[OPINION] - Gran Turismo will never be good again.

[RandomCarGuy17]

I'm in belief that Gran Turismo will eventually become fantastic again, but the condition on how that happens is sadly that Kazunori Yamauchi would have to retire first for that to happen. A new person with a more open mind would have to take his place for GT to evolve the way people want it to. Until then, it's going to be the same case probably with each game.

It's either that or somehow Kaz's worldview changes where he's not having his head in the clouds anymore, but I don't see that happening.

 

[ICEYOU3]

I'm in belief that Gran Turismo will eventually become fantastic again, but the condition on how that happens is sadly that Kazunori Yamauchi would have to retire first for that to happen. A new person with a more open mind would have to take his place for GT to evolve the way people want it to. Until then, it's going to be the same case probably with each game.

It's either that or somehow Kaz's worldview changes where he's not having his head in the clouds anymore, but I don't see that happening.

I'd love see him do something else, perhaps another mecha game and take a break from GT.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

I'd love see him do something else, perhaps another mecha game and take a break from GT.

I'll only be okay with that if they get another studio. With how long a GT game takes to make, having the current studio focus on other projects means I'll be waiting even longer for a GT title. I don't want that.

 

[Samus]

The core problem, IMO, is that the game just hasn't evolved enough, especially in the HD era.

Everything that made GT1-4 great is mostly still present in GT7. The problem is, it isn't 1997-2004 any more. The world has moved on. Gaming has moved on. But GT, on the whole, hasn't. What was impressive and fresh back then isn't any more. Even amazing graphics don't really cut it any more.

I'm not going to get into every aspect because I've done it many times already in other topics but there are a few obvious examples.

License Tests. The tests in GT7 are near as makes no difference exactly the same experience at GT1-6. There has been no evolution of what was initially a pretty interesting and fresh idea in 1997. They created a real world racing academy in 2007, they turned gamers into real racers through extensive racing tests and training. None of that transferred to the game.

AI. Hasn't massively improved at all. Not much more to say.

The overall game structure hasn't had any significant evolution. If you hypothetically equalise the graphics and sounds you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between GT1 and GT6 if you gave them to an alien who'd never seen any GT games. They present essentially the same game. GT7 is the closest to change with the cafe mode but it's not enough, and it wasn't particularly good in final execution either. Have you seen anyone, gamer or critic, seriously celebrate the cafe mode? No.

Sure, they've added basic online racing once that became a thing but if I were to put you on the spot and ask you what the biggest change to Gran Turismo has been since 2004, what would you say? Photo Mode? A livery editor? There really isn't much to speak of. GTS changed the focus towards online but in terms of what was actually offered, it was nothing new. It was basically GT6 quick races with a penalty system borrowed from iRacing and two FIA championships and then all the usual stuff tacked on.

All GT7 managed to offer for something new was music rally and music replay. That was it. All that time, and two music modes and Cafe Mode was all they could offer for totally new features. Everything else was carried over from past games, mostly as-is.

Of course GT7 will still sell in droves because of reputation and lack of any direct competition on Playstation but it's not doing anything interesting, and the series is going nowhere without big change.

 

[Conquerer]

GT5 Prologue: Catch the rabbit
GT5: Catch the rabbit
GT6: Catch the rabbit
GT Sport: Catch the rabbit
GT7: Catch the rabbit

Yeah... that says it all. I've long lost any hope for PD to make a good game again. Maybe if the leadership changes there's a chance, but under Kaz the writing is on the wall. They will continue to make the same mistakes and have no understanding whatsoever of what makes a game fun or inherently well-designed. Just rinse and repeat the same old stuff without learning anything.

 

[Gerarghini]

Maybe if PD didn't make legendarily terrible decisions in the name of "realism." Like wow man I forgot I paid $70 for this game and have to wait for the dealerships to refresh like its a damn F2P mobile game

 

[Imari]

Regardless, how can 1997 have better games than 2004? Beggining of the 2000s is supposed to be like the golden age of gaming.

