[OPINION] - Gran Turismo will never be good again.

[Samus]

The biggest question in all of this is, is it legitimately PD’s fault, or are they being pushed/made by Sony to meet shorter/stricter deadlines, add in certain extra money making features, and making the games easier/shorter to finish with less content. Personally, I feel like Sony has more to do with these changes than PD, but that’s just my opinion of course. I feel like Sony’s want to make money, is finally trumping PD’s want/ability to make us a great game.

Sony gave PD 6 years and 60 million dollars and the end result was GT5 v1.00.

 

[Silver Arrows]

No doubt Sony has a hand in the state of the series but there has been a pretty serious disconnect with the development of this series for over a decade.

How much of that hand is truly present, though? Because I know for a fact that micro-transactions are Polyphony's sword to fall on, because this is also the same developer who inserted MTX's in their previous two games, and in the case of GT Sport, inserted them post launch on a player base who more or less accepted them. It ultimately doesn't matter whether Sony is to blame - maybe they did nudge PD in the direction of ruthless monetization. But the fact of the matter is that the dye was already cast, and no matter which way you put it, it absolutely doesn't make PD's actions somehow justifiable. And really, it just feels to me like convenient buck-passing that seems oh so evident with GT's failures since 4. That it's never really Polyphony and Kaz's fault. It's the Cell architecture in the PS3 that made developing GT5 the torturous process that it was. It was Forza rising up and offering a compelling product that made GT lose any and all steam during the seventh generation of consoles. It's Sony that made Polyphony put in micro-transactions in this game.

At some point, something's gotta give and Polyphony needs to take the blame. Kaz, specifically, considering he's the figurehead. But he hasn't, and I doubt he will. He'll continue to obfuscate and generally try to pass off the blame to someone else, and fans follow in step of that.

 

[WRECKU]

Its state at release is of little importance.

Really.

 

[Cheshyrkat]

I dunno, I just feel for some reason that Sony is the one behind a lot of this, but that’s not to say that I’m in any way correct.

I’d argue that second point though, for me, GTS was the best GT of the entire series. I went from an offline only, automatic driving, average player, to discovering online racing, championship races, and making it into a couple of Top 16 FIA races by the end of its lifespan. I’ve never had more fun playing a racing game in my entire life. It was by no means perfect, but it was definitely my personal favourite. 👍

Sport is great for those that enjoy it. It extends playability and adds more ways to enjoy the game. But, on its own it isnt GT. It is a mode, an extention, a different half, that should just be a part of GT and personally was a huge middle finger to the original fans when it released as stand alone.

How much of that hand is truly present, though? Because I know for a fact that micro-transactions are Polyphony's sword to fall on, because this is also the same developer who inserted MTX's in their previous two games, and in the case of GT Sport, inserted them post launch on a player base who more or less accepted them. It ultimately doesn't matter whether Sony is to blame - maybe they did nudge PD in the direction of ruthless monetization. But the fact of the matter is that the dye was already cast, and no matter which way you put it, it absolutely doesn't make PD's actions somehow justifiable. And really, it just feels to me like convenient buck-passing that seems oh so evident with GT's failures since 4. That it's never really Polyphony and Kaz's fault. It's the Cell architecture in the PS3 that made developing GT5 the torturous process that it was. It was Forza rising up and offering a compelling product that made GT lose any and all steam during the seventh generation of consoles. It's Sony that made Polyphony put in micro-transactions in this game.

At some point, something's gotta give and Polyphony needs to take the blame. Kaz, specifically, considering he's the figurehead. But he hasn't, and I doubt he will. He'll continue to obfuscate and generally try to pass off the blame to someone else, and fans follow in step of that.

We are in agreement. Majority of this is PD. Sony may have had a hand or nudged but I fully think this is mostly PD and has been a systemic issue for a long long time.

 

[Rustyhole]

Kaz & Team PD create/release content at the speed of a car driven by my grandmother.
Gamers consume content at the speed of an F1 car doing a lap of Brands Hatch Short.

Kaz is a dreamer & visionary, but he shouldn't be the Lead/CEO or whatever he is. Leave that to someone who can make the hard decisions of what is actually doable.
Kaz wants everything and spreads the team too thin. Amazed there haven't been any reports of dissent in the ranks.

