Observations on suspension settings

[shirakawaa]

I think it's mainly PD's fault for not providing sane front biased default brake distribution settings. People try switching the ABS off, see that they spin hopelessly on the first few corners (rather than, for example, ending up understeering because front wheels lock), deem that too difficult to manage and put back the ABS setting to 1 for ever.

Second fault, it's them not offering an option to remove (and enforce that online) the blinking brake indicator without removing the entire HUD. That leads to mindless braking behavior. Some people say that it blinks too early anyway so it's not a problem. However they probably still unconsciously take advantage of its consistency.

Third, to not offer a "no ABS assist" option in online rooms. That alone would have promoted ABS 0 usage. To compete people are currently forced to drive with the ABS on, except in rooms where everybody honestly agrees to not use it, which of course it's close to impossible in casual rooms where players mostly drive with racing soft tires.

Anyway, although this is an interesting discussion, I fear it's drifting the thread off-topic.

 

[chuyler1]

All great points that I'd love to see in the game.

While we're offtopic...

I'm also annoyed that when you follow another car the sound of your car is muted...especially when the other driver has a racing exhaust and you do not. I'd like "in cabin" sound effects from bumper cam... Or bumper cam hud in interior view... or a real hood cam. All these things are kind of pieced together and could easily be configurable. I use bumper cam only because its the only view that gives me a decent analog tach that's the same in every car along with a digital speedo so I can monitor my corner speeds at a quick glance.

 

[AssassinTuner]

I think it's mainly PD's fault for not providing sane front biased default brake distribution settings. People try switching the ABS off, see that they spin hopelessly on the first few corners (rather than, for example, ending up understeering because front wheels lock), deem that too difficult to manage and put back the ABS setting to 1 for ever.

Second fault, it's them not offering an option to remove (and enforce that online) the blinking brake indicator without removing the entire HUD. That leads to mindless braking behavior. Some people say that it blinks too early anyway so it's not a problem. However they probably still unconsciously take advantage of its consistency.

Third, to not offer a "no ABS assist" option in online rooms. That alone would have promoted ABS 0 usage. To compete people are currently forced to drive with the ABS on, except in rooms where everybody honestly agrees to not use it, which of course it's close to impossible in casual rooms where players mostly drive with racing soft tires.

Anyway, although this is an interesting discussion, I fear it's drifting the thread off-topic.

I have to agree with you on all points except 1. That this is off topic. I feel it's more than on topic.

You see people are noting their observations on suspension tuning, and noting it react differently then they expect based off real world techniques and principles.

The use of ABS with front or rear biased brakes I believe is a contributing factor coupled and enhanced by the use of rear biased brake balance. Testing this should be done literally "assist-free" then how the reactions are simulated will not be tainted by assist.

 

[chuyler1]

With ABS off, on an untuned car...what do you typically set the brake balance to? If the brake balance is messed up on virtually ever car in the game, perhaps tuners should start with a specific balance before they touch the suspension.

 

[AssassinTuner]

With ABS off, on an untuned car...what do you typically set the brake balance to? If the brake balance is messed up on virtually ever car in the game, perhaps tuners should start with a specific balance before they touch the suspension.

Typically, I start at 7/3 to 6/4 depending on weight distribution. I find it to be a good starting point for most cars. When weight is predominant on a given side, I lean to that side, but always take weight transfer under braking into consideration.

People might be surprised at how little weight is transferred when the suspension is dropped and stiffened up. Not everybody.

 

[shirakawaa]

I start with 10/4, then change the rear brake power depending on how much understeer or oversteer I get during braking in order to obtain a somewhat neutral braking.

With a front brake power of 10, front tires (comfort soft or sports hard) usually start locking just after the brake behavior on my DFGT transitions from being controlled by pedal position (= little to no change in the pressure needed to increase braking) to mostly by pressure. I don't know if it's just my model that behaves like this or if most people never noticed.

 

[chuyler1]

When weight is predominant on a given side, I lean to that side, but always take weight transfer under braking into consideration.

Really? Even on a MR where there's more weight in the rear? I've never had good luck with putting more brakes in the rear...but then again, I run very soft suspensions compared to most, very rarely increasing beyond the default custom settings.

With a front brake power of 10, front tires (comfort soft or sports hard) usually start locking just after the brake behavior on my DFGT transitions from being controlled by pedal position (= little to no change in the pressure needed to increase braking) to mostly by pressure. I don't know if it's just my model that behaves like this or if most people never noticed.

