Of course Jim Sterling has to jump on it now...

[TrevorPhilips]

They're one hundred percent correct, and it really says a lot to the dichotomy of this forum that there is a belief that the people who don't have a stake in the genre or game, to posit them as 'whiners' or trying to profit themselves off the horrific launch GT7 had

I agree, just as much as I did when Jim brought up similar concerns with FM7 and you said this.

Pretty typical of ol' Jim. He's a *ing drama hound, and he was a right * when he was asked about backing up his opinions on my time on NeoGAF.

I don't take his words with any sort of brevity anymore. Just another Youtuber.

Both times Jim was right but only half the time you were willing to accept that. You are part of the problem too.

 

[Silver Arrows]

I agree, just as much as I did when Jim brought up similar concerns with FM7 and you said this.



Both times Jim was right but only half the time you were willing to accept that. You are part of the problem too.

Wow, a post from my first year on the forum. Great gotcha you got me in, like that's at any point applicable.

People change, their opinions on things change from 2017 to now. I don't even have any desire to remember what Jim was like when they were posting on NeoGAF, and besides, considering how much they have changed as a person, I doubt my views from 6 years ago ultimately matter. And yes, Jim was right both times, however, the fact of the matter is is that even as much as people on this forum at the time raked T10 over the coals (rightly, I might add) another specific group of this forum wanted to make T10 out as the forever devil for their actions, which as we have seen with the benefit of hindsight, T10 (and the entire Forza franchise) learned from the experience, and in the preceding two Forza games since, have not gone back to it, and show no signs of doing so again. T10 learned their lesson, even though, again with the benefit of hindsight, those micro-transactions and loot boxes were really incredibly small fry stuff that had little appreciable impact on the game in general, especially in the game economy front.

What has Polyphony done in that same time frame? Lied about not adding in micro-transactions to GT Sport, adding them in months after the general populace stopped caring, and decided that the best course of action, after adding in MTX's for the preceding two games, was to create a game where said MTX's were the fulcrum design point of the entire experience, where the entire in game economy was designed around them, where so many problems with the game eventually circled back to micro-transactions. To the point where Polyphony, knowingly, only turned on micro-transactions once reviewers were done with their press release copies, in order to guarantee that the high Metacritic scores were achieved and that the experience you or I got was significantly different from the one that reviewers did. And even after Polyphony acknowledged the problems with the way the entire economy of GT7 was handled, they still, with those changes that Polyphony have announced, have not even come close to addressing the root problem of the game dangling MTX's in front of you in every screen that has you spending credits, and directly affecting the way that you gain credits in order to control the money that players receive so that more often then not, simply playing the game isn't enough to buy the cars that Polyphony expects you to collect, that you're either supposed to pay the money (and never the amount you specifically need!) or grind the game to an untenable degree in order to pump up play time numbers. And that second option always has the option to be changed by Polyphony at the drop of the hat, and even them promising to raise credit payouts for events back up again is really only returning to pre-1.06 levels. The root issue still has not been fixed at all, simply some values changed around. At least when T10 got criticized for it, they allowed you to not only hide the ability to pay for cars via micro-transactions (something that Polyphony hasn't done at all) but they also removed the offending items and never went back to them. What has Polyphony done?

Suffice to say, as much as you think that this gotcha makes you the ultimate winner in this, it doesn't, and in fact proves a very simple fact: that with the power of hindsight, the entire 'controversy' about FM7 and loot boxes (which weren't) and micro-transactions, for as much as it was red meat to certain sections of this forum who see everything through the prism that is GT vs. Forza slap fights that stopped being relevant in 2011, ultimately wasn't even anywhere close to being as bad as GT7's current controversy is now. That T10 learned their ultimate lesson and have not come anywhere close to replicating it since 2017, while Polyphony and Kaz have continually lied, and even with the general gaming press's eyes firmly on the studio and the figurehead of the franchise, Kaz still believes that his tactics with regards to promising things that still don't really fix the main issue, as a way to obfuscate and hopefully distract people from the fact that his suggestions aren't at all getting to the root cause of the problem.

 

[TrevorPhilips]

And yes, Jim was right both times

I know he was, that's what I just said. Glad you came round to thinking rationally. But remember, if it wasn't for people like Jim speaking up in the first place, people like you back then would have sat back and let this bull happen in Forza games. And if it wasn't for people speaking up now, Sony would think they could get away with this bull in their next 9 GAAS titles too. And don't think for one second if Sony got let off the hook with the **** they're trying now that MS wouldn't be far behind with trying it again in the future. Nobody is that naïve, surely.