Astronomically accurate skies? Yes. (but who cares enough to actually check or know enough to know. Pretty close to zero I'm sure) WASTE OF TIME
24hr time effects - nope too hard - yet races on many tracks go from day to night in a half a lap (Laguna Seca anyone??) - if it can be done on one track; should be able to be done for all or you need better programmers
Music Rally ??? - who asked for this (probably the devs to break the monotony of testing and repetitive races)
Pit animations that kill any sense of urgency... to say nothing of your position on exit

My grade on this game keeps taking a dive every time i play... [now uninstalled]

 

[RedRockValley]

Kaz wants everything and spreads the team too thin. Amazed there haven't been any reports of dissent in the ranks.

Because PD themselves are pretty damn secretive. I don't think much is known about their development process, at least nowadays.

 

[Cheshyrkat]

Because PD themselves are pretty damn secretive. I don't think much is known about their development process, at least nowadays.

True but it is hard to argue that there isnt a lot of minutia in the games the likes of which could be scrapped for the betterment of the series. Reminds me of a game series that advertised calipers with graphical actuation. All I could think of is neat, nobody will ever see that lol.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

There is so much whining on the forum lately lol. Calm down. Put the game down for a while and go outside.

I put the game down a few days after release, got a refund, and went back to GT4. I managed a few days of GT7 because I have a young family so I don’t play for long periods, otherwise I would have refunded after a day.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Oh, that's right... How could I have forgotten about the awful pitstops. You enter a pitstop and the car vanishes and all of the scene is just a damn video that no one outside the pits can see. Who asked for this change?
Not to mention they didn't even bother to do the propper tyre and fuel animations for each of the cars.

 

[BigJimmy]

Oh, that's right... How could I have forgotten about the awful pitstops. You enter a pitstop and the car vanishes and all of the scene is just a damn video that no one outside the pits can see. Who asked for this change?
Not to mention they didn't even bother to do the propper tyre and fuel animations for each of the cars.

Do you want the dev cycle for each new car to be even longer?

 

[ICEYOU3]

This is entirely my opinion, you are of course free to disagree...

I've slowly come to realise that Gran Turismo will never again reach the heights of the older editions, especially GT4 (the pinnacle in my opinion).
They continue to shift many copies each time because of a huge fan base built in large part because of the quality of previous games, but each version since the aforementioned pinnacle has been getting steadily worse and, let's be honest, more bizarre.

GT5 and 6 had huge issues with ridiculous XP systems, star collections to open new events, premium/standard cars, the introduction of microtransactions, criminally low amount of races in each game (compared to GT4), B-Spec having twice the length of races (and being much more restricted as well, and thus those races were more competitive and challenging), a continued lack of damage model, cars that sound like a hollow bath tub when they crash... I could go on and on. Both games were huge missed opportunites.

GT Sport was never intended to be a single player offline game with a career so we can kind of give them a pass - even though the career they added has easily the worst AI I've ever encountered in a racing game anywhere on any platform, so they had a chance to create a great GT experience because there was loads of races added, but then they just had to add dreadful "afterthought" AI to ruin it. Just... why?

GT7 is the worst of the lot. It was sold as a deception; reviewed before the truth was finally revealed, which alone is unforgivable. A shockingly low number of races that take less than a day to complete, always-online nonsense, server issues, "fixing" the game by further pushing players into microtransactions using blatant and disgraceful FOMO tactics, endlessly promising to improve something they should have simply made good before it was even released.

Again, I could go on and on, but Gran Turismo is starting to feel too much like Game of Thrones; if you think this will have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. PD are completely delusional and utterly detached from their 25+ year fan base, they have a bizarre view of what would make a good game and they continue to release half-assed rubbish time and again to their far too loyal customers. I guarantee if and when GT8 is released, it will be yet another farce. I guarantee it.

Try Forza? 🤷‍♂️

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Try Forza? 🤷‍♂️

I still have every version of Gran Turismo (aside from GT7 which I refunded) and every version of Forza Motorsport to date.

So yeah, I’ve “tried” Forza.

 

[Benny44]

I really feel that there are many similar threads, saying the exact same things they're upset with, by the exact same people. It's such a negative echo chamber. Of course the game isn't perfect, but I think when we're looking back at GT4 or GT2 we have rose-tinted glasses. It seems games are either awful or amazing, with no in between now.

 

[CBH]

This is entirely my opinion, you are of course free to disagree...

I've slowly come to realise that Gran Turismo will never again reach the heights of the older editions, especially GT4 (the pinnacle in my opinion).
They continue to shift many copies each time because of a huge fan base built in large part because of the quality of previous games, but each version since the aforementioned pinnacle has been getting steadily worse and, let's be honest, more bizarre.

