Observations on suspension settings

[Adrenaline]

I guess it's just me, but those ride height results make sense to me.
The more rake you use, the better rear traction you get, meaning the more understeer you'll feel overall.
Slam the rear and you get no suspension travel, no absorb-tion of weight transfer and wheel spin.

 

[nomis3613]

^ you realise he was testing in an FF? (just checking)

 

[Adrenaline]

I didn't actually. I fail.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

This is just my opinion, if you see it different that's fine, I'm not here to say who is right and who is wrong I just want to post my opinion on the test results.

Test A

Ride Height -20 +20 Understeer
Spring Rate 10 10
Shock Bound 4 4
Shock Rebound 4 4
Stabilizers 4 4

I see a raised center of gravity on the rear, and a lowered center of gravity in the front.

In the corners
I see this causing less rotation of the front and more rotation of the rear. Front is harder to turn rear is easier. Wether this will cause over or understeer will depend on the natural characteristics of the car. The amount of effect on either end felt will also depend on the car.

If the layout has a natural Understeer characteristic it will most often enhance the understeer if too extreme a difference to the front.

Example

AWD & FF = natural Understeer tendencies (not all depends on the car)

For the ones that understeer This will make them understeer more most often while at such an extreme value. With smaller differences you can use the benefits for the rear ( to help rotate it) while minimizing any draw backs to the front.

MR cars it might have the opposite effects DEPENDING on what end the issue is. MR can be more prone to oversteer from over-rotating ends.This direction (while the test is using extreme values) would suggest a tightening of the front end and loosening of the rear. Or easier rotating rear, harder to rotate the front. If your MR or FR over rotates at the rear & not enough at the front, too extreme of a difference can cause them to understeer. The tightening of the fronts impact overpowering the effect on the rear. Then other MR cars will oversteer as the impact on the rear overwhelms the impact on the front.

It's not going to be the same for all cars

Going straight.
More DF, tighter at speed, shorter braking distances.

Slower top speed

Test B

Ride Height +20 -20 Oversteer
Spring Rate 10 10
Shock Bound 4 4
Shock Rebound 4 4
Stabilizers 4 4

Loosening the front tightening of the rear. Or harder to rotate rear, easier to rotate front end.

(Again the test is using extreme values)

Cars with oversteer tendencies will oversteer more. Cars with understeer tendencies may understeer less at the cost of throwing off the balance of the chassis.

FF & AWD cars will most often still suffer from an under rotating rear with a much more loose front. It may appear to have advantages (and it does) they just always come at the cost of so Many other things, you begins to be tuning around a tuning flaw.

MR it will be the same as the reversed settings for the same reasons.. It will work great on some, horrible on others depending on the chassis.

Straight line
Less DF, Less stable, lil bit more loose at speed, longer braking distances.

Higher top speed

Test B has more draw backs IMO

 

[chuyler1]

I guess it's just me, but those ride height results make sense to me.
The more rake you use, the better rear traction you get, meaning the more understeer you'll feel overall.
Slam the rear and you get no suspension travel, no absorb-tion of weight transfer and wheel spin.

Although you missed that it was a ff car, i think you still have a point. If the suspension cant absorb bumps in the front because it is too low, you will certainly get understeer. Oversteer would occur on a ff when the rear suspension cant absorb bumps.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

There is only 20 to 30 mm wheel travel?

I think even slammed down most cars still have some travel. Coupled with over stiff springs/dampers and you got no wheel movement.

Not being argumentative, being analytical.

I'd like to mention that 0/0 ride height on a Adjustable suspension is not equal to Stock Ride height. I'm not sure if everybody is aware of this.

 

[nomis3613]

I'd like to mention that 0/0 ride height on a Adjustable suspension is not equal to Stock Ride height. I'm not sure if everybody is aware of this.

Really? My opinion is that it is the same. The values of stock come up as 0 / 0, also when I tested stock and default back to back, the ride height and springs felt the same.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Really? My opinion is that it is the same. The values of stock come up as 0 / 0, also when I tested stock and default back to back, the ride height and springs felt the same.

Put the stock suspension on take a pic, put the adjustable suspension on take another pic.

Clearly dropped at 0/0

Stock Suspension

Only thing done was add a adjustable suspension

Clearly lower. It's been like that in GT4, can't remember 2, or 3 but pretty sure it was.

Many (not all) 0 setting is 0 adjustment. Meaning 0 adjustment from vehicle default setting of the installed part, as apposed to a setting of 0 being actually 0. As is ride height adjustments. I believe Camber may be like this also, not confirmed. Toe is puzzling as it doesn't seem consistent. PD will at times add a little adjustment to compensate for physics inability or flaws not ride height (that I've seen so far), but toe & camber. It could be why there is generic default Toe values.

