Observations on suspension settings

[Highlandor]

PD just has to listen their customers.

Simple as that

100% agree..

Shame no-one at Poyphony understands this - where is the most wanted 'improvement / addition' etc, whatever you want to call it:

Being able to save the game during a 24hr A spec race. Utterly ridiculous that this was never in from the start.

What do we get instead, race suits and helmets. Still think Polyphony listen to us, er....NO CHANCE. Look at the ride height issue for one, how on earth has Polyphony not recognised, acknowledged or rectified this, and look at the problems it's caused. Polyphony do what they want, if it just so happens to coincide with something the 'punters' are asking, well then that's all it is, a coincidence.

Considering just how many faults and bugs were in the game upon release, it's only a matter of time before one their planned fixes just so happens to coincide with what the customers are asking.

Still think this isn't the case, I take it you haven't played GT5 online then. Argueably, the WORST online console game for connectivity, even games on the PS2 had better connection online than GT5 on the PS3. So I don't agree that they listen to us, LAUGH at us yes, because we're still loyal to the brand when they screwed us sideways, but listening to us, nope, not a chance.

That's just the typical Marketing and PR strategy any company would employ in this situation, actions speaks louder than words, Polyphony's actions do not match their words.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I for one am glad they do not fix the backwards ride height glitch. Odds are they won't be able to fix it with a complete, mirror image reversal, meaning an old -10/-5 setting would be a -5/-10 to make the same car handle the same way. At best, if they do get it right, you'll have to go in and manually change every car in your garage without equal ride height. At worst, they'll screw it up so the ride height operates slightly differently and you'll have to retune every car in your garage with unequal ride heights.

Leave it the way it is, fix it in GT6. What would be most helpful, is a statement to all GT5 users, acknowledging the backwards ride height glitch, so that anyone out there tuning a car according to real world principles and not getting the results they want (me before I found this thread) doesn't waste their time. A few months ago would have been nice, instead it's been completely ignored by PD.

 

[Highlandor]

Leave it the way it is, fix it in GT6. What would be most helpful, is a statement to all GT5 users, acknowledging the backwards ride height glitch, A few months ago would have been nice, instead it's been completely ignored by PD.

Hmm, if Polyphony still have half a braincell left they'll rebuild gran turismo altogether for GT6, but who knows.

That's the way of the world, very few comapnies will admit specific faults (either with them or in their products), normally you get the same regergetated 'apology' that they all use when something goes wrong.

Exactly, Polyphony have ignored so much and have given us updates to fix $$ and ££ glithches, gifting 1M+ cr cars and now we've got race suits and helmets.

The worst thing of all is that they have a multitude of quality feedback about their products at their fingertips (all the GT websites on the 'net). Other companies have to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of ££'s for research projects, and wait maybe 3-6 months for the results, all Polyphony have to do is switch on a PC with the 'net on it.

I used to manage research, competitor analysis and mystery shopper projects for blue chip companies, I know how much these cost and how long they take, Polyphony are in such a privaliged position it's unbelievable - yet they simply just don't seem to bother or care.

That speaks volumes about the people who are in charge of GT and certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

 

[Starfirebird]

I used to tune a lot on FM2 and FM3 and tried tuning things like real life,but it just didn't seem to work right and i just started to experiment with a car doing the backwards theory.


My test car was a Toyota Trueno.Used car of course.

At first i ran the suspension like you should.This is off the top of my head and i think it's how i set-up the suspension.

ride height - -25,-35
Springs - 13.5,9.5
Dampers - 9,6 6,4
Sway bars - 4,2

Car seemed to lose the rear end real easy online while testing.So it basically had some crazy oversteer.


2nd test - reversed

ride height - -35,-25
Springs - 10.0,13.5
Dampers - 6,9 4,6
Sway bars - 2,4

Car had understeer and had that understeer into snap oversteer tendancy online.Car was still .400 faster than the 1st set-up.

3rd set-up
ride height - -35,-25
Springs - 10.0,13.5
Dampers - 9,6 6,4
Sway Bars - 4,2

As you can see on the 3rd set-up i set my dampers and sway bars back to what i had in the 1st set-up and left the suspension and ride height reversed.I ran much more consistent laptimes and beat the 2nd set-up by .300 of a second.So in total this set-up is around .800 of a second faster than the first.

