ORCA - Coming Soon: SILVIA RM SPEC CUP!

[dsgerbc]

In the meantime maybe we should practice clean passing more
So how about something non-competitive on weekday nights?
There was a format that didn't pick up as much as I was hoping it would, but maybe it was due to it being an enduro. It was a race with boost on weak (maybe even strong, don't remember), same make and damage on heavy. So people wouldn't be too spread out and even if they get damage - have chance to catch-up. And lots of passing.

 

[Torzilla]

In the meantime maybe we should practice clean passing more
So how about something non-competitive on weekday nights?
There was a format that didn't pick up as much as I was hoping it would, but maybe it was due to it being an enduro. It was a race with boost on weak (maybe even strong, don't remember), same make and damage on heavy. So people wouldn't be too spread out and even if they get damage - have chance to catch-up. And lots of passing.

Id be down with this idea, racing in gt5 is so much better when its with a group who race clean as opposed to the normal online racing. Maybe we should run karts untill everyone learns to behave themselves, then we can upgrade to adult cars.

 

[LancerEvo7]

We might all be busting out our Cappy pretty soon.

 

[BrandonW77]

When you say "anymore racing" Brandon, are you saying you are done with ORCA indefinitely, or just done with this particular format and something new is still in the works for the near future?

Done with this format and taking a break while the Academy kicks off. I'm going to re-think things, start from scratch and create a new points racing format or formats. To be clear, I didn't shut things down due to one night of bad racing. Attendance/interest has been really low in this format and I had already decided I was going to do this at the end of the month. The rough racing just expedited it. We can use this thread to organize random racing and testing.

DSG, that type of format has been floating in my head for a while. Focusing more on creating really close/fun racing than trying to be realistic. Low boost is a good way to do that, I've never been big on heavy damage but combined with boost they could balance each other nicely. Needs testing.

 

[Torzilla]

Just my couple of cents but full damage on a track with a small chance of running into walls is a good idea. It keeps people from divebombing or just trying to sqeeze into a slot but also doesnt ruin your race if u mess up a little and go off track. I can only speak for myself, and I am the first to admit that I often end up at the end of the pack at the finish, and a major factor in that is because I would rather finish last than take someone out (even if they "hit me first"). The bottom line is that the drivers that run in this series are usually respectful and race clean.The people running things are also super nice, put a good amount of planning into the races ( we should respect that) and accomidating to anyone who wants to race with us. without that we would all be running random online races or in a differnt series, . I dont want that to be ruined by a few bad apples. Its nice to know that your not getting slammed in the rear on a tight corner and lets keep it that way, drive it like you own it.

 

[OwensRacing]

When you do start a new series. Consider a drivers quality points. All drivers start at 3 stars. For each incident they get reported and deemed illegal they lose a star. For every two races with out incident you regain a star. lose all three stars and you get a week suspension and a chance to start earning your stars back. However maybe lose all three stars and you get removed. Cause if someone wrecks someone three of five races. Well truly they need to practice but not during our series races. LoL

Basically a system that removes bad driving on its own if you will. As well incorporated is a reward system for those that get caught up in a mistake.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Done with this format and taking a break while the Academy kicks off.

Thanks for clearing that up. You do realize that Canadians get shafted out of the GT Academy, or at least we did last time, I assume it'll be the same this time. Booooo PD:tdown:👎 Obviously Kaz is living in fear that Canucks will dominate the leaderboard

Just my couple of cents but full damage on a track with a small chance of running into walls is a good idea. It keeps people from divebombing or just trying to sqeeze into a slot but also doesnt ruin your race if u mess up a little and go off track.

It wouldn't stop me from racing, but I'm not a big fan of heavy damage. In theory it's great, my problem with it is, you can get significant damage to your car through no fault of your own. Someone runs into the back of you because they missed their braking point, or misses the braking point and instead of going off the track they dive inside and you turn into them. I don't mind getting damage if I make a dumb mistake, I just dislike the idea that I can run my usual, absolutely, perfectly, squeaky clean race, and still get damaged through someone else's mistake. It might be realistic, but it's not fun when that happens

When you do start a new series. Consider a drivers quality points. All drivers start at 3 stars. For each incident they get reported and deemed illegal they lose a star. For every two races with out incident you regain a star. lose all three stars and you get a week suspension and a chance to start earning your stars back. However maybe lose all three stars and you get removed. Cause if someone wrecks someone three of five races. Well truly they need to practice but not during our series races. LoL

Basically a system that removes bad driving on its own if you will. As well incorporated is a reward system for those that get caught up in a mistake.

Sort of like a 3 strikes and you're out. A good idea in theory but in a short series of 6 races, three strikes is quite a lot of strikes. Half your races. But it sort of goes with another idea I'd like to throw out there which could help with this.

I'd like to propose that we go with rolling starts. Ok, I'll pause and let the screaming die down..........

