Observations on suspension settings

[TT3AZ]

You might want to clear that up for the average reader.
The correct term would be:
Spring rate: F (150% of Minimum Setting), R (175% of Minimum Setting)

The issue then becomes, cars with altered limits of spring rate, where the rear can be adjusted to 5.0 and the front 4.0, but the car is designed around 50/50 spring rates, with both springs at 10.0, your equation will actually create slanted ratio's front to back, that will vary based on every min/max specification.
But it's just a general starting point, so it should be fine I guess.

Okay, how about this then, a little bit more simple:

Height: F (10), R (30). (F min -20, max 40), (R min -20, R max 40)
Spring rate: F (15), R (14). (F min 10, max 20), (R min 5, R max 17)
Ext: F (10), R (1).
Comp: F (1), R (10).
Camber: F (0), R (0).
Toe: F (0), R (0).

 

[dr_slump]

Okay, how about this then, a little bit more simple:

Height: F (10), R (30). (F min -20, max 40), (R min -20, R max 40)
Spring rate: F (15), R (14). (F min 10, max 20), (R min 5, R max 17)
Ext: F (10), R (1).
Comp: F (1), R (10).
Camber: F (0), R (0).
Toe: F (0), R (0).

Hmm, your goal is to have as less weight transfer as possible, right?

 

[TT3AZ]

Hmm, your goal is to have as less weight transfer as possible, right?

Well yes, or what is best for 4wd car during drag racing. My torque split is 50/50 by the way, and the car is a little bit higher so i can reach higher top speed, and then shorten my gears all togeather.

What i have extracted from different forums is that the rear should be a little bit higher than the front, and the spring rate should be pretty stiff for the rear. You can also see on different youtube videos that 4wd drag cars are pretty stiff on the suspension. But you want some weight to be transfered to the wheels though. Only problem is that if to much weight are beeing sent to the rear, the front looses traction. Funny part is that even though my car has 50/50 torque, the rear wheels still spinn much more than front wheels, so theres must be a glitch maybe. Basicly i want to replicate 4wd drag suspension, but i dont know how to do it, since i dont know the parameters in real life.

 

[AssassinTuner]

It's just a simulation. FAR from reality. It's been shown that tossing realistic tuning out the window, in favor of tuning through exploits is making fast unrealistic cars. There was a Time when Gran Turismo was the go-to-game for striving for realism, in the years that has changed. It used to be that the people who enjoyed Gran Turismo were upset at the Arcade-ness of other racing games, the lack of realism in the Crowd of Racers.

Gone are the days when it was assist free or Amateur Hour, now everybody drives with assist and it's the accepted norm.

Long story short, if you want to keep it real, forget what you see regularly or the norm over here, get off here and on a Tuning site with people with experience, If you just want to make times to post about easily, look at what most people are doing here, the clear pattern will arise, use it on everything under the sun.

 

[shirakawaa]

It's just a simulation. FAR from reality. It's been shown that tossing realistic tuning out the window, in favor of tuning through exploits is making fast unrealistic cars. There was a Time when Gran Turismo was the go-to-game for striving for realism, in the years that has changed. It used to be that the people who enjoyed Gran Turismo were upset at the Arcade-ness of other racing games, the lack of realism in the Crowd of Racers.

Problem is, GT has never really been a full simulation. The time you're referring to was when arcade racers were mostly running at insane speeds, with out-of-the-world "physics" and didn't require the player to use the brake button. When the first GT came out it was realistic in the sense that people had to apply proper real-life racing and driver techniques (and brake!) in order to drive competitively. However that was about it. It wasn't THAT realistic after all, but it was a huge change from all other arcade racing games.

GT5 is a huge improvement and finally gets the basics right, but it still lacks detail (on many aspects) found in pc sims that are years old. As small game developers have been able to program realistic physics (tire physics especially) on the pc over the years (netkar, LFS, rFactor, etc), I guess that what we have in GT5 must be a developer choice, unfortunately.

 

[chuyler1]

Gone are the days when it was assist free or Amateur Hour, now everybody drives with assist and it's the accepted norm.

i'd have to say speak for yourself. I host a nightly 450pp room with all aids off.

Long story short, if you want to keep it real, forget what you see regularly or the norm over here, get off here and on a Tuning site with people with experience, If you just want to make times to post about easily, look at what most people are doing here, the clear pattern will arise, use it on everything under the sun.

well i agree here. Tuning has become cookie cutter at this point. You can now ballast a car to your preferred distribution and then use ride height to fix any over/under steer.

