Oookay, who is up for another tuner challenge?

[Rotary Junkie]

BUT IMO it gains double the points if a great portion of that understeer is removed..,

But then you lose objectivity.

Giving a car more points for making more a difference over stock settings makes it rather unfair to the better driving vehicles... Say we have two cars... One with a quite good base setting and one with crap. Both wind up fairly equal, but the one with the lesser base setting is somewhat worse, however we give it extra points for being better than stock by more. Well, now the one that doesn't drive as well is ranked higher.

Doesn't work out.

EDIT: Oh and the car that started this, Adamgp's CTR2... Having driven it I can say that it is rather crap, mostly due to the car but it definitely could be better tuned as well. The ranking is deserved.

 

[Paulie]

This is a Tuner Challenge though, not a production car cup. Points should focus on the setup and tuning the creator has put in rather than how good the car is overall, even though that should still play a small role.

 

[Adamgp]

Thanks Paulie for sticking up for me. 👍

I've learned my lesson. Next time I won't pick a car that the judges are scared of. I'll enter an evo/wrx/3000gt like everyone else. Seems to me a decent tuner wouldn't be afraid to tune a car that is a bit of a challenge.

Docking points for the tune is one thing, docking points right from the start because you "didn't like the car choice" is b.s. Plenty of other tuners entered cars I otherwise wouldn't drive outside this competition.

The RUF works for me, so I entered it. If RJ and Vince don't like it or can't drive it thats not my problem.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

docking points for the tune is one thing, docking points right from the start because you "didn't like the car choice" is b.s. Plenty of other tuners entered cars i otherwise wouldn't drive outside this competition.

You weren't docked for your car choice, merely for how said car choice resulted in a car that is an understeering pig with fairly poor maximum cornering speeds thanks to no downforce and enough power to rip your face off!!!

 

[Adamgp]

You weren't docked for your car choice, merely for how said car choice resulted in a car that is an understeering pig with fairly poor maximum cornering speeds thanks to no downforce and enough power to rip your face off!!!

What?

I was refering to Vince's comment:

But since car choice is also part of a tuners expertise, I had to dock points.

Next time read the whole thread.

As I stated before, the car works for me. Sorry you cant handle it.

Next tuner competition I'll enter something you can handle. One of the boxy japanese sardine cans with the 30hp hair dryer motor, and apply full downforce to it.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

First off further response to the earlier posts:

This is a Tuner Challenge though, not a production car cup. Points should focus on the setup and tuning the creator has put in rather than how good the car is overall, even though that should still play a small role.

Right, so entering a vehicle that is absolute 🤬 to drive but much improved over stock should win? No. No, no, no. The car that is the BEST to drive should win. We've agreed speed shouldn't be too much a consideration, hence the "Perceived possible improvement" category, which I meant to be taken as a scale of how much better the car could be with nothing other than setup changes. Oh and power to capability...

I see nothing that prevents tuners from using whatever the hell they want in terms of car choice. Certain cars will ALWAYS be handicapped however, and that will prevent them from doing as well as certain others. Generally the older cars can't handle power well and don't have a lot of grip to go around due to lack of tire width; The CTR2 has low front grip and a VCD that is unmodifiable; etc, etc...

I've learned my lesson. Next time I won't pick a car that the judges are scared of. I'll enter an evo/wrx/3000gt like everyone else. Seems to me a decent tuner wouldn't be afraid to tune a car that is a bit of a challenge.

Interesting. I see a StageA and a suck-air 3000GT, both cars are normally not considered for any sort of performance. My N3 entry is handicapped due to age and the lack of grip that comes with it. My FR entry is the same way. Others have entries along the same lines. Did I expect the RX to do well? Nope. Do I expect the Z to do well despite the one review of it being extremely good? Nope, it's damned difficult to drive and loses out big time to the objectively better cars.

The RUF works for me, so I entered it. If RJ and Vince don't like it or can't drive it thats not my problem.

