federal budget. Then the government will have no choice but to raise taxes to European welfare-state levels or impose drastic restrictions on patient care. Or, most likely, both.

***
To sum up, the Baucus-Obama plan would increase the cost of insurance and then force people to buy it, requiring subsidies. Those subsidies would be paid for by taxes that make health care and thus insurance even more expensive, requiring even more subsidies and still higher taxes. It's a recipe to ruin health care and bankrupt the country, and that's even before liberal Democrats see Mr. Baucus and raise him, and then attempt to ram it all through the Senate.
Pay attention to the bolded bits, because with this article they included this image.

ED-AK189_1manda_D_20090916123606.jpg

An Obama 2008 Campaign Mailer
 
I'm getting worried. Before I didn't think this had any chance of actually passing for all the time the government has wasted chasing it. Now I'm starting to think that it may actually pass if people don't pay attention to it.
 
I'm getting worried. Before I didn't think this had any chance of actually passing for all the time the government has wasted chasing it. Now I'm starting to think that it may actually pass if people don't pay attention to it.
I have a feeling that it will pass no matter what because they will constantly bring it up and push until they find something that will get just enough people to compromise on it.
 
We still have one more Senate bill to come down, and I think one more in the House. Knowing the legislative process, things could get messy. Committee is going to be crazy. Considering that a lot of Democrats are already throwing the bill under the bus, my hope is that this one falls out in the Senate. The progressive caucus has already said they won't vote for a bill without the Public Option, so I don't see this going very far.
 
I just sent good ol' Mike Turner, my representative in congress, a pretty hefty email with a little opinion and a lot of proof. The main feature was this super duper interesting article FK posted. It prompted me to write a letter, yes. In general I mentioned the government's role, rights erosion, crappy health care ideas, the free market, and reminded him of how jobs work in the real world. Do a good job, you get reelected. Do a bad job, you get fired.

Surely Mike, the representative from my area, doesn't want to get fired.
 
Good News, everyone! HR1207, the Audit The Fed bill, now has a supermajority in the house. 290 Co-sponsors means Barack can't veto the bill.

Now we just need to get it through the Senate.
 
Good News, everyone! HR1207, the Audit The Fed bill, now has a supermajority in the house. 290 Co-sponsors means Barack can't veto the bill.

Now we just need to get it through the Senate.
Is it alright if it sits in there until Rand makes it to office? Then it'll actually go somewhere, once we have someone who knows what they're talking about.

Having a Paul in both houses is going to be awesome, btw.
 
Good News, everyone! HR1207, the Audit The Fed bill, now has a supermajority in the house. 290 Co-sponsors means Barack can't veto the bill.

Now we just need to get it through the Senate.

I was totally going to say that. Supermajority is like the coolest word evar.
 
I just read about the whole Obama/NY Governor thing. Wow. I understand Obama's want to keep the zero-percent-approval-rating Patterson from actually running for office for the sake of the Democrats in general, but its not as if Democrats in any New York office up for reelection aren't going to be thrown out anyways. There's also the whole "mind you own business" angle.
 
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So, what is Baucus doing?

First:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...s-hearing-health-insurance-company-gag-order/

House Republicans on Thursday called for a hearing to examine the Obama administration's decision to probe a major insurance company, at the behest of Sen. Max Baucus, over a mailer to customers about health care legislation -- a move they call a politically motivated "gag order" on critics of the Democratic plan.

Republican criticism has swelled since the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services launched a probe into Humana, at the request of Baucus, D-Mont., over a mailer Baucus claimed misled seniors about proposed changes to Medicare.

Humana, one of the largest private carriers serving seniors under the Medicare Advantage program, focused its mailer on the potential for cuts to the service, which were being debated in the Finance Committee on Thursday.

Republicans say the administration was essentially punishing Humana for questioning the plan and firing a warning shot at any other companies that might be thinking of doing the same. The Department of Health and Human Services on Monday not only targeted Humana, but sent out a broad directive to all Medicare Advantage participants, telling them to "immediately discontinue all such mailings" and remove any such material from their Web sites.

Robert Zirkelbach, spokesman for America's Health Insurance Plans, said the order went out to about 200 companies Monday night, just as the Senate Finance Committee was about to start debate on its version of health care reform.

"This is an effort to stifle any dissent," he said.

"They are silencing opposition to the president's Medicare cuts," said Sage Eastman, spokesman for Rep. Dave Camp, ranking Republican on the House Ways and Means Committee.

Camp and the other minority members of the House Ways and Means Committee wrote a letter Thursday to Chairman Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., urging a hearing in order to "investigate the unusual and potentially politically motivated decision by CMS to eliminate the flow of factual information from private health plans to their enrollees."