 

[TT3AZ]

Okay intresting....but back on the subject, that is 4wd drag suspension, that i wrote about above

 

[AssassinTuner]

i'd have to say speak for yourself. I host a nightly 450pp room with all aids off.

No I speak this time ABOUT the community. We are a rare bunch us assist free drivers (no ABS either) however the majority of peeps use ABS, so to be competitive or partake in community events using ABS is a must to be competitive.

Like I said "GONE are the days of assist free, or go home" The MAJORITY use assist, while few of us go truly assist free

I agree GT1 was not crazy realistic, it's beside the point (not what I was getting at) it made the first steps in the right direction and as the franchise grew it continuously made strides to improve it's physics and incorporate new ways to push the realism envelope. Hell I don't even understand how I thought it looked good back then, that's irrelevant.

With GT5 the addition of un-indicated SRF, coupled with the overly accepted ABS-1 as "assist free" & rampant use of unrealistic tuning methods. The nature of the game I think is the same, but the people and way it's being played has changed over the years maybe not you or I, but the majority shifted.

When GT4 was hype the Tuning was kept as real as possible, otherwise why are you playing GT and not NFS...

Why do you like Gran Turismo?

 

[Nelsy]

Lastnight, I tested the height hide 'thing' to satisfy myself.. And used a FF car.
With the ride height 'trick' mentioned (front high, rear low) the car was pretty much undrivable for me, personally, I'll keep with real theory tuning, as it seems to make the car feel more planted. Also, with the front high, I noticed understeer was waaay too much, everytime I hit the gas the car would dive to the outside of the road.

For the record, I play completely assist free, no abs, no traction..

I enjoy the way I play the game, and only suggest that players play the game how they like and enjoy it for what it is.. A nice past time.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I first read about this ride height bug a couple of months ago and tried it out for myself and concluded that it works. How I used it is to tune a car the usual way, taking into account the weight, weight distribution, setting up the spring rates and dampers and ARB and ride height accordingly. Drive the car, tune the LSD, the toe, camber etc. and make adjustments to correct for overall grip, over/understeer etc. with equal ride heights front and back. At that point after say a half hour or so of tuning, if I can't get the car to do what I want it to do, what I think it should do, I make 1 point adjustments to the ride height, front or rear and it makes all the difference in the world, when nothing else seems to work. If you have everything else set up right, it's usually not necessary to use the ride height glitch.

I'd say about 75% of the cars I tune and drive have equal ride heights F/R, another 20% are within a point or two and a handful, mostly FWD cars have quite a bit additional ride height at the front to counter understeer.

As for using driving aids, I thought most people stopped using them. I usually only go into GT300/500 rooms and PP/tire limited street racing rooms and almost never see aids on but for ABS. If the braking function without ABS worked better with my DFGT (incredibly easy to lock it up because the pedal just is too sensitive) or the brake adjustment function in GT5 was better, say 0-100 adjustment as opposed to 0-10, I think more people would race without ABS as well. I've practiced with it off, and I'm pretty good below 550pp, but not ready to take it online just yet.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Lastnight, I tested the height hide 'thing' to satisfy myself.. And used a FF car.
With the ride height 'trick' mentioned (front high, rear low) the car was pretty much undrivable for me, personally, I'll keep with real theory tuning, as it seems to make the car feel more planted. Also, with the front high, I noticed understeer was waaay too much, everytime I hit the gas the car would dive to the outside of the road.

For the record, I play completely assist free, no abs, no traction..

I enjoy the way I play the game, and only suggest that players play the game how they like and enjoy it for what it is.. A nice past time.

When you drop the ABS Assist, the glitch/exploit tuning stops working as much (at least) some of the shortcomings of those bad set ups get uncovered when the assist is not masking them. It's like how Tuning with TCS is regarded as a failure, so should tuning with ABS... Instead ABS is exploited to make the use of unrealistic set ups & arcade style driving revered instead of seen for what they really are, set ups that rely on assist, and arcade style driving.

That's why I ask "Why do you play GT5?" it used to be a game about striving for realism in a sea of console arcade racer duds. It's becoming more and more just another arcade game, just with a large car list. This I guess is the result of GT going online, new assist, & a lack of community drive for excellence. The way it's going I don't see the series getting any better. GT4 being the franchise pinnacle.

I play for myself but enjoy a lil lap time comparison and other community events. It's crappy that ABS is accepted so wide spread, there are few of us assist free drivers, I use the DFGT it's good enough to do the job, takes Practice, but as everything you get better with practice, less use of ABS all over the community would mean more practice.