Good for you, you can drive a massively understeery pig of a car that has somewhat poor brakes and a ton of power on S3s. I can't.

What?

I was refering to Vince's comment:

I know you were. I was talking with Vince a bit before he mentioned that. My wager is that Vince picked the wrong bit of English and then it came across wrong.

Why don't you go try and express what you're trying to say in a language other than your native language?

 

[Adamgp]

Seems like his english is fine.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Seems like his english is fine.

True and perhaps better than many at this site...

Not butchering English in terms of grammar most of the time does NOT mean you'll always be able to find the words you're looking for though.

 

[Leonidae]

Okay, kids.. back off. Adam, you will go to that corner and you, RJ, will go to the opposite one until you know not to raise your voice over this. it's just a game.

 

[Adamgp]

Maybe he butchered his words, maybe he didn't.

There has been plenty of time between when he said it and now to retract/correct the statement, and he didn't do it. Leads me to believe he knew exactly what he was saying.

You also could have said something, but you didn't.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Sorry but I tend to get lit up fairly quickly obviously. As you should know from all the times I've "yelled" at you over MSN, Leo.

EDIT:

Maybe he butchered his words, maybe he didn't.

There has been plenty of time between when he said it and now to retract/correct the statement, and he didn't do it. Leads me to believe he knew exactly what he was saying.

You also could have said something, but you didn't.

There's been time perhaps, but then again he hasn't been around. Unless you're completely blind you should've noticed that Vince is only around every few days because he, unlike me, has a life outside of GTP.

Now then, as for me saying something... I have. Multiple times. Hence the HUGE lettering, as it obviously wasn't getting through to you.

 

[Adamgp]

There's been time perhaps, but then again he hasn't been around. Unless you're completely blind you should've noticed that Vince is only around every few days because he, unlike me, has a life outside of GTP.

Now then, as for me saying something... I have. Multiple times. Hence the HUGE lettering, as it obviously wasn't getting through to you.

I'm aware that he's not on here 24/7.

I'm also aware of what he said, and what you said.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I'm aware that he's not on here 24/7.

I'm also aware of what he said, and what you said.

Vince hasn't been here since 5 minutes after that post.

So before you jump to conclusions about what he meant/whether he misworded it/whether he cares, at least wait for him to have at least had a chance to SEE any of the bloody posts!

 

[Adamgp]

Sorry I dont keep track of everyone's online activity.

I shall wait and see what he says.

 

[Leonidae]

TCv4: GTP's best drama thread since..

 

[VTiRoj]

TCv4: GTP's best drama thread since..

Come on guys, chill a bit. Or at least take it to PM's. None of us want to see tuners fall out over a tuner challenge.

 

[PF]

Hey folks, back after a week of bacchanalian joy and 2000km of driving

Are my reviews going to spark flame-wars too? I'm fine with personal criticism or even abuse, but if my FWD reviews spark dozens of negative comments between others it seems a tad counterproductive to the whole idea.

3:40am=sleep, catch ya ron

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Hey folks, back after a week of bacchanalian joy and 2000km of driving

Are my reviews going to spark flame-wars too? I'm fine with personal criticism or even abuse, but if my FWD reviews spark dozens of negative comments between others it seems a tad counterproductive to the whole idea.

3:40am=sleep, catch ya ron

No, your judging should be fine...

Most of this stems from a small bit of miswording on explaining a score rather than the judging results themselves.

 

[PF]

Cheers RJ. I didn't read the last few pages of this thread cause am doing my best to do a blind test, ie where I don''t know the tuner of the car. Haven't checked the judging thread closely, but are RWD (13 entries) and FWD (!0) the ones to do?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Yep, we have a few for N3, then one AWD and one FWD.

 

[VTiRoj]

I'm kinda disappointed there was only 4 or so N3 entires. I was under the impression everyone would be entering that division so I went ahead and built something that performs like a S3 car.

I suppose if theres ever a TCv5 I can let the M3 loose properly, S3 power!