I didn't bother reading the rest because I don't care who is the lesser of two evils. It's all bull**** in a retail game from a platform holding developer.

 

[kjeldsen]

If the revenue from dlc and mtx is 50% then what does people imagine will happen if that revenue went away?

 

[Tornado]

They'd probably release games more often.

 

[Silver Arrows]

And if it wasn't for people speaking up now, Sony would think they could get away with this bull in their next 9 GAAS titles too.

...I'd recommend reading between the lines of the statements Kaz has made outlining what is in the pipe for GT7, and what he intends to do to fix this problem the game finds itself in.

Finally, we also want to take the opportunity to lay out some of the near-term updates we are working on. We can’t confirm an exact date or specifics yet, but will give advance notice via www.gran-turismo.com.

• Increase the payout value of limited time rewards as we develop as a live service.
• Further World Circuit event additions.
• Addition of Endurance Races to Missions including 24-hour races.
• Addition of Online Time Trials and awarding of rewards according to the player’s difference with the top ranked time.
• Make it so cars can be sold.

Nowhere in this specific portion says that the ultimate problem, the micro-transactions, are going away. Nothing. And again, the fact that he says 'we can't confirm an exact date, or specifics' (even though for the 'further World Circuit event additions, and presumably new Menus, we know those exist due to Jimmy Fallon showing them off) ultimately says that these sorts of massive changes will be a while, considering how Polyphony operates. People on this forum want to pat Polyphony on the back for listening to the endless criticizing, but really I just see deflection and buying for time to figure out how to continue pushing the micro-transaction issue without getting pilloried for it again, so Sony, and specifically Polyphony (because once again, Polyphony added micro-transactions to the prior two GT games) still believes they can get away with it.

And don't think for one second if Sony got let off the hook with the **** they're trying now that MS wouldn't be far behind with trying it again in the future.

Once again, we're what, six years beyond from the FM7 controversy, and both T10, PG and Microsoft haven't done anything of the sort and show no desire to return to it. What has Polyphony done in that same time frame? Figure it out.

I didn't bother reading the rest because I don't care who is the lesser of two evils. It's all bull**** in a retail game from a platform holding developer.

Once more, you ignore the fact that T10 and PG, alongside Microsoft themselves, learned their lesson. Even with Polyphony supposedly 'learning' their lesson, they don't come anywhere to eliminating the problem. Absolutely, FM7's controversies are the lesser of two evils, so why the hell you seem intent in trying to posit T10 and Microsoft as worse for this when it's pretty clear Polyphony has no desire to significantly change things, I don't know other then simply console war copium huffing.

If the revenue from dlc and mtx is 50% then what does people imagine will happen if that revenue went away?

this argument would probably be a lot more effective if this wasn't dealing with one of Sony's tent pole franchises, and from a developer that, up to this point, has had an outsized amount of power that comes from being one of the few remaining Japanese first party developers in a corporation that has gone almost entirely Western

 

[Symtex]

I know he was, that's what I just said. Glad you came round to thinking rationally. But remember, if it wasn't for people like Jim speaking up in the first place, people like you back then would have sat back and let this bull happen in Forza games. And if it wasn't for people speaking up now, Sony would think they could get away with this bull in their next 9 GAAS titles too. And don't think for one second if Sony got let off the hook with the **** they're trying now that MS wouldn't be far behind with trying it again in the future. Nobody is that naïve, surely.

I didn't bother reading the rest because I don't care who is the lesser of two evils. It's all bull**** in a retail game from a platform holding developer.

If you going to throw Forza under the game at least get your facts straight. FM7 has NO REAL MONEY transfer in the game. Only in-game credit for loot boxes. GT7 is like 5 millions step above that in terms of predatory behavior. They have tailored their career to incentive MTX. Basically they tried a F2P model on a 70$ game. Now that is evil.

I am so tired of seeing FM7 being throw under the bus around here as the outrage was not justified.

 

[Silver Arrows]

FM7 has NO REAL MONEY transfer in the game.

Thank you. And the only things that you could even get from those loot boxes were mods (which made the game harder for monetary rewards) and driver suits (ultimately pointless in the grand scheme of things)

So yeah, mountains out of molehills compared to what Polyphony has done in GT7.