GT5 and 6 had huge issues with ridiculous XP systems, star collections to open new events, premium/standard cars, the introduction of microtransactions, criminally low amount of races in each game (compared to GT4), B-Spec having twice the length of races (and being much more restricted as well, and thus those races were more competitive and challenging), a continued lack of damage model, cars that sound like a hollow bath tub when they crash... I could go on and on. Both games were huge missed opportunites.

GT Sport was never intended to be a single player offline game with a career so we can kind of give them a pass - even though the career they added has easily the worst AI I've ever encountered in a racing game anywhere on any platform, so they had a chance to create a great GT experience because there was loads of races added, but then they just had to add dreadful "afterthought" AI to ruin it. Just... why?

GT7 is the worst of the lot. It was sold as a deception; reviewed before the truth was finally revealed, which alone is unforgivable. A shockingly low number of races that take less than a day to complete, always-online nonsense, server issues, "fixing" the game by further pushing players into microtransactions using blatant and disgraceful FOMO tactics, endlessly promising to improve something they should have simply made good before it was even released.

Again, I could go on and on, but Gran Turismo is starting to feel too much like Game of Thrones; if you think this will have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention. PD are completely delusional and utterly detached from their 25+ year fan base, they have a bizarre view of what would make a good game and they continue to release half-assed rubbish time and again to their far too loyal customers. I guarantee if and when GT8 is released, it will be yet another farce. I guarantee it.

I agree playing these games below over the years, only GT7 is the most ridiculous structured game out of all of them.
GT2
GT3
GT4
GT5
GT6
GT Sport

 

[Nielsen]

To be fair, nothing in our lifetime will surpass anything that spawned from year 2004. Everything peaked back then.

 

[ICEYOU3]

To be fair, nothing in our lifetime will surpass anything that spawned from year 2004. Everything peaked back then.

Completely agree, most who gamed during 2004 should remember how epic the releases were that year.

 

[NotThePrez]

I really feel that there are many similar threads, saying the exact same things they're upset with, by the exact same people.

Yes, probably because GT7 has some very, very significant issues that are worth discussing and bringing up when relevant, especially since it's known that PD pays attention to this message board.

It's such a negative echo chamber.

No...it really isn't. The overwhelming amount of discussion in this subforum is incredibly positive, or at the very least decently split between positive and neutral topics. There's always going to be some negative discussion because, well, that comes with having a section of the website dedicated to talking about a particular subject.

One of, if not the best thing about GTP, is that both negative and positive discussion about various topics is freely allowed here, so long as the posts follow the guidelines in the AUP (most of which basically boil down to "don't be an asshole"). The fact that such discussion can take place means that this area is not at all an echo chamber, though I've noticed that there's a number of posters who will always try and belittle valid criticism as nothing but whining. To me, that's just as bad as posting actually useless negativity (or useless, over-the-top positivity) for the sake of it.

Of course the game isn't perfect, but I think when we're looking back at GT4 or GT2 we have rose-tinted glasses. It seems games are either awful or amazing, with no in between now.

As someone who is currently playing through both of those games, hard disagree. Both GT2 and GT4 still hold up very well to this day due to having, among other things, a solid career structure, car selection (for their time), and most importantly, a respect for the player's time and freedom of choice. There was no worrying about only getting certain cars at certain times and potentially missing vehicles, because you, the player had total control over the time aspect of the games. There wasn't as much worrying about having to grind credits, because there were a variety of well-paying events, a couple farms that weren't overly time-consuming, and you could repeat events to earn and sell prize cars to help bolster your earnings (and what you earned was based only on your finishing position). There were very few one-time events, and in the ones that were present, it was usually only the prize cars that were one-time prizes with no effect on the ability to earn credits, and even those events made up a very small portion of the activities in either title. All of the important customization options (while being quite bare both for the time and to this day) were available from the get-go, and the only things stopping you was your car choice and how much money you had.

GT2 in particular also produces a much better on-track experience imo than a lot of the newer GTs, though a good bit of that is down to the game having some very significant rubberbanding.

The fact of the matter is that GT has been on a steady decline since GT5, and a good number of issues from GT5 onwards are still present in GT7, despite Kaz constantly saying otherwise, on top of the additional issues introduced in GT7. Considering that PD themselves stated that GT7 was a return to form, and it's clearly anything but, a lot of people are understandably going to be upset about that level of dishonesty.