How can 2004 have better games than 2022? You know it doesn't work like that. There have been numerous times that could be described as "golden ages for gaming" when there were big changes in tech or a number of foundational or just really good games came out. It's about periods in time where there were really great things going on in gaming, not that the games then remain objectively the best even when compared to newer titles.

Also, you might want to look up when Gran Turismo 1 came out. FWIW, 1997 also had Final Fantasy 7, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Goldeneye, Grand Theft Auto, Super Mario 64, Star Fox 64, Mario Kart 64, Tekken 3, Age of Empires, Quake II, The Curse of Monkey Island, Fallout, and Diablo as well as the original Gran Turismo.

These are all games that would turn out to be hugely influential in their genres and many of them are the start of (or breakout entry of) major franchises that still exist more than 20 years later. 1996 had just had Tomb Raider, Pokemon and Resident Evil, so you can see that it was a time when a surprising amount of "modern" game genres started to take form.

I'm surprised that anyone that's a Gran Turismo fan wouldn't put 1997 in at least for contention for best year in video games ever. We wouldn't be here on this forum without it.

 

[Silver Arrows]

The ultimate issue with all this navel-gazing about 'the past' happening in this thread is that ultimately, it's reductive and circle-jerky. Sure, we as humans find ourselves naturally drawn to considering the games and years of our formative youth to be 'the best' but it ultimately is just preaching to the choir, and it doesn't stop people from realizing that there are good, new games coming out now, that are pushing the boundaries not just graphically, but also gameplay wise and especially story. Gaming, like so many other mediums, doesn't go back, it only goes forward, and really, there are things to be excited about now. Within our little world, we have more choice then ever before in the sim racing space.

This is ultimately the world that Kaz and Polyphony occupy - a bizarro world where 2004 never ended, and the ideas and beliefs that guided GT to that point are still relevant. They aren't, and they never will be. Yet Kaz still believes he can basically recreate GT4, continually, and have it be worthwhile. There's already a GT4 out there. I can play it, and bonus, not have to worry about servers going offline.

I want something new from the GT franchise, and not simply the same game done three times over. And I'm sure that's a prevailing mindset among a not insignificant group of people.

 

[Samus]

I want something new from the GT franchise, and not simply the same game done three times over. And I'm sure that's a prevailing mindset among a not insignificant group of people.

As I said if you changed GT1 so it has the graphics of GT6, the same number of cars in a race and absolutely nothing else an alien would have a lot of trouble telling the difference between GT1 and GT6. Everything else is virtually already the same.

They've just been making the same game over and over again.

 

[kilesa4568]

With everyone comparing new GT's to previous versions, I'm glad I was too busy putting food on the table when 3 and 4 came out to follow suit.

I tend to judge games on their own merits and while I'm not the biggest fan of the physics or games built on a live service where it takes years to see a finished product, 7 still looks different enough to grab my attention. I haven't got a PS5 yet but I've had a look on YouTube at the game in all its glory and it looks gorgeous. I'm even happy with how it sounds.

The physics is the only reason I'm not playing and i don't mind waiting till it's better.

Will I buy another GT? Probably not. I really don't like paying an upfront fee for a drip fed game.

 

[ICEYOU3]

GT5 Prologue: Catch the rabbit
GT5: Catch the rabbit
GT6: Catch the rabbit
GT Sport: Catch the rabbit
GT7: Catch the rabbit

Yeah... that says it all. I've long lost any hope for PD to make a good game again. Maybe if the leadership changes there's a chance, but under Kaz the writing is on the wall. They will continue to make the same mistakes and have no understanding whatsoever of what makes a game fun or inherently well-designed. Just rinse and repeat the same old stuff without learning anything.

Hmm here's a question are there any other notable figures within PD that you think could take over Kaz's position?

 

[RedRockValley]

Hmm here's a question are there any other notable figures within PD that you think could take over Kaz's position?

Translator-san!