Now what i'm about to say isn't fact it's just how i feel what's going on.The suspension and Ride height is reversed and the Dampers and Sway bars are where they should be.I've tested many cars and find this is true for me.

Maybe the Dampers and Sway bars are like that too,but so far i've yet to find the evidence.For me that is.(trying to keep this as unfactual as possible)

This is my first post in this topic,been a long time reader.So if anyone wants to bounce some ideas around i'll be glad to bite.👍

 

[Highlandor]

I used to tune a lot on FM2 and FM3 and tried tuning things like real life,but it just didn't seem to work right and i just started to experiment with a car doing the backwards theory.


My test car was a Toyota Trueno.Used car of course.

At first i ran the suspension like you should.This is off the top of my head and i think it's how i set-up the suspension.

ride height - -25,-35
Springs - 13.5,9.5
Dampers - 9,6 6,4
Sway bars - 4,2

Car seemed to lose the rear end real easy online while testing.So it basically had some crazy oversteer.


2nd test - reversed

ride height - -35,-25
Springs - 10.0,13.5
Dampers - 6,9 4,6
Sway bars - 2,4

Car had understeer and had that understeer into snap oversteer tendancy online.Car was still .400 faster than the 1st set-up.

3rd set-up
ride height - -35,-25
Springs - 10.0,13.5
Dampers - 9,6 6,4
Sway Bars - 4,2

First two setups your springs, dampers and roll bars 'relationship' are wrong, then you set them right in the last setup, nothing to do with reverse theories, just matching roll bars to springs stiffness - that's all.

That's why car felt best at last setup, as you got it more 'right' than in first 2...

 

[Starfirebird]

First two setups your springs, dampers and roll bars 'relationship' are wrong, then you set them right in the last setup, nothing to do with reverse theories, just matching roll bars to dampers - that's all.

That's why car felt best at last setup, you got it more 'right' than in first 2...

So i was nowhere near the whole reverse thing?

 

[Highlandor]

So i was nowhere near the whole reverse thing?

No one is - it's like the Golden Egg, pulling the sword out of a stone, flying pigs...etc etc (get the picture).. It's a myth.

The only 'reverse' thing is the effects of the ride height, that's it.

However, offline phyics are so screwed, you can tune a car backwards, upside down and inside out - it'll all 'work'' in one way or another.

Start tuning online for decent race distances and you'll soon see what really works and what doesn't.

There's far more consistency about tuning online than offline..

 

[Starfirebird]

No one is - it's like the Golden Egg, pulling the sword out of a stone, flying pigs...etc etc (get the picture).. It's a myth.

The only 'reverse' thing is the effects of the ride height, that's it.

However, offline phyics are so screwed, you can tune a car backwards, upside down and inside out - it'll all 'work'' in one way or another.

Start tuning online for decent race distances and you'll soon see what really works and what doesn't.

There's far more consistency about tuning online than offline..

Flying pigs would be cool.

Back on topic.I've noticed that tuning for online is much more consistent and not messed up like offline.

So basically what i did was the correct way to go about things then?That's good to know as i've been wanting to get my buddy to test my car out,but i think he had labor day celebrations.

 

[Highlandor]

Flying pigs would be cool.

Back on topic.I've noticed that tuning for online is much more consistent and not messed up like offline.

So basically what i did was the correct way to go about things then?That's good to know as i've been wanting to get my buddy to test my car out,but i think he had labor day celebrations.

Sort of, in a way - the car was oversteering, a quick fix for this is jacking up the rear end, but there's other ways of getting rear stability too.

The last setup was best because the rear was jacked up and you had the roll bars matched to the springs stiffness - this is confirmed by you driving the car and it feeling better and doing better lap times than on the previous setups.

Stiff springs and dampers = soft(er) roll bars
Soft springs and dampers = hard(er) roll bars

There's alot more to things than that, but that's not a bad start.

You haven't quoted toe, camber, power, weight, tyres, LSD - so it's pretty difficult to say anything conclusive, but those things I pointed out defiantely shout WRONG - need to change, and you did, and it worked, because that's HOW it works online, usually, for most cars.

 

[Starfirebird]

Sort of, in a way - the car was oversteering, a quick fix for this is jacking up the rear end, but there's other ways of getting rear stability too.