 

[Tornado]

While the shrill shrieking about the issue on this forum when in comparison the common line for GT when Sport's microtransactions were announced was "well PD need the money I guess so that's fine" was annoying, it probably shouldn't be assumed that an entire EA-style lootbox system was recreated 1:1 and deeply embedded into the game structure and that Microsoft was never intending to capitalize on it.

 

[Silver Arrows]

While the shrill shrieking about the issue on this forum when in comparison the common line for GT was "well PD need the money I guess" was annoying, it probably shouldn't be assumed that an entire EA-style lootbox system was recreated 1:1 and deeply embedded into the game structure and that Microsoft was never going to capitalize on it financially.

True, but lets be real, by this point we're getting into alternative history. What matters is what was done to fix the problem, and what has been done since then. Since FM7 got raked over the coals for it, Forza as a series, and both T10/PG as developers and Microsoft as the publisher, have not gone back to it, and show no desire to return to it until further notice. Compared to what Polyphony have done, of course it's the lesser of two evils, and those who feel the need to bring it up as some sort of way to bash Forza over it is just painfully obvious baiting that completely ignores pretty much everything else other then 'Forza 7 had lootboxes and micro-transactions' and even then, gets more things wrong for the sake of making GT look better in an internet argument.

 

[FPV MIC]

...I'd recommend reading between the lines of the statements Kaz has made outlining what is in the pipe for GT7, and what he intends to do to fix this problem the game finds itself in.

You missed this bit

Changes that will come into effect beginning of April:

　・Increased rewards for the latter half of the World Circuits events by approximately 100% on average;
　・Addition of large rewards for clearing the Circuit Experiences with all Gold or Bronze results;
　・Increased rewards for the online races;
　・Addition of eight new one-hour Endurance Race events to Missions. These will also have larger rewards;
　・Increase the player's wallet upper limit of non-paid Credits from 20,000,000 to 100,000,000;
　・Increase the quantity of Used and Legend Cars on offer at any given time.

Beyond this there will be a few additional Updates deployed between now and the end of April which will add new cars and course layouts, as well as implementing some other fixes.
________________

Hopefully this will address some of the issues. The issue isn't the microtransactions themselves, it's the low pay outs in general that are forcing the grinding of one specific event to push you towards the microtransactions that is. Better, more balanced pay outs = no need to grind or purchase microtransactions.

It still misses the mark imho because there's no mention of increased pay outs for custom races which would go a long way to stop the repeating of the same high paying events.

Just to add, I agree Forza should be left out of this. This is a Sony/PD issue that has little to do with what happened in Forza's past.

 

[mynameis66]

I so hope the payout increase will be across all the races,but the average 100% thing worries me a little.100% increase on todays payouts will still put a lot of them below the original payouts before the nerf.

 

[TrevorPhilips]

...I'd recommend reading between the lines of the statements Kaz has made outlining what is in the pipe for GT7, and what he intends to do to fix this problem the game finds itself in.



Nowhere in this specific portion says that the ultimate problem, the micro-transactions, are going away. Nothing. And again, the fact that he says 'we can't confirm an exact date, or specifics' (even though for the 'further World Circuit event additions, and presumably new Menus, we know those exist due to Jimmy Fallon showing them off) ultimately says that these sorts of massive changes will be a while, considering how Polyphony operates. People on this forum want to pat Polyphony on the back for listening to the endless criticizing, but really I just see deflection and buying for time to figure out how to continue pushing the micro-transaction issue without getting pilloried for it again, so Sony, and specifically Polyphony (because once again, Polyphony added micro-transactions to the prior two GT games) still believes they can get away with it.


Once again, we're what, six years beyond from the FM7 controversy, and both T10, PG and Microsoft haven't done anything of the sort and show no desire to return to it. What has Polyphony done in that same time frame? Figure it out.


Once more, you ignore the fact that T10 and PG, alongside Microsoft themselves, learned their lesson. Even with Polyphony supposedly 'learning' their lesson, they don't come anywhere to eliminating the problem. Absolutely, FM7's controversies are the lesser of two evils, so why the hell you seem intent in trying to posit T10 and Microsoft as worse for this when it's pretty clear Polyphony has no desire to significantly change things, I don't know other then simply console war copium huffing.


this argument would probably be a lot more effective if this wasn't dealing with one of Sony's tent pole franchises, and from a developer that, up to this point, has had an outsized amount of power that comes from being one of the few remaining Japanese first party developers in a corporation that has gone almost entirely Western

Woah, slow down there soldier!

Listen to me carefully when I say this.