 

[Imari]

Hmm here's a question are there any other notable figures within PD that you think could take over Kaz's position?

Not that we know of. Polyphony is notoriously reclusive, and Kaz is really the only person they let speak publically outside of a few dev interviews on their website.

Realistically though, if you're trying to make a leadership change like that you're better off hiring from outside the company. There's a good chance anyone from inside will just have the same experience and the same weaknesses that Kaz had - anyone who had major disagreements with the direction of the game wouldn't have lasted 25 years waiting for their chance to take the reins.

It might even be good to poach someone from outside of the racing games space altogether - Polyphony are capable of making a good racing game foundation (I mean, they have one now) but they need the gameplay structure to go along with it, and someone from an RPG or adventure game background might be the missing piece of the puzzle to create something really special on that foundation.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

I think this is very well said. The bones of the game are good, the biggest flaws are in things that can be fixed, which is better than the other way round

I definitely agree with this. GT7 in it's current state is one of the worst (if not the worst) main title GT game.

However, at the same time, it has the potential to be the very best title. It has all the foundations for it and everything can be fixed or added later.

But it's just that paying upfront 80€ for a game with such half-assed cotent and more bugs and glitches than we could count, not to mention the inability to play offline, it's just not good enough.
It becomes worse when you realize that between GT6 and GT7, you had almost 9 years of development and a huge monetary help from Sony.
9 Years and several dozens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars later, and GT7 at launch (and even now) is the best they can do? Not good at all... Quite the contrary, this is really atrocious.

I look at GT3 and GT4, which only had a bit over 2 years difference and the differences between both games were quite glaring, GT4 was simply a massive improvement on almost all fronts, physics, content (photo mode, B-Spec, missions, other special events), cars/tracks, graphics... It was just another level of GT experience even if the foundation, as Samus has stated, is the same from GT1 till now.
That was just 2 years difference, and they massively delivered.

Yet, now, with even more resources than they had back then (since it's also thanks to their old games reputation that Sony has been giving them a huge amount of resources) they still fail to give a magnificent game in a 9 year time period...

9 years man... Come on.

How can 2004 have better games than 2022? You know it doesn't work like that. There have been numerous times that could be described as "golden ages for gaming" when there were big changes in tech or a number of foundational or just really good games came out. It's about periods in time where there were really great things going on in gaming, not that the games then remain objectively the best even when compared to newer titles.

Also, you might want to look up when Gran Turismo 1 came out. FWIW, 1997 also had Final Fantasy 7, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, Goldeneye, Grand Theft Auto, Super Mario 64, Star Fox 64, Mario Kart 64, Tekken 3, Age of Empires, Quake II, The Curse of Monkey Island, Fallout, and Diablo as well as the original Gran Turismo.

These are all games that would turn out to be hugely influential in their genres and many of them are the start of (or breakout entry of) major franchises that still exist more than 20 years later. 1996 had just had Tomb Raider, Pokemon and Resident Evil, so you can see that it was a time when a surprising amount of "modern" game genres started to take form.

I'm surprised that anyone that's a Gran Turismo fan wouldn't put 1997 in at least for contention for best year in video games ever. We wouldn't be here on this forum without it.

So FF7, SM64, Tekken 3 and Fallout came out in 1997. I also did play those games, and obviously played GT1. GT1 was the 2nd ever game I've ever played, the first was Driver, but I also had Gran Turismo, and as soon as I tried Gran Turismo, I think I never played Driver again.
Yeah, those games were definitely a huge deal. Gran Turismo in particular blew everyone's minds because it was the first 3D car racing game. It was on it's own in the industry and was indeed a revolution in racing gaming.
And I also loved playing FF7 and the original GTA.

But for me, those games didn't blew my mind in the same way the 3D era came about.

Look at GTA:3 when it came out. It made such a huge impact. And GTA San Andreas managed to blew everyone's minds even further than what GTA Vice City did. It was the peak of GTA. All GTA that followed, despite clearly having gameplay and graphical improvements, in terms of content, they started to fall short a lot on the rest.