The last setup was best because the rear was jacked up and you had the roll bars matched to the springs stiffness - this is confirmed by you driving the car and it feeling better and doing better lap times than on the previous setups.

Stiff springs and dampers = soft(er) roll bars
Soft springs and dampers = hard(er) roll bars

There's alot more to things than that, but that's not a bad start.

You haven't quoted toe, camber, power, weight, tyres, LSD - so it's pretty difficult to say anything conclusive, but those things I pointed out defiantely shout WRONG - need to change, and you did, and it worked, because that's HOW it works online, usually, for most cars.

Well heck that's awesome.

My newer suspension set-ups are like the last one.They may not be RKM material but they handle pretty consistently for online.

You have just rekindled my suspension tuning mojo a bit with your comments.I've been having troubles with my tuning,until i tried this new thing.

Thanks man.👍

 

[CSLACR]

Back on topic.I've noticed that tuning for online is much more consistent and not messed up like offline.

So you haven't encountered more or less grip based on what room you were in, or what you were doing? (free run, race, lounge)

 

[Starfirebird]

So you haven't encountered more or less grip based on what room you were in, or what you were doing? (free run, race, lounge)

I was doing lounge,or free run i guess you could say.Well i was in my lounge and i selected drive.

I was trying to see what this reverse tuning was all about,but what happened was i actually encountered the correct way to tune for online.

 

[CSLACR]

I was doing lounge,or free run i guess you could say.Well i was in my lounge and i selected drive.

I was trying to see what this reverse tuning was all about,but what happened was i actually encountered the correct way to tune for online.

I've seen no difference between the two, just that the bias for over-steer is more abundant online, which results in closer to proper specs, giving the appearance of possibly"better" physics, though I find the online physics a simplified version of offline for bandwidth/connection issues.

So no, I think changes still have the same effects, they're just more noticeable online because of the heavy rotation effect there.

 

[Highlandor]

I've seen no difference between the two, just that the bias for over-steer is more abundant online, which results in closer to proper specs, giving the appearance of possibly"better" physics, though I find the online physics a simplified version of offline for bandwidth/connection issues.

So no, I think changes still have the same effects, they're just more noticeable online because of the heavy rotation effect there.

How come some of the tunes for the offline shootouts don't work online for some very stable and easy to control cars, like the Audi R8 4.2 that Priaiano said was undrivable online in the 525pp Laguna tune he created for it originally??

At 525pp the R8 4.2 is hardly modified at all, it's one of the best balanced, stable and handling cars at that pp (aswell as hgiher pp's) online. To make it 'undriveable' online but great offline shows there's alot more to this than what people think.

You can run + toe, - toe, all kinds of spring, damper, camber etc configerations offline and come up with a fast car, but try doing that for a variety of races online and see where that get's you.

Some changes have the same affect, but not all - the fact that tyre wear is not even mentioned here shows a real lack of understanding. I was racing in random lobbies tonight, some of the guys in there couldn't believe I was finishing races with virtually no wear on my tyres when their tyres were shot, in a car known to be slower than the 'top cars' they were driving. I said 'double the laps' and they all freaked. Yet, they we're driving pretty consistently, not crashing, spinning, raming or 'cutting', they just didn't know how to get the best out of their tyres, they only thought they had.

PP racing has a few 'tricks' to it too, not just tyre wear - it's a whole new world tuning online, especially if you're doing races of different lengths, especially longer races which test the 'life' on the tyres to their maximum.

The only time this doesn't apply is if you happen to tune your car offline in a way that suits online, but considering how many people in random lobbies or online race series struggle, or are 'slow', or guys from the offline shootouts who can't drive their cars online, - I think that proves it's not as easy or straightforward as what some people make out.

If that doesn't, then consider how come so many lobbies have driving aids switched on - look at how many rooms there are with all aids off, compared to on - how come so many people (nearly 10 months from game release) still haven't 'worked it (online tuning) out'??

Look at Prologue, things were alot more even after 10 months, whereas this GT there's still large differences. What was one of the bigget changes from Prologue - tyre wear and tyre 'heat', especially overheating.

If it was as easy as your making it out to be the GT5 online scene wouldn't be like it is at the moment, generally, for so many users of it, with such big differences between those who know and those who don't.