I opened mine up...there are two springs for the brake pedal. One similar to the gas pedal, and a 2nd that engages about half way. It's moot for me since I run the bungie-mod for both gas and brake. I need more sensitivity between 0-15% brake input for my driving style. I've got no complaints about the DFGT wheel, and I understand the pedals are soft so they work on carpet and hard surfaces...but since mine is attached to a wheel stand the extra feedback helps with consistency.

 

[shirakawaa]

Ok, now I understand. So I've set up brake power so that front wheels start locking only after the second DFGT brake pedal spring engages. I drive barefooted, so sensitivity is not a problem for me. With shoes probably better pedals are necessary.

 

[chuyler1]

I drive with socks usually but I can do it barefoot. I also drive with just my right foot for brake gas, like I do every day IRL. So I can't have the pedal too sensitive for when I quickly switch back and forth.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I have the DFGT as well...think I'll give it a spin with barefeet or socks and see how it works out.

 

[Adrenaline]

I didn't read the last 2 pages...
But just for reference, it's all about the socks on the pedals!

 

[chuyler1]

I didn't read the last 2 pages...
But just for reference, it's all about the socks on the pedals!

+1 👍

 

[AssassinTuner]

Yeah, I'm A socks guy too. I might check out that bungie mod.

 

[TT3AZ]

Seriously this thread has gone to far, please keep focused on suspension settings only.

 

[nomis3613]

Lastnight, I tested the height hide 'thing' to satisfy myself.. And used a FF car.
With the ride height 'trick' mentioned (front high, rear low) the car was pretty much undrivable for me, personally, I'll keep with real theory tuning, as it seems to make the car feel more planted. Also, with the front high, I noticed understeer was waaay too much, everytime I hit the gas the car would dive to the outside of the road.

For the record, I play completely assist free, no abs, no traction..

When you drop the ABS Assist, the glitch/exploit tuning stops working as much (at least) some of the shortcomings of those bad set ups get uncovered when the assist is not masking them.

I've found nose-up tuning also effects corner exit (for example, I have an RS6 which for no rake is quite balanced at corner exit: nose-down means power understeer and nose-up means power oversteer). To me, this says that the nose-up effect isn't related to ABS.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I haven't mastered no ABS yet so I can't say if taking ABS off eliminates the effect of raising the front ride height. But I can say, anyone who says they've tried this ride height bug and it doesn't work and they'll stick to the usual tuning devices...well they must be playing a different game than me. One thing to keep in mind is, this works best if it's a fine tune element, after you have set up the basic tune properly, according to standard theory. Lot's of cars work very well, maybe 75% of them, with equal ride heights. But there are quite a few that, with equal ride heights, you can't get them to turn as well as you can by increasing the front ride height between 1-5 mm.

Sure you can tune a car the standard way to make it loose in the rear and turn more that way, but looser in the rear means less overall traction and generally less consistency and higher lap times. As well, if you take a car that is well balanced, turns sharply and has lots of overall grip, and raise the front 5mm you'll ruin that car. It'll have oversteer on exit, probably be crap in tight hairpins and perhaps loose under hard trail braking. You have to know when and how to use it.

Another thing too is, it works just as well on the rear of the car. You take a car that is generally tail happy, like the GT500 NSX's, tune it as well as you can, then add a couple mm to the rear, and voila, whole new car, corners like it's on rails and you can throttle up on exit on 99% of the corners in the game without fear of the back end kicking out, on racing softs.

 

[chuyler1]

Yup Johnny. All correct. Once you identify the feel of a car that needs this ride height adjustment, it makes tuning much quicker.

The final turn of Deep Forest Reverse is a good example (turn 1 if you were going forward). Under heavy braking a FF car will naturally understeer on entry, understeer midcorner, and understeer on exit. Just running the default custom suspension settings will show this behavior. Raise the front to +10 and drop the rear to -10 and the car will become tail happy on entry and mid corner. You might even get the tail out on exit. Bring the height back to center a few clicks at a time until you get it balanced. Some FF cars it might be +5/-5, others +2/-2. Then experiment laterally. +10/0 or 0/-10. So much tuning can be done with just the ride height.

In short, you can get almost any car to oversteer or understeer...you just need to push it hard with extreme values until you find the opposite end of the spectrum. Once you find it, its just a matter of working to find the middle ground.