Both GT4 and GTA: San Andreas were games that were simply beyond what people expected. They were that good.
And when you add further masterpieces like Metal Gear Solid 3, Half-Life 2, Halo 2 and another game that massively improved on it's previous game of the franchise, like NFS Underground 2... And more others like Spider-Man 2, Driv3r...

I may have not been present from 1997-1998, but I did play a lot of the "top games" of those years, and while I did enjoyed them, they didn't blew my minds like a lot of the early 2000s games. And as I said, 2004 in particular was really great. Just GT4 and GTA: San Andreas and MGS3 on their own carried that year.

And this isn't because I'm getting older. I'm 28, but I still have my hype and enjoyment for games. I may not have the same time I had before with family and job to take care of but when I do have the time, I do want to play games, and no, I don't feel like they are time sinks either.

As with GT7, we are in a time where gaming is blooming all over the world. It's now the biggest media entertainment in the world, far surpassing anything else. With companies growing larger and larger, this era has everything, the potential to be the best, with equally competitive consoles and PC gaming stepping up as well.
And for me, between 2013 and now, there have been amazing games all round, but at the same time, this era has also shown the biggest disappointments.

EA, Ubisoft, Activision in particular releasing games that have been outright insults to us gaming customers. With Rockstar and PD walking now on a similar path...

 

[Kratos_Q8]

I'm in belief that Gran Turismo will eventually become fantastic again, but the condition on how that happens is sadly that Kazunori Yamauchi would have to retire first for that to happen. A new person with a more open mind would have to take his place for GT to evolve the way people want it to. Until then, it's going to be the same case probably with each game.

It's either that or somehow Kaz's worldview changes where he's not having his head in the clouds anymore, but I don't see that happening.

i agree kaz need to go and some one make this GAME a video GAME again

 

[CBH]

Hmm here's a question are there any other notable figures within PD that you think could take over Kaz's position?

I think someone else at PD but I don't know who, has to stand up and say we need to go back to the original roots of the GT series or we are going to lose customers.

To me at the moment PD is heading in the wrong direction with this game, and if PD went in the right direction with GT7 in the first place like the original GT series structure, then it would have a more positive outlook than a negative one.

 

[kilesa4568]

I think someone else at PD but I don't know who, has to stand up and say we need to go back to the original roots of the GT series or we are going to lose customers.

To me at the moment PD is heading in the wrong direction with this game, and if PD went in the right direction with GT7 in the first place like the original GT series structure, then it would have a more positive outlook than a negative one.

Apart from content updates slowing an opinion on a completed game, 7 feels like it's got some good old school vibes going on and to be fair to PD, it's hard to keep reinventing the wheel. I mean, is it fair to compare games from an era where the game shipped as a final fully polished version...and without microtransactions? We were younger and more enthusiastic back then so it'll always be a hard act to follow.

Eventually, 7 will be value for money. You can't argue with that after seeing people's hype for updates in the last few games, keeping them hanging around longer or till the next game's announced.

I'm too old for this live service type game so I won't be there from the start any more but I'll be looking them up after they've matured for a couple of years. Might save myself a few quid in the process.

 

[CBH]

Apart from content updates slowing an opinion on a completed game, 7 feels like it's got some good old school vibes going on and to be fair to PD, it's hard to keep reinventing the wheel. I mean, is it fair to compare games from an era where the game shipped as a final fully polished version...and without microtransactions? We were younger and more enthusiastic back then so it'll always be a hard act to follow.

Eventually, 7 will be value for money. You can't argue with that after seeing people's hype for updates in the last few games, keeping them hanging around longer or till the next game's announced.

I'm too old for this live service type game so I won't be there from the start any more but I'll be looking them up after they've matured for a couple of years. Might save myself a few quid in the process.