ANY platform holder using predatory tactics in their first party games will not get any money out of me until they change the people making those decisions, or I'm satisfied they've changed their ways. I don't care if it's GT, Forza or any game. I ain't no fanboy, I'm probably one of the few people here who own a PS5, Series X and a PC that's better than both. I don't care about platforms and I don't care about franchises, I'll buy what interests me and what I like to play. What I won't do is let a corporation take me for a ****head. And if they change there ways, I'll forgive, but I won't forget and I'll be ready to abandon ship any time they try to screw me over.

Now to the point. You never said that about FM7 when they were about to screw us over, whether it was not as bad as you think or as bad as GT does not matter, you were ready to bend over and take it right up the jaxy because you never seen a problem with it. There's the whole problem right there, A tent pole franchise from a 1st party developer trying to nickel and dime the weak minded and addictive personalities amongst us for there own greed and you rolled out the carpet for it. I'm not doing that here at all, I'm not painting Forza as anything worse as you tried to say, that's your warrior mentality speaking. I see bull**** and I call it. You didn't, that's the difference.

If you going to throw Forza under the game at least get your facts straight. FM7 has NO REAL MONEY transfer in the game. Only in-game credit for loot boxes. GT7 is like 5 millions step above that in terms of predatory behavior. They have tailored their career to incentive MTX. Basically they tried a F2P model on a 70$ game. Now that is evil.

I am so tired of seeing FM7 being throw under the bus around here as the outrage was not justified.

They're both bull**** tactics to prey on people. The sale of lootboxes are deemed so predatory they've been banned in quite a few countries for a reason so don't even try and gloss over that just because you didn't see how good or bad their motives or interpretations were because it never played out, you'll never know. Just be grateful there was enough backlash to get that bollocks taken out when it was or you could be sitting here now thinking differently... Or not, like I said you will never know because people spoke out. You're welcome!

And I'm not throwing FM7 under any bus at all, I have owned all the FM games and I like all the games, ANY mtx in a platform holders game is all bull**** no matter how you wrap it! And I'm not defending PD, Sony or GT in any way whatsoever. Whether it's worse, equal or not as bad is no difference to me. I won't be buying games on PS5 for the foreseeable future, 1st or 3rd party, they are not getting my money until I see a change in the way they're operating. I'll be buying my console games on Xbox from now on because guess what? They did change their ways...

My facts are straight just like my views and here is my view on the subject of GT both online only and mtx.

Being a multiplayer guy in almost all my games I've played for years/decades, it's disappointing but it happens. You accept that because it's the nature of the beast. If a game is not working online, I ain't playing the game until it is. That's made it easy for me to turn a blind eye to the always online, so to speak.

But if I was a single player guy I'd be absolutely furious over this because it needlessly affects them. I have yet to see one single good reason or benefit as to why the whole experience needs to be behind this extra hurdle. In a way (although frustrating now for single players) this is a good thing because it puts the spotlight firmly on this matter for everybody and the heat on the people who thought it was a good idea to make it this way. It also puts the heat on Jim Ryan's plans to try to milk us all to death with his bull**** 10 game MTX/GAAS ideas.

I don't believe in karma, but if I did, this would be it. And if this eats into Sony's projections for the game or reflects badly on Sony's plans of 10 GAAS over the next few years, I'm sure somebody will pay the price for that. If it does, so be it. They dug their own graves.

As for me and PlayStation, this is it. The last game I'll buy whilst Jim Ryan is running the show. I'll use my PS5 for GT7 until my plus is up. I've already finished my backlog over the last 15 months, my IRL friends play crossplay games anyway. I have few, if any ties left to it.

In that post I'm saying heads should roll, I never said that about T10/MS or any company but I'm a PD/Sony apologist apparently!

 

[Symtex]

ng worse as you tried to say, that's your warrior mentality speaking. I see bull**** and I call it. You didn't, that's the difference.

They're both bull**** tactics to prey on people. The sale of lootboxes are deemed so predatory they've been banned in quite a few countries for a reason so don't even try and gloss over that just because you didn't see how good or bad their motives or interpretations were because it never played out, you'll never know. Just be grateful there was enough backlash to get that bollocks taken out when it was or you could be sitting here now thinking differently... Or not, like I said you will never know because people spoke out. You're welcome!
y!

How is in-game credit a "sales of lootboxes" ? It's part of the game mechanic. There is not external money being injected. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[MisterWaffles]

No idea who the hell Jim Sterling is. Just seems to me like some cynical, washed up YouTube edgelord from 2017 who’s covering old news in order to keep the lights on.