We did it in Sag's Tri-Auto Cup last week, combined with 3 different PP levels requiring 3 resets and it went off without a hitch and fairly quick too, less than 5 minutes I think. We all gathered on the back straight of TM Reverse, rolled out at less than 100 km/h, put the foot down in the left hander before the tunnel, and no passing until the S/F line. It spread the field out a bit, warmed up the tires a bit, and everyone was in "single file mode" already when the race officially started at the S/F line. No huge pile up in the first corner. It would make a track like Monaco (where we did a single file rolling start in the VCRC in the Spec Jag) and Madrid where first lap incidents are common, much more friendly in terms of first lap contact and more raceable.

So in keeping with that, one of the way you can penalize someone who has broken the rules in some particular way, is to start them at the back of the grid, or drop them a few spots or something to that effect. We have to make some allowances of course for those that make contact concessions, as opposed to those that don't, but making someone start at the back at some point would be quite the punishement for a repeat offender, as opposed to a slap on the wrist or a written warning.

 

[OwensRacing]

I love Rolling Starts!!!!!





The Star penalty system could carry over. Everyone get 3. Go entire series with no incidents you get a 4 star rating. Unlimited Star Rating.

Hard to earn and easy to lose. If a person loses all their Stars they are removed from the Series and possibly a post in the op of removed dirty drivers. Wall of shame so to speak.

Make these racers actions known.









Edwin, if you following here. This part is for you. Firstly let me apologize for not controlling my temper and maliciously running into you. So wrong on my part. If I could rewind that would never taken place. Very embarrassing to let myself get that upset.


Now let's touch on why I got upset. I've watched the racing you have been doing. Your a quick driver. However you race people for position on every straight you et a draft run. Slowing you and them down. Causing leaders to pull away.

You came up into chicane and using draft drove way deep and basically if I wasn't watching you would of plows my door. Being I seem it coming I stayed wide and let you by to avoid being hit. Well I suspected you. Knew this was what I did and knew your pass wasn't really clean and would let me back by. Besides the act you and I needed to draft and push. Anyway that's the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.


Basically I ask that you learn to work with other racers to catch leader(s). Be respectful and don't force a pass. Don't be a draft hero.

I think you got a lot of potential. Hope you see my post as respectful. I truly mean it that way.

 

[Torzilla]

The thing I like about heavy damage is the realistic factor, like say I mess up and drive into someone, the reaction is that I messed up and messed up their race, then I can be held responsible. My point is it can promote less aggressive racing. Im thinking we do the normal capp/ alfa format for a points series, but if we are doing a weekly, non points thing then we can bring in heavy damage and it will hopfully keep things legal and fun. Id also like say that brandon and the stewards have been doing a great job of organizing the races and points, and I really dont want to see that wasted because of disrespectful bs racing.

I also relize I make mistakes and Im not trying to preach, the fact is I usually have a few drinks and end up smoking a little most times we race and I can usually finish with very few incidents. If I can do it so can you, race clean and go get'em little tiger.

 

[OwensRacing]

The thing I like about heavy damage is the realistic factor, like say I mess up and drive into someone, the reaction is that I messed up and messed up their race, then I can be held responsible. My point is it can promote less aggressive racing. Im thinking we do the normal capp/ alfa format for a points series, but if we are doing a weekly, non points thing then we can bring in heavy damage and it will hopfully keep things legal and fun. Id also like say that brandon and the stewards have been doing a great job of organizing the races and points, and I really dont want to see that wasted because of disrespectful bs racing.

I'd be ok with heavy damage at all times. You have stated most the reasons.


I do not like the boost idea though. The draft is strong enough now. LoL

 

[TrackBound7]

With the right group, I would be up for some heavy damage racing. I like many of the ideas that I have been hearing here and in the PMs. Some have dealt with a parity system, maybe fields of different cars with winning car being retired, or the opposite, or the field being all the same, but each scheduled racing night would have it own points system, with perhaps its own car. Great to see so much action in this thread right now and shows how committed the core of this group is.

 

[Cote Dazur]

One question any member of this group as to ask himself is:
1. Am I racing to win?
2. Am I racing for a clean competition and possibly winning if I can do it in a way I can be proud of? ie clean.

I am staying away from the members who answer yes to question 1.

I am very surprised from the proposition of more policing and rules, not my cup of tea, if I am to race with that type of people wishing for/needing more police, no interest, thank you very much.

a few set of formula might lead to cleaner racing.

1. longer race, at least 8 laps, will let everyone time to get in the groove and avoid having to rush into passing because the race is too short

2. One car one track for the same evening, leave you time to learn to go around the track with a clean pace. leads to better racing.

3. Since it does not seem easy to gather a group of equally talented people at the same time, in the same lounge with a clear goal of clean friendly competition, why not introduce a parity formula to equalize the talent and create an interest for wider group of clean and friendly racer. That way, with a larger pool of talent, it might also be easier to tell the recklees drivers to go in an other sandbox.