"While these programs need to be made more efficient, if the proposed funding cut levels become law, millions of seniors and disabled individuals could lose many of the important benefits and services that make Medicare Advantage health plans so valuable," it said.

It urged seniors to sign up with Humana for regular updates on the legislation and encouraged them to contact their lawmakers in Washington.

Humana was expressing concern about proposals to cut Medicare and Medicaid spending by about $500 billion over 10 years -- including payments to Medicare Advantage plans by about $125 billion.

Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf on Thursday agreed that seniors in the Medicare Advantage plans could see reduced benefits under Baucus' legislation.

But Baucus said the proposed bill would not cut benefits.

"I'm not going to let insurance company profits stand in the way of improving Medicare for seniors," he said in a statement, calling efforts to mislead seniors "wholly unacceptable."

Democrats continued to assert that the company had made a false claim and that Republicans were again demonstrating their affinity for the insurance industry.

Baucus said the mailer could be a violation of federal regulations. However, Republicans responded with Clinton administration guidance that prohibiting such information would violate basic freedom of speech and other constitutional rights of the Medicare beneficiary as a citizen.

AARP, which also helps administer Medicare plans in conjunction with United Healthcare, has weighed in on that part of the health care debate as well -- only on the other side.

The AARP continues to feature ads on an affiliated Web site defending the Medicare changes. One ad blasts critics for spreading "myths and scare tactics," and claims the reforms will not "hurt" Medicare but "actually strengthen it by eliminating billions of dollars in waste and lowering drug prices." Another AARP article declares, "Controlling the rising costs of Medicare doesn't mean cutting benefits."

Eastman said AARP is not being held to the same standard.

"If you're going to silence the critics you need to silence the proponents too," he said. "This clearly smacks of politics."

A representative with the AARP could not be reached for comment.
Making legal threats against your opponents while ignoring the same activities from your supporters? I understand that there is a question as to the impartiality of a group that has financial ties to the programs that will be changed, but that is even more reason to stop all sides, not just the ones that disagree.

Of course, maybe it sounds like I might be defending the evil, rich Humana corporation, but Baucus is similarly acting out in his own committee, hurrying others while they are speaking.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9ATR0I80&show_article=1
WASHINGTON (AP) - Tempers are flaring as the Senate Finance Committee starts its third day of exhaustive deliberations on a sweeping overhaul of the health care system.
Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona indignantly raised his voice after committee Chairman Max Baucus of Montana urged him to hurry up and finish a point. An outwardly irritated Kyl told Baucus he was not delaying, but was instead trying to make an extremely important point about flaws in the legislation. Baucus shot back that while Kyl's point might be important, he also was holding up the panel's work.

Kyl was speaking in favor of a GOP amendment that could have prevented the government from implementing the bill—even if it's passed and signed into law.

I wish I had more information on this second story, because it is important to know if Baucus was just enforcing a time rule or if he spoke completely out of turn.

All I am sure of is that twice in the same day I have run across stories about Senator Baucus appearing to stifle opposition speech to the bill he wrote and the president backed.

What really intrigues me is; how did he get elected in Montana? And will he get re-elected after all of this?
 
Trumping up a federal investigation on a private company for circulating a mailer is pretty heavy handed - especially while you ignore other companies for circulating information that you approve of.

Obama should be encouraging a national discussion on the topic - not trying to silence anyone who disagrees. It's a clear abuse of power.
 
Not to mention the whole "we support transparency in government but we can't wait 72 hours for you to actually look at what we're legislating" shtick.
 
Typically, you can look at the legislation online. For what's in Committee, however, I do not know if that is available right now. Although, I do not know many people who are interested in reading 1000+ pages on any given topic, all written in legal speak, that even those who study it can't understand it. Big problem, I agree. Problem is, its also getting political, on both sides. The Democrats want to drive it home, without having all of the material available all the time. The Republicans want to delay it, using the demand to review as a way to kill the forward movement for legislation.
 
Typically, you can look at the legislation online.
What Duke is referring to is that with the stimulus bill the House had voted to agree that no vote will go forward without the final version of the bill being available in both a physical and digital, searchable text version. All that was provided was a PDF scanned in as an image (not searchable) at about midnight with the vote held less than 12 hours later. Since the vote was promise, not a regulation, the result of breaking it was just to upset the handful that were paying attention and deflect their accusations by accusing them of just being greedy and not caring about all those people without jobs.

For what's in Committee, however, I do not know if that is available right now.
You can find it, but as it is in Committee it is constantly changing and anything you will find is immediately an old draft. I have an HTML version of the original House health care bill, but since Baucus has his new proposal it is just wasted server space now.