Take your own pics to confirm

 

[nomis3613]

Thanks. Wow, I had no idea.

Hmmm... it would be really strange if 0 toe or camber didn't actually mean the wheel was straight in that direction.

 

[adeadsnipermatt]

Also the lowest setting for the ZR1 are 0 which looks visually lower.

 

[Adrenaline]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I figured it was to be expected that the ride height would change.
Buying the upgraded suspensions isn't just opening options in the menu, it actually installs a new suspension on the car. In this case meaning lowering springs and stiffer rates, no different than a real car. But, I guess it wouldn't have surprised me if that wasn't how it worked, but I assumed it was. I'm more curious if the measurements of mm are actually correct, or if the numbers are just a numeric value that correspond to something else.

 

[adeadsnipermatt]

We will never know until we can get the games dev to go in detail regarding values. I wish there was a breakdown but we can never have everything with GT.

 

[chuyler1]

Ive always assumed the ride height changed. The custom suspension is actually quite capable without messing with it compared to the default suspension.

I really think lowering the height affects grip negatively more than it helps. I know a raked stance might give you better down force at high speeds but i dont think that is modeled in the game.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Thanks. Wow, I had no idea.

Hmmm... it would be really strange if 0 toe or camber didn't actually mean the wheel was straight in that direction.

No prob, I think quite a few didn't realize it also, few will admit it.

It's Not strange at all. 0 reflects 0 adjustment. It would be stranger and a negative reflection on the physics if they thought cars were sold with 0 wheel angles, or that the cars would require 0 wheel angles to feel like they do IRL.

When it comes to Camber and Toe it's harder to see the differences (Toe next to impossible for small adjustments) However camber is visually noticeable when set to 0. You can still see close to 1 - 1.5 degrees camber when set to 0.

I'll go snag a pic if you want, although it's a lil hard to see 0 - 1.5 degrees it is visible.

 

[nomis3613]

Thanks. There's definitely a change visually, but I'm always aware of the possibility that the physics and graphic programming isn't necessarily related. I'm not saying you're wrong, just something to keep in mind.

I say this because when I tested the stock suspension vs FC with default settings, the toe and camber settings felt the same.

IIRC the in-game help never mentions that settings like springs, camber, toe are relative not absolute. So it is very misleading if "0 camber" actually means a default angle of who-knows-what, instead of the wheel being vertically straight.

 

[No_OBsT33R]

Thanks. There's definitely a change visually, but I'm always aware of the possibility that the physics and graphic programming isn't necessarily related. I'm not saying you're wrong, just something to keep in mind.

I say this because when I tested the stock suspension vs FC with default settings, the toe and camber settings felt the same.

IIRC the in-game help never mentions that settings like springs, camber, toe are relative not absolute. So it is very misleading if "0 camber" actually means a default angle of who-knows-what, instead of the wheel being vertically straight.

Adjustable suspension doesn't necessarily change all settings (while it certainly drops the car) the 0 Camber may be the same (or slightly altered if at all) to stock suspension. Potentially imperceivable.

It would be upsetting (more so IMO) if the physics were so off they use generic 0 camber when all cars have some degree of camber stock.

Yeah, it makes sense on some levels but seems odd still. IMO it makes more sense then the alternative of 0 camber physics.

 

[Sail IC]

Very interesting thread.

Starting with ride hight, I don't find adjusting it equally front/back affects the handling on the car. Max low or max high makes no difference. But if changing on one of them, it affects the balance of the car throughout the corner. Its like having a ballast and moving it front/back. To finetune the balance of the car for a certain track, its the tune I use the most. Having a well balanced car also makes tires wear more even front/back.

 

[sanesh21]

Hi guys, new to the forum. Personally I have been having understeer problems with almost all my tuned cars. I'm not sure if the theory of the settings been the wrong way around. But I have found a sure fire way of kicking the back out and getting oversteer to really hammer those corners.
I cannot stand to look at the car with a high nose and sunk rear! That is not how any of us would want our own rides to look. So here goes
Lower the front to max.
Lower rear about 90-92% of max
Front rate about 9-10
Rear rate about 12-13
Leave front arb stock
Rear arb to 3
Then front camber 3.0
Rear camber 0.8-1
Front toe stock
Rear toe -0.30 to -0.70 depending how much u want the back to kick out.
Give this a try .

 

[JackWilson]

I have just experimented with the Ride Height settings and agree with the OP. High front/Low Rear= Less understeer, and Low front/High Rear=More understeer(too much for me to handle). This problem needs to be fixed. I now have completely lost my motivation for tuning and dont know what to do anymore. Please fix this PD put it how it should be you still have time before next update

 

[Motor City Hami]

Originally posted this in another thread on this subject that popped up (and should be closed). Thought I'd post it here to let you guys flame away at. Just my opinions below...