 

[CSLACR]

You've missed my point.
My point is I see no difference in the suspension effects between the two.

Just curious, why would I bring up tire wear? And why do you?
I'm talking about the effects of different settings, and how they correspond with one another, how they effect tire wear is included for the adjustments that affect tire wear.

If moving x 3 clicks to the left makes a difference online, it also makes that same difference offline, but the difference is magnified online.

I tune with exactly the same principles online as offline, and I've had successful tunes for both, the difference is that the online tunes are geared towards what would under-steer offline.
But there's a divisional barrier between tuning preferences, people faster than me go for more over-steer than I do, people at my speed are usually around the same as me, and slower drivers will run progressively more under-steering tunes. Just a general trend, there are those that don't fit into any category.

 

[wolfzkillz]

Any one got any NASCAR suspension info?

 

[saidaouita]

Had to refill the coffee part way through this topic. Never made it to the last page.

Man.....talk about conspiracy theories. haha...kiddin'

If the setting really are backwards and/or the wrong way around in the menu, whatever.....what about all the tuner guides?
It would be interesting to see a tuner compare track times using each theory of settings- +/- ride heights front/rear.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I have been doing these kind of set ups for a while. They especially work on front wheel drive cars but can also work well on all cars to improve turnin. Doing these freaky set ups can mean the difference between winning and loosing.

 

[Starfirebird]

I've seen no difference between the two, just that the bias for over-steer is more abundant online, which results in closer to proper specs, giving the appearance of possibly"better" physics, though I find the online physics a simplified version of offline for bandwidth/connection issues.

So no, I think changes still have the same effects, they're just more noticeable online because of the heavy rotation effect there.

It was a while back,but i was testing and tuning a Toyota T86(i think that is what it is called).The car ran great offline,but when i went online the car oversteered so bad i could not control it.

This was before i knew how much different online was than offline.

I think it's a lot easier to feel the difference in your suspension tuning online.Offline you don't have that exact feel.Which i have only begun to learn a bit more about.(Yes Highlander i am guilty of never tuning online until now and i've had the game since release date )

 

[CSLACR]

It was a while back,but i was testing and tuning a Toyota T86(i think that is what it is called).The car ran great offline,but when i went online the car oversteered so bad i could not control it.

This was before i knew how much different online was than offline.

I think it's a lot easier to feel the difference in your suspension tuning online.Offline you don't have that exact feel.Which i have only begun to learn a bit more about.(Yes Highlander i am guilty of never tuning online until now and i've had the game since release date )

I agree, I'm just listing what I think is the "why".

Because offline under-steer is more prevalent, you need more drastic changes to achieve the golden "neutral", where online, many cars are fairly close to neutral with minimal modification.
And what cures under or over steer offline, also cures it online, you just don't need as much of it, be it camber, ride height, spring/damper settings, the whole lot of them stay the same in effect, but online physics have a higher "rotational" effect then offline, so you need less.

 

[Highlandor]

Because offline under-steer is more prevalent, you need more drastic changes to achieve the golden "neutral", where online, many cars are fairly close to neutral with minimal modification.

This is my whole point and what people just don't seem to understand - the majority of offline racing is done with cars that are 'tuned' or need 'setting up'.

Yes, there are some shuffle lobbies, some recommended cars only lobbies (but these are getting less because people are getting so bored of the same cars being the recommended list since release) and there are some 'non-tuning' series on various websites.

But, the rest, that requires tuning, and if you don't understand what tuning online works and what doesn't, then you're going to be at a serious disadvantage.

Even if you have a rough idea, someone who can 'nail' a tune will be far faster and have better tyres.

Try racing with default setups from custom suspension and LSD's, you'll either be going backwards faster than forwards or your tyres will be gone way before the end of the race.

Which leads as to why so many online lobbies have such short races, they don't know how to balance their tyres to grip levels, so instead, they just make the races shorter rather than learning how to set their cars up to last for longer distances.

A car might feel good for a few laps with an offline setup, but more and more 'longer races' are appearing in open lobbies, more and more 'lower grip tyre' open lobbies are appearing. I've seen so many guys coming into race series or events and just not being able to cope with just a reasonable race distance.