GT7 to me it just does not feel like an GT series game, it feels more like a GT Sport 2. If GT7 was structured around a GT4, GT5 and GT6 game, then I have no doubt that GT7 would have been a best game ever. See if it was a real driving simulator, well GT7 would definitely not have Music Rally events and the VGT cars in the game.
I have played all the GT series games over the years from GT1 through to GT6, and they come along and stuffed up GT7.

 

[Imari]

Apart from content updates slowing an opinion on a completed game, 7 feels like it's got some good old school vibes going on and to be fair to PD, it's hard to keep reinventing the wheel. I mean, is it fair to compare games from an era where the game shipped as a final fully polished version...and without microtransactions? We were younger and more enthusiastic back then so it'll always be a hard act to follow...

Yes it's fair to compare. If it could be done in 2004, it can be done in 2022. Games can be shipping well polished and without microtransactions today, just some companies choose not to do that.

I feel like you're getting pretty close to asking "is it really fair to expect each new game to be better than the last?" Yes. That's the point of making a new game. If what you're making isn't going to be better than your previous games, why are you bothering to make it?

As far as reinventing the wheel, that's their job. If you're going to dedicate yourself to making racing games, part of that is finding ways to make racing games more fun and interesting. Making the same game over and over is why we mock Call of Duty and Assassins Creed. Unless you somehow think you've created the perfect racing game and it's literally impossible to improve it, then each new game development should start with "well, what can we improve on what we did last time?"

I'm not sure you mean it that way, but this post comes across as very much excusing Polyphony for how their job is difficult. Everyone's job is difficult, that's how jobs work. If it was easy it'd be done by robots and/or children.

 

[avilab]

I've stayed with GT7 up until now because my OCD kicked in on collecting all the original 424 cars, so Grind City, meaning not a lot of fun. I'm now very close to that car goal, and after that, I really am not sure I will play the game much more. Maybe when online is better supported, AI is improved, more car interaction within the garage (car engine revving and open/close doors etc), then I'll come back and see if I want to spend more time. Hell, even add a custom garage with capacity of maybe 5-10 of our favorite cars so we can geek out on them. PD, for heaven's sake, make this game FUN, make it interactive, make it so that it draws us in with great racing plans!

 

[kilesa4568]

Yes it's fair to compare. If it could be done in 2004, it can be done in 2022. Games can be shipping well polished and without microtransactions today, just some companies choose not to do that.

I feel like you're getting pretty close to asking "is it really fair to expect each new game to be better than the last?" Yes. That's the point of making a new game. If what you're making isn't going to be better than your previous games, why are you bothering to make it?

As far as reinventing the wheel, that's their job. If you're going to dedicate yourself to making racing games, part of that is finding ways to make racing games more fun and interesting. Making the same game over and over is why we mock Call of Duty and Assassins Creed. Unless you somehow think you've created the perfect racing game and it's literally impossible to improve it, then each new game development should start with "well, what can we improve on what we did last time?"

I'm not sure you mean it that way, but this post comes across as very much excusing Polyphony for how their job is difficult. Everyone's job is difficult, that's how jobs work. If it was easy it'd be done by robots and/or children.

I'm just talking about racing game developers. They have a back catalogue of cars and tracks as staples to the series and if they can afford the licensing, possibly new tracks and cars in future games. It doesn't change the fact their customers will just pick a car and drive/race it like they did in all the previous games.

 

[VincentVendetta]

Gaming, like so many other mediums, doesn't go back, it only goes forward

"There is no idea of progress in art." -My old music teacher

I don't remember a single other thing from that course, but I do remember this, and will never forget it.

 

[unfairlane]

This game has CLEARLY never been playtested before release. Anyone who's ever driven a RWD car in real life would've ejected the disk and wrote a stern post-it note to QC after taking a single corner in the game otherwise.

Since launch, every update has broken something. First, the rally tyres. Then the economy. Invitations. You get the point. I am waiting with baited breath to see what else they can break come the 25th. Maybe they'll find some way to make my PS5 break the disc.

This sums it up pretty good. The way too short career & lack of gameplay comes on top..