 

[Imari]

Of course the game isn't perfect, but I think when we're looking back at GT4 or GT2 we have rose-tinted glasses.

Having gone back and played GT4 this last week to see if this was the case - eeh, sorta not really. It didn't look great by modern standards but it wasn't unpleasant. The physics weren't great by modern standards but it drove better than I remembered. The AI was poor but better than I remembered. I had a wide selection of first cars to buy and the game immediately offered me a pretty wide range of things to do.

GT4 is still a pretty good game. I'm not one of those people that thinks it was the best GT game ever, but in terms of it's design it's a better put together game than GT7.

But even without looking at any past Gran Turismo game, GT7 isn't exactly spectacular when it comes to modern racing games. It looks very pretty and it drives fine for a game with it's target audience. It has decent amount of cars and tracks, but they're all pretty disparate. It has very limited single player gameplay content unless players spend time making their own races. There's noted problems with the difficulty scaling and AI. The online is clunky. There's very limited community features and the barest hint of a roadmap of what to expect in the future. It has a mildly aggressive microtransaction scheme and it's unclear how Polyphony intends to use that in the future.

It's just not that good a game. It's not bad, but outside of the GT brand there's nothing really special about it. It's just $70 worth of random car game. Scapes is the only standout feature in the entire game, and that's a feature that's entirely not about driving the cars.

You're seeing pushback because Gran Turismo has over the space of 15 years or so gone from industry leader to bog standard also-ran pushed out to get an easy paycheck. To be fair, Need for Speed still makes plenty of money, just nobody talks about them as being amazing games the way that they did in the days of Porsche Unleashed or Underground or Most Wanted. Maybe that's what Polyphony wants to be.

I think that would be sad. I think it is a little sad that Gran Turismo has already fallen so far that a strong defence of the game is "it's not so bad, the driving is still pretty fun!" That's the bare minimum for a driving game. If it wasn't at least fun to drive then nobody should bother playing it. It's what's offered on top of that that's so entirely lacking.

 

[05XR8]

Hmm. Many things that were fine for a six car grid, just doesn’t work with 16-20 cars. Those of us that choose to, can play six car grid races all day, now that we have the tools. However, it’s a fine line when doing so and being able to have fun the way we want to play the game.

I’ve done a lot of testing with the 361 cars in my garage. Trying set ups, grid sizes, AI strength, weather, stuff I’ve saved and many races deleted. I’m not even thinking about how it was in past games. I‘m going by the digital game in my system.

AI is still hit & miss. It’s the main focus for solo play. No matter how many players play Sport Mode, it’s the one single feature tht has to be better. PD can fumble about with weather, updated content, livery stuff, photo options, etc. To acquire the means to buy the main objects of this car game, PD have to do better.

I say how much I’m enjoying racing the AI, but it ain’t perfect. I have my frustrations with this game, but the videos I post, are a breakthrough after many trials.

Last thing on my short list is the power adjustments. This is another thing PD need to do better with. Do they understand homologated race cars do not need 100bhp increase turbo options? Maybe a Group C car can have the option for Le Mans and Fuji. A GT4 car? Nope. GT3 car? Nope. It’s something like that, which can save PD part of their headaches, with tuning programming.

I know many of us spent our money and we shouldn’t have to wait and see(I think it’s been the worst two months for a GT game), but if Update 1.11 is the time PD started to rebuild trust in this franchise, we’ll see what PD do from Monday.

 

[TwIsTeD_83]

I play from the Japanese version of GT1 and I only missed GT6.

GT7 is simultaneously the best AND the worst GT to date.

I have faith that in a few months time most of the bad will go away and we will truly have the best in the series.

 

[Junkman55]

Where in your stack of library games can you fine other than car racing games that by changing the game pad to a wheel setup you can make an inexpensive simulator. There are two parts to GT7 one for gamers and one for Esports. Racing cars is all about competition not gaming that is my opinion.

 

[Ray52]

I like Gran Turismo Sport. It looks good and the cars are drivable out-of-the-box with no tuning needed unless I just want to blow the AI cars into the weeds. Actually, I usually de-tune the cars a bit just to make my custom races a bit more of a challenge. The tuning in GTS is so delightfully simple and quick compared to GT7. GT7 tuning is complicated yet still not realistic, and is also costly.