 

[chuyler1]

I'm not convinced that ABS=1 and ABS=0 are all that different. Drivers that boast their abilities to drive with ABS=0 usually have very expensive wheel/pedal setups and/or adjust the brake balance very low to avoid locking up the tires. If you were to require drivers to use ABS=0 in an online lobby you'd be excluding a large chuck of the community because you simply cannot be as competitive with controllers or budget wheel/pedal setups. Whether you race with it on or off, you still have to brake the same way.

I'd rather see a way to turn off the shift indicator in lobbies instead of turning off abs. We ran a one-make race last night in the Tesla Roadster on Tsukuba. It was amazing how many drivers didn't know where to brake when there wasn't a shift indicator blinking. I did alright but some of the top drivers in my room were severely handicapped...overshooting their brake zones left and right.

 

[shirakawaa]

PD should tone the ABS assist down (in GT5 it's too much effective and efficient) and make it work like it does in real life. In that way it would be harder to exploit it.

I'm not convinced that ABS=1 and ABS=0 are all that different. Drivers that boast their abilities to drive with ABS=0 usually have very expensive wheel/pedal setups and/or adjust the brake balance very low to avoid locking up the tires. If you were to require drivers to use ABS=0 in an online lobby you'd be excluding a large chuck of the community because you simply cannot be as competitive with controllers or budget wheel/pedal setups. Whether you race with it on or off, you still have to brake the same way.

I use ABS 0 with a DFGT, and with comfort soft tires and front brake power set to 10 (rear power usually set around 3-6 depending on how much oversteer I want under braking), front tires start to lock approximately halfway of the total brake range, where the brake pedal pressure starts ramping up. I think it's been made like that on purpose. Before that, I was using ABS 0 with a DS3. I used the red brake pressure chart (in the "bumper view") as my main reference point to dose right amount of brake pressure.

I'd rather see a way to turn off the shift indicator in lobbies instead of turning off abs. We ran a one-make race last night in the Tesla Roadster on Tsukuba. It was amazing how many drivers didn't know where to brake when there wasn't a shift indicator blinking. I did alright but some of the top drivers in my room were severely handicapped...overshooting their brake zones left and right.

I agree. Even if you don't want, you will end up noticing it. It's an assist that needs to be toggable, like the driving line option.
Hybrid/electric cars in GT5 are harder to drive for most people for this reason.

 

[chuyler1]

Well maybe I need to spend a little more time with it. I use the full pedal travel on my DFGT with ABS=1 but only for a moment before I lift off to about 25-50% as i trail into turns. The times I have raced with abs off I simply brake earlier and never use 100% brakes. i really don't see how ABS=1 makes driving unrealistic. You'll still cook your tires if you are mashing the brakes and turning at the same time.

 

[AssassinTuner]

I have a DFGT, cheap wheel, nothing expensive. Big diff between 0 & 1. NO you don't brake the same, not at all. So many drivers driving style relies on ABS, without it they would be forced to relearn how to drive in GT5, favoring more realistic techniques.

I agree because ABS is so widely accepted it's used online to be competitive, that's my grip. If more people stopped using it, it would be different.

It's one thing to use it for DS3 use (although I drive ABS free with a DS3 also, it's easier then with the DFGT for braking (O_O) if you use the triggers for throttle/brake, just lacks good steering input.) it's another to use it with everything, the expensive wheel guys are using ABS also.. That's not a good point. Then consider should the DS3 guys be racing drivers running expensive wheels? There would have to be a HANDICAP of some kind in place, hmmmm I wonder what would be better to serve this concern then everybody using an assist, hmmmm............... It's like fighting for rubber banding when your behind, but fighting against it when your in the lead. If slower drivers who don't want to opt for a wheel want to race people who did there should be rubber-banding rooms, then rooms where it's all about YOU the Driver, nothing slowing you down because of anybody else, as well as nothing speeding you up to help you keep up when everybody else has left you behind.

I ask that people boasting the settings are reversed do there testing with ALL ASSIST OFF. is it that the settings are reversed or that exploiting ABS makes them APPEAR that way?.?.?.?.?

 

[chuyler1]

If ABS could be turned off in a lobby, I'd turn it off...but you simply cannot race along side someone with ABS if you don't have it yourself. You're right the racing is different...but the skilled drivers prevail no matter what the settings are.