 

[incredirog]

I disagree that it’s not good, I enjoy it and have sunk well over a hundred hours driving in to it already. I do believe strongly that it could have been so much better though.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

is it fair to compare games from an era where the game shipped as a final fully polished version...and without microtransactions?

With the technology available nowadays, shipping a fully polished game should not be that difficult. Especially with a large team developing the game, and one would assume time given over for testing their product.

To release a game that is:

1. Far from finished
2. Full of bugs
3. Lightweight for the genre (and series)
4. Intentionally hidden options to deceive reviewers and artificially inflate the score
5. Nothing like the “classic GT experience” they promised…

Is genuinely unforgivable. I’ve said since refunding GT7 that I’ll buy it again once they sort the game out, but honestly why should I bother? PD have destroyed my faith in them entirely.

 

[kilesa4568]

With the technology available nowadays, shipping a fully polished game should not be that difficult. Especially with a large team developing the game, and one would assume time given over for testing their product.

To release a game that is:

1. Far from finished
2. Full of bugs
3. Lightweight for the genre (and series)
4. Intentionally hidden options to deceive reviewers and artificially inflate the score
5. Nothing like the “classic GT experience” they promised…

Is genuinely unforgivable. I’ve said since refunding GT7 that I’ll buy it again once they sort the game out, but honestly why should I bother? PD have destroyed my faith in them entirely.

I agree with all your points about 7 apart from the classic GT experience and feel just as disappointed as you. There's really no excuse for the lack of polish but nowadays, it seems like it's par for the course to fix games post launch with updates.

My point wasn't solely related to your topic, though. It was about comparing these live service, polished post launch type games (not a fan) to an era when the AAA games shipped as a final version through quality testing. It's like reviewing two books. One with only the first draft of a chapter and the other a fully edited and published book.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I agree with all your points about 7 apart from the classic GT experience and feel just as disappointed as you. There's really no excuse for the lack of polish but nowadays, it seems like it's par for the course to fix games post launch with updates.

My point wasn't solely related to your topic, though. It was about comparing these live service, polished post launch type games (not a fan) to an era when the AAA games shipped as a final version through quality testing. It's like reviewing two books. One with only the first draft of a chapter and the other a fully edited and published book.

Yeah mate I understand your reasoning, it just bothers me that we - the customers - end up being the (enormous) testing team for companies like PD. If this were a start-up game developer, they'd be absolutely bombed and would probably die off, never to make another game again. But Gran Turismo gets a lot of patience because of a large historic consumer base, a lot of whom play only one genre of game, and probably only continue to play any games at all so long as GT keeps being released (myself included).

It would be so damned easy to create a Gran Turismo full of content just like the classic games, but PD act like we'll all simply lap up whatever nonsense they dish out. We play GT games expecting a certain kind of experience, but they continue to willingly miss that target by some distance. And then they act surprised about our collective reaction.

 

[kilesa4568]

I don't like it but what can you do when the franchise is always the most popular racing game of its type on the playstation? They know we're over a barrel with them drip feeding the game and any who walk away are constantly replaced. Win win.

I bought a digital version of the game and haven't got a decent PC to plug the rig into so I'm resigned to gritting my teeth and baring it, one last time.

 

[avilab]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Kaz needs to be replaced by someone with the energy and determination to offer a "GT" game again, which, interestingly enough, shouldn't be too hard to do. Just look at what made GT3/4 great, apply some modern tech to it, and voila, GT7 is a gem.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Kaz needs to be replaced by someone with the energy and determination to offer a "GT" game again, which, interestingly enough, shouldn't be too hard to do. Just look at what made GT3/4 great, apply some modern tech to it, and voila, GT7 is a gem.

Totally agree. Given the tools I could make GT7 the greatest racing game ever made, by some distance. It's honestly like watching Mario Balotelli or Paul Pogba playing football; the talent is definitely there if they could just be bothered to make the effort.
Makes me so angry.