Did we really need a whole thread for this?

 

[TrevorPhilips]

How is in-game credit a "sales of lootboxes" ? It's part of the game mechanic. There is not external money being injected. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Oh sweet innocent Symtex 🤣

"Once we confirm that the game economy is balanced and fun for our players out in the wild, we plan to offer Tokens [a real-money currency that works like CR] as a matter of player choice. Some players appreciate using Tokens as a way of gaining immediate access to content that may take many hours to acquire in the normal course of play. There will also be an option within the in-game menu to turn off Tokens entirely."

 

[Silver Arrows]

Now to the point. You never said that about FM7 when they were about to screw us over, whether it was not as bad as you think or as bad as GT does not matter, you were ready to bend over and take it right up the jaxy because you never seen a problem with it.

Because even I could see, at that time, that the controversies surrounding FM7 were nowhere close to what people on this side of the forum nowadays like to posit it as. An issue of very bad timing, yes, but be real with yourself: how bad is microtransactions that are easily disabled and weren't built around the entirety of the game, and a developer and publisher who have not gone back to it until further notice? How bad are 'lootboxes' when they only contain modifiers that make the game harder that give you credits, and driver suits which meant ultimately nothing in the grand scheme of things? The concept is absolutely bad, yes, but even Turn 10 at their worst are nowhere near as scummy as developers/publishers at the time of FM7 were taking it, and since then that has not changed.

Compared to GT who has pushed the envelope further and further, and even after being caught have shown no desire to really change things and removed the micro-transaction systems that they put in the game at general launch. At least T10 did that.

They're both bull**** tactics to prey on people.

Boy, can't wait to pull that clown driver suit that I always wanted even though it's functionally useless to gameplay in general. Or that modifier that places fuel wear onto a three lap race at the Daytona road course or whatever. Because that's literally all the stuff you could get in a loot box in FM7.

And I'm not throwing FM7 under any bus at all

Then why the hell did you even bring up a completely unrelated post in order to gotcha someone, when the only times people like yourself even bring up FM7's controversies is to make GT7 somehow look more virtuous when the opposite is the case in most every facet?

The fact that you're using this to try and cross examine me when the post was made more or less at the beginning of my time on this forum is absolutely hilarious, like your motives aren't crystal clear in that regard. And it still doesn't take away from, at the end of the day, while FM7's controversies were bad mostly due to timing and optics, they are nowhere near the malicious intent to profit like Polyphony, and GT7 have participated in, and seem intent on continuing.

So go bark up another tree, buckwheat.

 

[jrbabbitt]

Did we really need a whole thread for this?

NO

 

[Joey D]

Just seems to me like some cynical, washed up YouTube edgelord from 2017 who’s covering old news in order to keep the lights on.

That's pretty much who they are. Sterling's opinions are typically ones that more gamers agree with than not, but their delivery is rather poor and they tend to take the "safe" road waiting until the initial firestorm happens so they can more or less jump on the bandwagon. Their opinions and gaming content were definitely better several years ago.

 

[Wheatybic]

i love how educated on the topic he is that he pronounces polyphony perfectly.. L. he adds nothing to the conversation

 

[-Fred-]

Oh sweet innocent Symtex 🤣

The token system was long gone by the time FM7 and the lootcrates debacle came out, though. Almost as if they realised no one liked them.


Tokens were a stupid MTX mechanic that I'm glad no longer exists, let's be honest, but I don't feel they were on the same level as GT7's MTX system, because FM4-5-6 didn't cripple their economy to make them an attractive option to playing the game for 20+hours for a single car.

 

[seadog777]

I guess he's looking for that hate click revenues now.

I watched about one third of it and then got exhausted with his potty mouth. Does he have to use the F word every other sentence?

 

[GTboyz]

I guess he's looking for that hate click revenues now.

weird, the video is deleted for me ?

 

[kjeldsen]

this argument would probably be a lot more effective if this wasn't dealing with one of Sony's tent pole franchises, and from a developer that, up to this point, has had an outsized amount of power that comes from being one of the few remaining Japanese first party developers in a corporation that has gone almost entirely Western

Not sure what you are getting at, it's a fact that mtx and dlc earns the publishers huge amounts of money, if it wasn't there games would be much more expensive.

 

[Tornado]

Is that why every other same in Sony's publisher folio is significantly more expensive than GT7?