I almost never turn on boost...there is nothing worse than mediocre drivers making pass attempts on parts of the track you shouldn't pass on. Even the draft bugs me sometimes. You could get a perfect line off a turn while someone runs wide...but they'll be in your draft and even though they are on the gas later, the extra boost allows them to keep up. It is virtually impossible to shake drivers off your tail unless they make a huge mistake.

 

[AssassinTuner]

If ABS could be turned off in a lobby, I'd turn it off...but you simply cannot race along side someone with ABS if you don't have it yourself.

That's my point. If it were not used so wide spread, if it were not so generally accepted, would that be the same? (would you be put in that position as often) The fact it can't be restricted is insane. PD need to fix that, plus add replay indicators for ALL assist.

I almost never turn on boost...there is nothing worse than mediocre drivers making pass attempts on parts of the track you shouldn't pass on. Even the draft bugs me sometimes. You could get a perfect line off a turn while someone runs wide...but they'll be in your draft and even though they are on the gas later, the extra boost allows them to keep up. It is virtually impossible to shake drivers off your tail unless they make a huge mistake.

It wouldn't be like that if you both were not using ABS. The gap would be more dictated by driver skill, if he had it in him to keep up, it would then be on him to pressure you into a mistake. Having him up your ass is the pressure that causes good drivers to f-up, and great drivers to hold it together

 

[OwensRacing]

I use ABS off to keep myself in check with braking. With ABS1 I find myself going close to full brake. Knowing this is not a good thing and I get better results from less braking. My biggest catch with brakes is lack of simulation when at lock up let alone when you get into the ABS.

So I will set it to a 0 and then work on my braking points, applied pressure, and balance. I do enjoy it. If I could get other racers to do so. I would be down to race with out.

Maybe do a ABS 0 style race. You can hover over a name and see if they are running TCS, ABS, ETC....


Agree it takes more skill and teaches better technique.

 

[chuyler1]

While reading your posts, I was just thinking...the next wave of force feedback wheels should have vibrators in the pedal assemblies. Rough terrain or bumps in the road should translate through your feet as well as your hands...and locking up the brakes should cause both the wheel and the pedals to shake viciously. That kind of feedback would make ABS=0 driving less of a guessing game.

 

[AssassinTuner]

While reading your posts, I was just thinking...the next wave of force feedback wheels should have vibrators in the pedal assemblies. Rough terrain or bumps in the road should translate through your feet as well as your hands...and locking up the brakes should cause both the wheel and the pedals to shake viciously. That kind of feedback would make ABS=0 driving less of a guessing game.

I couldn't agree more, FFB in the brake pedal is the next step. (see what I did there, lol)

I'd like fade and dead pedal simulated, lock up and churping too.

We always have to make do with the tech as it evolves.

 

[Dr_Watson]

While reading your posts, I was just thinking...the next wave of force feedback wheels should have vibrators in the pedal assemblies. Rough terrain or bumps in the road should translate through your feet as well as your hands...and locking up the brakes should cause both the wheel and the pedals to shake viciously. That kind of feedback would make ABS=0 driving less of a guessing game.

You're on a console playing a mass-market game. If you wan't realism and simulation you need to be on the PC.
Fanatec Club sport pedals have a vibration motor under the brake pedal to indicate ABS/lockup... unfortunately its only implemented in PC sims. Same for the vibrators they have in the wheel rim to indicate kerbs and bumps; only work on PC and in Forza.

 

[AssassinTuner]

You're on a console playing a mass-market game. If you wan't realism and simulation you need to be on the PC.
Fanatec Club sport pedals have a vibration motor under the brake pedal to indicate ABS/lockup... unfortunately its only implemented in PC sims. Same for the vibrators they have in the wheel rim to indicate kerbs and bumps; only work on PC and in Forza.

Sweet, good to hear.

PD should get on that!!!

 

[chuyler1]

There's a lot of things PD needs to resolve beforehand though.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I couldn't agree more, FFB in the brake pedal is the next step. (see what I did there, lol)

I'd like fade and dead pedal simulated, lock up and churping too.

We always have to make do with the tech as it evolves.

http://www.perfectpedal.com/ <--- this will go a long way to making the brake pedal feel more realistic. Uses pressure, not a potometer to deliver the signal to the game.

 

[AssassinTuner]

http://www.perfectpedal.com/ <--- this will go a long way to making the brake pedal feel more realistic. Uses pressure, not a potometer to deliver the signal to the game.

Dude! That is insane... I hope consoles catch up. I'm done with PC gaming. Built a dedicated Gaming Rig, spent a ridiculous amount, and it was dated in no time, upgradeable, yeah, but unrealistic to keep up with. Just too much $$$ on a constant basis.