It's a whole new world when you're racing online. It's no where near as simple as just a little 'tweak' here and there for all your cars, some cars will come seriously unstuck online. You might get lucky and have one, two or a few cars that are bang on the money and can then migrate from offline to online without a problem, regardless of race distance, but for an entire garage?? Only the 'best' tuners are capable of this.

Look at what's going to happen in the future, more people will be completing A / B spec, more will be completing their garages - what's left, going online. Online races are changing, there's far more diversity now than 6-8 months ago. Different cars react differently online, the sooner people 'prepare' themselves for this then the better position they will be in.

The later people leave it, the more disadvantaged people are going to be.

But, this is hard to undertsand unless you've been racing a variety of different variables in different lobbies for the past 6+ months and you can now 'see' the difference in online racing, compared to say 6-8 months ago.

I speak to alot of different people from various websites and series, alot of them agree about the changes happening in the online scene and the need, and sometimes difficulty, to be prepared for this.

 

[CyKosis1973]

The later people leave it, the more disadvantaged people are going to be.

I speak to alot of different people from various websites and series, alot of them agree about the changes happening in the online scene and the need, and sometimes difficulty, to be prepared for this.

I love the mysticism. I'm torn between The Matracks and 28 Laps Later. Seriously man, what is this?? The Second Coming?? The Zombie Apocalypse??

Stop trying to tell people how to play their video games. If you've got some observations to make on suspension, make them. Otherwise, jog on...

{Cy}

 

[CSLACR]

This is my whole point and what people just don't seem to understand - the majority of offline racing is done with cars that are 'tuned' or need 'setting up'.

Yes, there are some shuffle lobbies, some recommended cars only lobbies (but these are getting less because people are getting so bored of the same cars being the recommended list since release) and there are some 'non-tuning' series on various websites.

But, the rest, that requires tuning, and if you don't understand what tuning online works and what doesn't, then you're going to be at a serious disadvantage.

Even if you have a rough idea, someone who can 'nail' a tune will be far faster and have better tyres.

Try racing with default setups from custom suspension and LSD's, you'll either be going backwards faster than forwards or your tyres will be gone way before the end of the race.

Which leads as to why so many online lobbies have such short races, they don't know how to balance their tyres to grip levels, so instead, they just make the races shorter rather than learning how to set their cars up to last for longer distances.

A car might feel good for a few laps with an offline setup, but more and more 'longer races' are appearing in open lobbies, more and more 'lower grip tyre' open lobbies are appearing. I've seen so many guys coming into race series or events and just not being able to cope with just a reasonable race distance.

It's a whole new world when you're racing online. It's no where near as simple as just a little 'tweak' here and there for all your cars, some cars will come seriously unstuck online. You might get lucky and have one, two or a few cars that are bang on the money and can then migrate from offline to online without a problem, regardless of race distance, but for an entire garage?? Only the 'best' tuners are capable of this.

Look at what's going to happen in the future, more people will be completing A / B spec, more will be completing their garages - what's left, going online. Online races are changing, there's far more diversity now than 6-8 months ago. Different cars react differently online, the sooner people 'prepare' themselves for this then the better position they will be in.

The later people leave it, the more disadvantaged people are going to be.

But, this is hard to undertsand unless you've been racing a variety of different variables in different lobbies for the past 6+ months and you can now 'see' the difference in online racing, compared to say 6-8 months ago.

I speak to alot of different people from various websites and series, alot of them agree about the changes happening in the online scene and the need, and sometimes difficulty, to be prepared for this.

It would seem you are under the impression I've yet to race online for longer races with tire wear?
The only difference is, I find it easy to tune for tire wear/lap times at the same time, you believe it is complex.

 

[chuyler1]

Short races online aren't due to failed tunes...they are due to the imbalance of performance points and power/weight restrictions. You can usually find out in 10 minutes of racing whether a car/tune/driver combo is going to win or not....or you'll know its going to come down to the last lap if cars are even. You can tune some cars to compete with others, but you've got to be a good tuner, and a great driver to overcome a car's deficiencies. And if you fail at it, why bother racing another 30 minutes when you are clearly losing 1-2 seconds per lap. If the game had a flagging system for cautions and restarts, variable track temps, accidental blowouts...that'd be another story.