 

[shoman]

I'm kinda disappointed there was only 4 or so N3 entires. I was under the impression everyone would be entering that division so I went ahead and built something that performs like a S3 car.

I suppose if theres ever a TCv5 I can let the M3 loose properly, S3 power!

I thought about it,but never tuned a N3 tires before.

 

[Leonidae]

I just couldn't be bothered with N3's.. I know that I had a good tune for them, but still.. kinda pointless.

 

[mafia_boy]

TCv4: GTP's best drama thread since..

........since TCv3.

I had a car for N3, but I couldn't type fast enough to get 3 entries in, so the other car stayed as part of the GME launch and gained some S3's.

 

[VTiRoj]

........since TCv3.

TCv3 didnt have this much drama. Actually TCv3 was mostly us two being... us!

 

[Skygrasper550]

enough drama already.., we want scores!! we want judging!!

*still waits patiently for RWD and FWD..,*

 

[Paulie]

Right, so entering a vehicle that is absolute 🤬 to drive but much improved over stock should win? No. No, no, no.

Err, hell yeah! Although be careful with your words, the way I see it, if a car is horrible as stock, and SO greatly improved then the end result can't be that bad. If an experienced and skilled tuner chose a piece of crap and showed how good he was and made it a respectable car, yet lost to a complete novice who chose an awesome car and made barely any difference to the handling, THAT would be quite ludicrous in a Tuner Challenge. I'm not saying AdamGP should be better placed, and I'm not saying anyone here is a novice, in fact, I am not referring the the case at hand at all, just making a point.

 

[EA11R]

I'm terribly sorry for this, but I feel I must:

The ideal system of judging would take both of those situations into account, and is entirely conceivable. In fact, it was implemented in the Vintage Tuning Competition, which returned pitifully few judging results. Essentially, a rubric which only tests the tuned versions requires half as much driving and testing as a rubric which tests both the tuned and untuned state of the cars.

It's a simple matter of the lazy public. The new rubric largely ignores the quality of the base car with the purpose of making judging a less labour-intensive process. If it's easier, it's more likely that more people will do it, and we are definitely in the range where we want more results.

Understood?

 

[Adamgp]

Err, hell yeah! Although be careful with your words, the way I see it, if a car is horrible as stock, and SO greatly improved then the end result can't be that bad. If an experienced and skilled tuner chose a piece of crap and showed how good he was and made it a respectable car, yet lost to a complete novice who chose an awesome car and made barely any difference to the handling, THAT would be quite ludicrous in a Tuner Challenge. I'm not saying AdamGP should be better placed, and I'm not saying anyone here is a novice, in fact, I am not referring the the case at hand at all, just making a point.

I have to agree with everything Paulie said here. I'm not not looking for better placement, but I'd like some more explanation from vince about his judging procedure when he comes back online.

 

[Vince247]

I have to agree with everything Paulie said here. I'm not not looking for better placement, but I'd like some more explanation from vince about his judging procedure when he comes back online.

Just what I didn't want to happen happens...

My explanation:

I just meant that, if the tuner could have noticed that the car is quite out of control and not much is to be healed and if he could make the decision to pick another car where he really could show us what he's worth, then, and only then the judge could make the decision to dock points based on car choice. I did not intend to give you the impression that I just docked points because I already hated the car before I had even driven it. Believe me I love RUFs, especially the BTR Greycap has tuned at MFT. Adorable!

Maybe I could have made this more clear, but what I meant with docking points for a bad car choice was never meant to discourage the tuner to choose for a difficult car. I totally agree with you that a harder base should earn more points for the tune even if it sucks compared to others. That is just quite simple logic, better/harder work = higher loan/score deserved.

This sadly just wasn't the case in this tournament, or not enough...

But when I was driving your tuned CTR2, I just couldn't drive the way I liked to because of the understeer. It just didn't fit me.

Any questions? Feel free to pm me, I get a mail notification of any PM I get here, so then you'll have a faster response. (I can read and reply on my iPhone, if I want to, just don't really like to type longer replies like this on it, takes too long.)