Sold all my desktop hardware & I got me a I7 Toshiba Satellite Lap Top (with Nvidia G-Force Cuda Core) and won't even consider installing a game on it.

PS4 with any luck will have it done right.

I understand and fully agree GT5 has horrible brake simulation. I guess my real gripe is how ABS is used to promote unrealistic driving technics accommodated by unrealistic tuning. Even with the horribly simulated brakes, real techniques while more difficult they work when the ABS is shut off, as they do with it on still. But the guy flying as deep as possible into the corner, burying the brake pedal and steering through the corner will be faster. That's a let down. Your rewarded for Arcade style driving/tuning and penalized for real techniques with proper driving no assist. It's a drag, but just my opinion.

 

[chuyler1]

I still don't see how you think abs allows drivers to run cheater tunes. It is no different than switching tire compounds when it comes to braking. Sport soft tires have greater stopping power than sport hard tires so you often have to adjust your tune to get the right balance. Add ABS and it gives you more stopping power causing your tune accordingly.

If you're driving around without abs i'm sure it really looks like drivers divebombing turns...but you'd experience the same thing if they were running softer tires.

The tune and the settings go hand in hand. ABS is far less of a crutch than any of the other aids in the game. You still have to brake accordingly with it on. With it off you just need to use less pressure and brake earlier.

 

[shirakawaa]

Well, since without ABS the default brake distribution leads to immediate oversteer while braking, It's more than just using less pressure and braking earlier.

The ABS in GT5 cuts braking power on individual wheels depending on how much they're losing grip, so suspensions will behave differently when cornering while braking hard with the ABS on compared to when it's off (where you brake all wheels together at a fixed ratio). It works like some kind of extremely active and aware stability control. Of course real ABS systems aren't that efficient or fast-acting. Perhaps PD should have implemented a "Real" setting between "0" and "1".

 

[AssassinTuner]

I still don't see how you think abs allows drivers to run cheater tunes. It is no different than switching tire compounds when it comes to braking. Sport soft tires have greater stopping power than sport hard tires so you often have to adjust your tune to get the right balance. Add ABS and it gives you more stopping power causing your tune accordingly.

If you're driving around without abs i'm sure it really looks like drivers divebombing turns...but you'd experience the same thing if they were running softer tires.

The tune and the settings go hand in hand. ABS is far less of a crutch than any of the other aids in the game. You still have to brake accordingly with it on. With it off you just need to use less pressure and brake earlier.

I'm gonna have to tell you your wrong. While YES better tires provide better performance (that goes without saying) tossing on a higher tire grade (to be perfectly clear) IN NO WAY simulates using ABS. None what so ever.

Think I'm wrong or puffing smoke? Jump in some of those FR cars with higher front weight then rear use some of those rear biased brake set ups (like those 3/9 types) run a few laps on SS tires with ABS on dive booming corners, then up the tire grade shut off ABS and see if you can hit those corners the same way.

Hell shut ABS off for a sec grab some RS tires and go to Fuji and plant the pedal turn one.

It just sounds like you've not spent enough time with ABS off...

 

[chuyler1]

Ahh, I see what you're saying. I thought we were discussing tuning suspension setups in this thread and forgot people mess with crazy brake balance settings...which would obviously wreak havoc when you turn off abs. If people are running 3/9 brake balance I totally agree with you. I've never run a rear biased brake balance. Most of the time I just stick to 5/5 but I've tuned a few MR cars with 6/4 or 7/3 and a few FR cars with 5/4. I do my best to fix braking oversteer/understeer with the suspension, not the brakes.

 

[AssassinTuner]

Ahh, I see what you're saying. I thought we were discussing tuning suspension setups in this thread and forgot people mess with crazy brake balance settings...which would obviously wreak havoc when you turn off abs. If people are running 3/9 brake balance I totally agree with you. I've never run a rear biased brake balance. Most of the time I just stick to 5/5 but I've tuned a few MR cars with 6/4 or 7/3 and a few FR cars with 5/4. I do my best to fix braking oversteer/understeer with the suspension, not the brakes.

No prob. Rear biased brake set ups are used, tunes are made around the rear biased balance. People are dive bombing corners, planting the pedal, steering through the brake, and throttling hard on exit. They are essentially Driving Gran Turismo like it's NFS.

I got no prob with it, just confused & let down it's become the accepted norm at GTP Just my opinion. I thought GTP was at a higher standard.