Although, I do not know many people who are interested in reading 1000+ pages on any given topic, all written in legal speak, that even those who study it can't understand it.
Which is why the stimulus was supposed to be in a searchable format. You don't have to read through all 1000+ pages of legal speak, you can search and find the sections that actually address specific issues.

Big problem, I agree. Problem is, its also getting political, on both sides. The Democrats want to drive it home, without having all of the material available all the time. The Republicans want to delay it, using the demand to review as a way to kill the forward movement for legislation.
The one question Democrats should answer is: If it is so important why did they attempt to rush it, especially in light of the Stimulus' failure to do what they promised?

Even if I agreed with the Democrats' plan I would want them to slow down. I heard one tea party commenter put it in a good perspective: The president spent months trying to decide on a dog, but he wanted health care changes for 300 million people to be decided on in two weeks.
 
Not to mention the whole "we support transparency in government but we can't wait 72 hours for you to actually look at what we're legislating" shtick.

You say that like you almost surprised Duke. :dopey:
 
Even if I agreed with the Democrats' plan I would want them to slow down. I heard one tea party commenter put it in a good perspective: The president spent months trying to decide on a dog, but he wanted health care changes for 300 million people to be decided on in two weeks.
Wow, I wish a reporter or commentator would pose a question to him like that.
 
The one question Democrats should answer is: If it is so important why did they attempt to rush it, especially in light of the Stimulus' failure to do what they promised?

I agree with you. I'd rather have it done right than not done at all, and they are walking a very thin line with it. Gov. Dean loves to point out that while it would be wonderful to have the bills get passed, without a Public Option, it would likely be disastrous for the Democrats, as people end up getting screwed, and its $60 BN in the pockets of the insurance companies.

I can't see the Finance bill lasting, or many of its "compromises" making it into Committee against the other five bills, which all include a Public Option if I recall.
 
I'd rather have it not done at all when the way to do it right is to not do it.
 
Here's a question, when it comes to having government run health care, why don't we let the people vote on it? The US is supposed to be a democracy after all that would leave the decision up to the people, rather then government officials who don't really care.
 
Here's a question, when it comes to having government run health care, why don't we let the people vote on it? The US is supposed to be a democracy after all that would leave the decision up to the people, rather then government officials who don't really care.
Because 255 million out of 300 million people have health care, according to Obama's stats. It is likely that demographics show those with long standing jobs and health care are more likely to vote (I am guessing here), so it would likely have little support.

Plus, as we can see it loses favor in the polls over time. The administration definitely did not want to let this go on until Novemeber, possibly next November.

And of course there are way too many people that would show up to vote based on disinformation.

There is also some inane idea that since Congress is paid to read these bills before voting that they won't be suckered into disinformation. Of course, they don't read them and just tow the party line.
 
I don't know, democracy just doesn't seem hard. If you have something that is split among people, let the people vote for it. Afterall I mean we are the ones being affected by it.

It also doesn't seem like it should be a big deal just to lay everything out and be simple about it.

I know I would vote "no" on this version of government ran health care, but I do believe it can work, it just needs a lot more time and a lot more examination.
 
I don't know, democracy just doesn't seem hard. If you have something that is split among people, let the people vote for it. Afterall I mean we are the ones being affected by it.

So you want us to put an entitlement program that benefits 75% of the population at the great expense of 25% of the population to a vote? The majority is going to screw over the minority every time. (see sig)

This is one reason we have a republic rather than a democracy. And a limited republic at that. Limited by a document that says that everything this administration is proposing is out of bounds for what the government is allowed to do.
 
I don't know, democracy just doesn't seem hard. If you have something that is split among people, let the people vote for it. Afterall I mean we are the ones being affected by it.
Expecting politicians to put things to a vote that they know will get voted down is just silly. Think about how many regulations would never have passed if it was put to a public vote.

Public votes have two inherent problems: 1) The issue Danoff brings up, that the majority screws the minority. For an example, look at the gay marriage issue. A majority of straight people voted to violate the economic and legal rights of a group when their own rights would have been unaffected if it were allowed.

2) Politicians will never get what they want. If taken to a vote there would have been no bank bailout, no stimulus, and health care would look completely different. Heck, the stimulus wouldn't even be coming up until this coming November. Waiting that long would just show that the government isn't needed to keep things afloat.

So, both small government and statist types have issues with pure public votes.
 
If they know it would get voted down then why even try to push the agenda in the first place? It's obvious that people are going to be unhappy with it. Like I said it shouldn't be complicated but for whatever reason it ends up being way more complex then it needs to be.

And if politicians are always wrong then why should we even bother to vote for them? Any of them. Or vote for anything for that matter

To me it just seems like the whole system is screwed up and in the end the average person gets boned.
 
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