A good way to find races where tuning is less important, is to only join comfort soft tire rooms. Most cars in the game come with CS or SH tires. The tune can help you, but more often than not it doesn't really make much difference. A good driver who is soft on the gas and brake can compete with better tuners. You'll still come across cars that are down on power, but there is more time to be made in consistent driving than on any other tire compound. Furthermore, whacky suspension settings like maxing out your springs and camber simply won't work. You need a certain amount of body roll to get the tires to stick. ...and every driver is going to spin the tires at least once in a CS room...so if you are patient, you can't snag opportunities.

 

[bigberry]

Due to PDs servers being down for maintenance , I had to tune a car offline. Its an FF and I was trying to dial out understeer and wasnt satisfied.

Once I got back into my lounge the car felt great it even had a little oversteer. In the race series im in fuel/tyre wear are off, but still the cars feel very different.

 

[CSLACR]

Due to PDs servers being down for maintenance , I had to tune a car offline. Its an FF and I was trying to dial out understeer and wasnt satisfied.

Once I got back into my lounge the car felt great it even had a little oversteer. In the race series im in fuel/tyre wear are off, but still the cars feel very different.

Yes, Because PD uses offline physics for all competitions finals I have to assume offline are the "proper" physics, and online can easily be explained by a more simplistic physics engine for bandwidth purposes. That's what the evidence points at, and my experiences for both, and individual tuning adjustements, and the changes they make in all regards is the same online, it's the online physics engine that makes everything seem different.

 

[NCRthree]

I've been done with as much of A-Spec that interested me for 5 months now. Never did any Endurance of FGT. The only offline for me are the Seasonals or a Time Trial or two.

So the only tunes I need are strictly online. Even before I got into online there didn't seem to be that strong of a need for special tuning in any A-Spec events. Slap on some basic mods as needed and that was that.

I guess I don't really understand why tuners tune offline when cars can be tested in their own private online lobbies. I know there are Internet connection inconsistencies that make it hard to have a solid baseline for track conditions and realize there is no EZ button for that issue.

This is based on my assumption that aside from GTP Events and Tuner Shootouts, isn't the majority of competitive racing done online now?

 

[CSLACR]

I've been done with as much of A-Spec that interested me for 5 months now. Never did any Endurance of FGT. The only offline for me are the Seasonals or a Time Trial or two.

So the only tunes I need are strictly online. Even before I got into online there didn't seem to be that strong of a need for special tuning in any A-Spec events. Slap on some basic mods as needed and that was that.

I guess I don't really understand why tuners tune offline when cars can be tested in their own private online lobbies. I know there are Internet connection inconsistencies that make it hard to have a solid baseline for track conditions and realize there is no EZ button for that issue.

This is based on my assumption that aside from GTP Events and Tuner Shootouts, isn't the majority of competitive racing done online now?

And Polyphony Digital / Sony events.

Otherwise, yes, you're right.
A major problem in "baseline" tuning online is every track has different physics, or close there to. A tune that works on GV will suck on IRC, and a good tune IRC will kill you on Autumn Ring.
Quite frankly, as far as I'm concerned, every track must have it's own specific tune online, whereas offline it's much more reasonable to set a fast tune that doesn't kill you on other tracks.

 

[kilttraeger]

And Polyphony Digital / Sony events.

Otherwise, yes, you're right.
A major problem in "baseline" tuning online is every track has different physics, or close there to. A tune that works on GV will suck on IRC, and a good tune IRC will kill you on Autumn Ring.
Quite frankly, as far as I'm concerned, every track must have it's own specific tune online, whereas offline it's much more reasonable to set a fast tune that doesn't kill you on other tracks.

Wholeheartedly disagree. Once I found a good baseline tune for my car, it works and feels better (for me) than the default setup on all tracks.
Given your examples, I use the same setup for both Grand Valley and Indianapolis Road Course (and even Autumn ring or Nordschleife).

Multiple setups per car would be a nice addition though to address extreme tracks like High Speed Ring.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I tune with exactly the same principles online as offline, and I've had successful tunes for both, the difference is that the online tunes are geared towards what would under-steer offline.

+1 I use the same principals to solve handling issues both online and offline. I find that with online I need to settle the car down a little and add rear grip. Most cars need an LSD adjustment and some other suspension adjustments listed in order in my tuning guide.