I know some people can do similar tuning with camber...but i find running different camber settings front and rear can lead to snap oversteer. The car behaves well for short quick turns, but for a long turn that builds up heat in the tires, camber settings will cause either the front or rear to give out at the worst moment.

 

[musomaniak]

Just a quick question , is this reversed ride height bug / or whatever you want to call it still in effect , i've been away from gt5 for quite a while , and rather than have to read through all the posts in this thread , thought i'd just ask . Did the latest patch not fix it ?

 

[chuyler1]

There hasn't been a patch for a while. The last patch made some minor changes to handling and i've had to retune a few vehicles, but as far as I can tell, you can still get cars to rotate better by adjusting the ride height.

 

[nomis3613]

^
+1

 

[adeadsnipermatt]

There hasn't been a patch for a while. The last patch made some minor changes to handling and i've had to retune a few vehicles, but as far as I can tell, you can still get cars to rotate better by adjusting the ride height.

Yup just tested it out I'm running an Aston Martin with a height of -15 in the front and -25 in the rear and it's rotating flawlessly. But seems to effect cars with a heavy front end. No so much with RR's and MR.

 

[praiano63]

Hi, here is a Forza suspension calculator, somebody know if the settings value from GT5 can be adapted to this calculator, like downforce in KG...

http://www.ondaground.net/flash/fm2/

 

[zero_speed]

Hi, here is a Forza suspension calculator, somebody know if the settings value from GT5 can be adapted to this calculator, like downforce in KG...

http://www.ondaground.net/flash/fm2/

I don't think so my friend. I played a lot of Forza 2, to go fast in that game you ran super soft springs, super stiff EXT settings, very soft COMP settings, and maxed out downforce.

 

[praiano63]

I don't think so my friend. I played a lot of Forza 2, to go fast in that game you ran super soft springs, super stiff EXT settings, very soft COMP settings, and maxed out downforce.

Yes ..... i will buy an alchemist book... perhaps it help me a few.

Thanks.

 

[tribolik]

Just a quick question , is this reversed ride height bug / or whatever you want to call it still in effect , i've been away from gt5 for quite a while , and rather than have to read through all the posts in this thread , thought i'd just ask . Did the latest patch not fix it ?

I dont know if it is in effect but when I put -25 on the front and 30 on the back and check the car on the garage the car sure seems like its leaning foward...

 

[CSLACR]

I dont know if it is in effect but when I put -25 on the front and 30 on the back and check the car on the garage the car sure seems like its leaning foward...

Ride height displays properly in GT5, if you set the front low, and the rear high, you will be able to see it.
But that was never the issue...

 

[tribolik]

From what I understood the OP said that the ride height values where exchanged in GT5 - front with rear. But if it is OK visualy why would it be wrong physics wise?

 

[CSLACR]

From what I understood the OP said that the ride height values where exchanged in GT5 - front with rear. But if it is OK visualy why would it be wrong physics wise?

Because at least to a point, having a lower rear than front should increase under-steer, and a lower front than rear should increase over-steer, and in any and all cases in GT5, the opposite happens.

 

[Highlandor]

From what I understood the OP said that the ride height values where exchanged in GT5 - front with rear. But if it is OK visualy why would it be wrong physics wise?

Just a fundamental mistake by Polyphony.

There is a common theme with 'problems' on GT5 - a lack of acceptance testing by Polyphony. Look at the game upon release, then look at some of the updates - including the last one. They fix something but fail to notice something 'else' has now gone wrong.

Look at things like slick tyres giving more grip than 'wets' when raining, the initial 'torque glitch' issue with power limiter, ballast glitch (changing the balance of the car by moving the lower bar fr - rr but not adding any weight at all) etc etc.

It's just a fundamental lack of testing to see that 'everything' works as it should.

The ride height 'works' in terms of looks, you 'slam' the front and raise the rear and your car will have this 'nose down' stance when you look at it in your garage. BUT, what that 'look' should do to the car's handling is wrong, it is reverse. So Polyphony got the graphics right, but in this instance, the handling 'physics' the wrong way round.

Simple as that.

 

[Sm0k3:D]

Just a fundamental mistake by Polyphony.

It's just a fundamental lack of testing to see that 'everything' works as it should.

Simple as that.

100% Agree.
I think testing a game like this is a huge work: Testing every option, every car... When time is running against developers... But PD can patch it after, and they have milions of testers. (We, customers, are the best testers! IMO)

We are discovering every glitch and every mistake. PD just has to listen their customers.

Simple as that