GT7 looks good but many of the cars handle badly (insanely loose) unless I spend time and credits tuning them. I don't enjoy tuning/testing. It is tedious. I like to race and let someone else work on the cars.

I bought GT7 just to get the Daytona Road Course. Got a Gr3 Mustang (pretty good V8 sounds) and run Daytona now and then. Other than that, GT7 is of little interest to me.

I hate career modes in racing games. I don't like unlocking. Just gimme the cars and tracks for my money! I just want lots of real world tracks and free, quick access to the tracks and the cars. Race cars, please. I have no use for road cars in a racing game.

So if Polyphony Digital/Sony happen to read this they will have one more paying customer's opinion. Is there a way to directly tell them?

 

[Grimm6Jack]

To be fair, nothing in our lifetime will surpass anything that spawned from year 2004. Everything peaked back then.

Off the top of my head:

Gran Turismo 4
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater
Half-Life 2
Need For Speed: Underground 2


Yeah, really hard to find one year that surpasses 2004. The first three games I listed alone made that year.

 

[HickOnACrick]

I am enjoying GT7 more now. But I approach it with a different mindset. Get a car, race it, find out what it needs to go faster, make it faster, accrue more points by racing it, add more upgrades, race it more to get enough points for that next upgrade, all while learning about tuning. If I really like the car, I'll spend some time in livery editor making it look cool.

I like the challenge of having a ****** car and figuring out how to make it faster, and needing to race in order to gain points to make it faster. My favorite car in GT7 right now is a Nissan Sylvia...a car I knew nothing about before it was part of the passport thing, but have since raced almost exclusively as I am upgrading it.

I like making the choices between means of powering up vs. just hitting the "power up" button. Turbo? Low end? Supercharger?

At first, I missed receiving all the gift cars, but now I enjoy the challenge so much I find I spend more time driving cars with less performance in GT7 than the high performance cars I have in GT Sport.

GT7, especially after playing GT Sport in its most recent iteration, is a lot of delayed gratification. I am fine with that, I am old. My Z-gen son has different expectations.

Having said all that, the music rally is...really? Hooked on Classics?? And I MUST endure it??? Do I really need to go through the ____licensing procedure again if I already have a ___license from GT Sport ????

 

[Imari]

To be fair, nothing in our lifetime will surpass anything that spawned from year 2004. Everything peaked back then.

Nah, but congratulations on an excellent impression of a crotchety old man.

Yeah, really hard to find one year that surpasses 2004. The first three games I listed alone made that year.

1997?

 

[ICEYOU3]

Off the top of my head:

Gran Turismo 4
Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater
Half-Life 2
Need For Speed: Underground 2


Yeah, really hard to find one year that surpasses 2004. The first three games I listed alone made that year.

Spider-Man 2, Tekken 5, Ace Combat 5, Sly Cooper 2 etc... It's like every dev gave it their all that year.


Again it was ridiculous! I look back at 2004 quite fondly. Christmas was lit🔥

 

[Grimm6Jack]

1997?

Not my time mate. My first memories of gaming started in 1999-2000, I started playing GT1 in 2000, same year as GT2 as well which I was gifted to me right after I finished GT1.

In 1997 I was only 3 lol.

Regardless, how can 1997 have better games than 2004? Beggining of the 2000s is supposed to be like the golden age of gaming.

 

[Benny44]

I play from the Japanese version of GT1 and I only missed GT6.

GT7 is simultaneously the best AND the worst GT to date.

I have faith that in a few months time most of the bad will go away and we will truly have the best in the series.

I think this is very well said. The bones of the game are good, the biggest flaws are in things that can be fixed, which is better than the other way round

 

[ICEYOU3]

In 1997 I was only 3 lol.

I was too young to remember the hype of those times as well, but I have a bunch of retro games from the late 90's so I can definitely tell it was an exciting time to be a gamer then. It was the peak of the 5th Generation. (Sorry for going off topic mods)

 

[avilab]

I've stayed with GT7 up until now because my OCD kicked in on collecting all the original 424 cars, so Grind City, meaning not a lot of fun. I'm now very close to that car goal, and after that, I really am not sure I will play the game much more. Maybe when online is better supported, AI is improved, more car interaction within the garage (car engine revving and open/close doors etc), then I'll come back and see if I want to spend more time. Hell, even add a custom garage with capacity of maybe 5-10 of our favorite cars so we can geek out on them. PD, for heaven's sake, make this game FUN, make it interactive, make it so that it draws us in with great racing plans!