There are just different means to attain the same thing, a car that goes fast and doesn't understeer. The ride height "cheat" or "glitch" or whatever you want to call it is just a short cut way to get a car to act more balanced.

There are definately other ways to tune out understeer, but they can be more work. Suspension settings, LSD settings and downforce all work together. Changing one thing can affect something else.

I believe that those who are willing to work at understanding tuning will be faster in the end and have better tire wear. And I don't for a minute believe that any of the settings are backwards. I only split the ride height as a fine tune, if I can't get other settings to make the car perfect. When I do adjust ride height, strangly enough, the in-game descriptions actually produce the results listed. Settings aren't backwards... something else is flawed in the tune.

 

[JackWilson]

There are definately other ways to tune out understeer, but they can be more work. Suspension settings, LSD settings and downforce all work together. Changing one thing can affect something else.

I believe that those who are willing to work at understanding tuning will be faster in the end and have better tire wear. And I don't for a minute believe that any of the settings are backwards. I only split the ride height as a fine tune, if I can't get other settings to make the car perfect. When I do adjust ride height, strangly enough, the in-game descriptions actually produce the results listed. Settings aren't backwards... something else is flawed in the tune.

i agree with all what you are saying but correct me if im wrong:
A car with lower RH at the front than the rear will turn-in better and suffer from less understeer. And a car with lower RH at the rear than the front will suffer from more understeer. But in GT5 if u set the front RH lower than the rear (eg. F-25 R+25) u will suffer from great understeer, this was tested in an AWD Evo. And the front RH higher than the rear (eg. F+25 R-25) pretty much all understeer is gone and the car turns-in and exits so easily. So the settings are backwards are they not?

Just to let you know im no expert, learning alot here and appreciate all info.

 

[wmwolverines]

My cornering speeds are certainly higher with high front ride heights and lower rears; more oversteer...

Which is the EXACT opposite of the real world.

 

[Motor City Hami]

From the in-game manual:
Ride Height Adjustment - This allows you to adjust the height of the front and back of the car separately. A lower ride height means a lower center of gravity and improved maneuverability, but set it too low, and there won't be enough room for the springs to move, which can cause problems such as the wheels not remaining in contact with the ground. If you lower the ride height, increase he spring rate in order to compensate for the shortened stroke length. You can also influence how a car steers by adjusting the front and rear ride height. Generally speaking, a lower front end or higher rear end will increase the tendency to oversteer, while the opposite will encourage understeer.

What this says to me:
Don’t set ride height too low or the game physics will mess with shock up travel and with grip.
Lower front, higher rear should produce more oversteer.
Higher front, lower rear should produce more understeer.
Just like in the real world theory.

I find these ride height splits to work as described in the game, if the LSD, suspension settings and downforce are set up properly. I don’t know why high front, low rear produces less understeer for some – not arguing that it doesn’t – just challenging the descriptions of why. The easy answer to explain something that one doesn’t understand is to call it a flaw or a glitch. Just like people who live near air force test bases who are always seeing UFOs, if a logical explanation is difficult to find, our brains will justify another possible description.

I have not tested, but I am guessing that the ride height glitch is actually playing off some other part of the tune. Maybe too low of rear ride height is producing a bouncing effect of the rear tires, therefore reducing grip? Or maybe they have simulated bump stops (not mentioned anywhere in the game) that when the car gets too low, the bump stop acts as a heavier spring, causing a loose condition? On my real world race car, I know that if I am not smooth on inputs or if there is a bump mid corner, the rear of the car will hit the bump stop and produce a snap loose condition.

I am still having a difficult time buying the fact that PD could have programmed something this simple, wrote an in-game description and they got it backwards? Just seems really silly to me knowing the hours that went into the physics engine. I get a good laugh out of those demanding that word get to Kaz immediately to get this fixed. OMG, like he wouldn’t have caught something this big. I guess I am just not ready to join the UFO spotters yet, especially when I can tune a car, easily get rid of oversteer and be competitive online. Join some longer online races that wear out tires enough for a pit stop or two. How do the high/low tunes work for you? Get a lot of laps out of your tires? More than most or less? I'm just not buyin' it.

 

[phil_75]

From the in-game manual:
Ride Height Adjustment - This allows you to adjust the height of the front and back of the car separately. A lower ride height means a lower center of gravity and improved maneuverability, but set it too low, and there won't be enough room for the springs to move, which can cause problems such as the wheels not remaining in contact with the ground. If you lower the ride height, increase he spring rate in order to compensate for the shortened stroke length. You can also influence how a car steers by adjusting the front and rear ride height. Generally speaking, a lower front end or higher rear end will increase the tendency to oversteer, while the opposite will encourage understeer.

What this says to me:
Don?t set ride height too low or the game physics will mess with shock up travel and with grip.
Lower front, higher rear should produce more oversteer.
Higher front, lower rear should produce more understeer.
Just like in the real world theory.

I find these ride height splits to work as described in the game, if the LSD, suspension settings and downforce are set up properly. I don?t know why high front, low rear produces less understeer for some ? not arguing that it doesn?t ? just challenging the descriptions of why. The easy answer to explain something that one doesn?t understand is to call it a flaw or a glitch. Just like people who live near air force test bases who are always seeing UFOs, if a logical explanation is difficult to find, our brains will justify another possible description.

I have not tested, but I am guessing that the ride height glitch is actually playing off some other part of the tune. Maybe too low of rear ride height is producing a bouncing effect of the rear tires, therefore reducing grip? Or maybe they have simulated bump stops (not mentioned anywhere in the game) that when the car gets too low, the bump stop ac
ts as a heavier spring, causing a loose conditions? On my real world race car, I know that if I am not smooth on inputs or if there is a bump mid corner, the rear of the car will hit the bump stop and produce a snap loose condition.

I am still having a difficult time buying the fact that PD could have programmed something this simple, wrote an in-game description and they got it backwards? Just seems really silly to me knowing the hours that went into the physics engine. I get a good laugh out of those demanding that word get to Kaz immediately to get this fixed. OMG, like he wouldn?t have caught something this big. I guess I am just not ready to join the UFO spotters yet, especially when I can tune a car, easily get rid of oversteer and be competitive online. Join some longer online races that wear out tires enough for a pit stop or two. How do the high/low tunes work for you? Get a lot of laps out of your tires? More than most or less? I'm just not buyin' it.

If people starting Kaz/PD by twitter/email we would soon get either a patch or an explanation on why it does that.
I have noticed that online people are starting to use it to gain advantage!

This thread will go on and on with no definite answer!

(Shouts) JORDAN!

 

[adeadsnipermatt]

I sent Kaz a tweet but I don't expect a reply anytime soon. I pray he looks at it but it may not happen.

 

[CyKosis1973]

I am still having a difficult time buying the fact that PD could have programmed something this simple, wrote an in-game description and they got it backwards? Just seems really silly to me knowing the hours that went into the physics engine.

I've worked with s/w engineers for years now, I'm prepared to believe they'll do the most stupid of things and it won't be discovered for years. I still talk to some guys who left our company years ago, I know their guilty secrets.

Anyway, I've confirmed in my own mind that there is a perceived reversed effect for ride height. Using this CAR, which inherently wants to understeer, I flipped the ride height and all of a sudden the rear end goes mental.

However, beyond that, I have nothing useful to add. I don't know why it does it, poor code, poor in game descriptions, poor build on my behalf. Is the rear now so tight and heavy that it bottoms out?? I don't know.

I am now looking at other people's work and whilst I have no substantive evidence, there are some trends for notoriously oversteering cars that have builds that favour low front and high rear. This sorta suggests to me that anything above about +10mm rear over front ride height, will tame some hard to handle cars. (I'm not for a minute suggesting that people are doing this on purpose before there's any shouting. I'm talking about some fairly normal figures, none of this +45 / -30 jazz.)

I'll experiment with some smaller increments on this BMW tonight, see what happens. Think I might apply some of the principles to my Caterham too...

{Cy}

 

[Stotty]

My Experience is that high front/low rear doesn't work on the Caterham... and fully tuned, the Caterham is quite a challenging car to tune and drive!

I haven't tried FWD or AWD, but it does work on most of the FR cars and also on some MR (although the natural balance of MR cars tends to be better and means they don't really need it).

I also find that ride height has the biggest influence on handling balance... IME, it has more effect and is an easier fix for understeer than ARB's or camber for example.

I agree running +45 -30 sounds odd, but in reality it's only a 3" rake, so it's not that crazy... does make the cars look a bit weird though

 

[shirakawaa]

It would be nice to be able to inspect suspension geometry and weight distribution in real time while adjusting its setup. Life for Speed allowed that, and I found that very instructive and useful.

 

[Stotty]

Weight distribution modelling would be a very useful addition 👍

 

[CyKosis1973]

My Experience is that high front/low rear doesn't work on the Caterham... and fully tuned, the Caterham is quite a challenging car to tune and drive!

I've done as much as I can with the suspension on my Caterham, and it drives sweetly 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time, it'll chew one of my limbs off and spit me and it into a hedge.

I'm hoping I can trim that 10% down with a slightly higher front end, maybe only 5mm. I'll let you know how I get on later...

{Cy}