 

[BrandonW77]

One question any member of this group as to ask himself is:
1. Am I racing to win?
2. Am I racing for a clean competition and possibly winning if I can do it in a way I can be proud of? ie clean.

I am staying away from the members who answer yes to question 1.

I am very surprised from the proposition of more policing and rules, not my cup of tea, if I am to race with that type of people wishing for/needing more police, no interest, thank you very much.

a few set of formula might lead to cleaner racing.

1. longer race, at least 8 laps, will let everyone time to get in the groove and avoid having to rush into passing because the race is too short

2. One car one track for the same evening, leave you time to learn to go around the track with a clean pace. leads to better racing.

3. Since it does not seem easy to gather a group of equally talented people at the same time, in the same lounge with a clear goal of clean friendly competition, why not introduce a parity formula to equalize the talent and create an interest for wider group of clean and friendly racer. That way, with a larger pool of talent, it might also be easier to tell the recklees drivers to go in an other sandbox.

This. All of this. 👍

 

[TrackBound7]

I am usually racing for a position in the bottom third of the field. Which statement fits that?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Unfortunately Cote, you do need some rules, partly as a deterrent and partly so there are some consequences should something happen. Rules also give everyone a clear vision of what is expected. What "clean racing" is to one person, is not the same to someone else so some things need to be clearly defined. And it's just human nature that there's likely to be someone who doesn't quite play by the same rules in which case you need some way to deal with that person. ORCA has always been pretty slim on rules outside of GTPlanet Rules and I don't expect that is going to change.

When it comes to answering your 2 questions, I won't answer yes or no to either. For me, clean racing is a prerequisite, a given, there is no other way to race and there is no option. Even with all the pinballing and divebombing and wrecking at last Tuesday's event, I pride myself that I had nothing but incidental contact with anyone and then just a slight tap that didn't unsettle anyone or cost anyone any time on the track. And still managed to take 2-2nds and a 3rd place finish, while racing clean. I didn't divebomb anyone although it was done to me a couple of times at least. That's the only way to go for me, because a victory achieved outside of the GTPlanet Rules is a hollow one and provides no satisfaction to me.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Johnny, I agree, we need rules, we have the OLR, it seems enough to me.
I was referring to adding more rules instead of acting with honor and starting by following the existing rules instead of being treated like childs.
I believe that beeing ask to take responsability for his action is more efficient than beeing threatened into do something.
I believe you do to, and yes it does not work with everyone, but contrary to real life where I cannot choose who I live in society with, online I have full control on whom I accept to play with.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Good point Cote.👍

Brandon, are you looking for input, spitballing, ideas etc? Or do you already have a pretty good idea of where you want to go?

 

[BrandonW77]

I don't have anything firm, just lots of general ideas and outlines. Feel free to toss any thoughts out there, knowing what the majority wants will help me come up with something solid.

 

[TomBrady]

Just my couple of cents but full damage on a track with a small chance of running into walls is a good idea. It keeps people from divebombing or just trying to sqeeze into a slot but also doesnt ruin your race if u mess up a little and go off track. I can only speak for myself, and I am the first to admit that I often end up at the end of the pack at the finish, and a major factor in that is because I would rather finish last than take someone out (even if they "hit me first"). The bottom line is that the drivers that run in this series are usually respectful and race clean.The people running things are also super nice, put a good amount of planning into the races ( we should respect that) and accomidating to anyone who wants to race with us. without that we would all be running random online races or in a differnt series, . I dont want that to be ruined by a few bad apples. Its nice to know that your not getting slammed in the rear on a tight corner and lets keep it that way, drive it like you own it.

I agree. Even when people have no intention of racing dirty, when there are consequences other than just having to give a contact concession, people are almost always less inclined to go for that daring pass, that they know they probably shouldn't try. The idea of having to stop at the pits and end up in last place usually keeps everyone in check. I've learned this from playing iracing, which has some of the most unforgiving damage you'll ever find.

I'm not saying the racers here are dirty, we all make mistakes, push a little too hard, etc. I'm just saying it's human nature to be more careful when there are tougher consequences. In public lobbies, heavy damage sucks just because any random person who doesn't know or doesn't care can ruin the race for someone but I figure since we all want the same thing (clean, fair, and fun racing), why not take advantage? I don't think heavy damage would be out of the question.

Like you said, drive it like you own it. I don't think it's a matter of anyone doing things on purpose or not, I just think people need to be as cautious as they would in real life. Some people (myself included) have trouble doing that without real consequences, and I think heavy damage would be a start but it's just a suggestion. Whatever is decided, I'll be in for some racing when the series returns

 

[BrandonW77]

I'm not big on heavy damage. Like JP said, the unfortunate result is that when you get hit by somebody else it's almost guaranteed to ruin your race instead of just cost you a position or two. I do everything I can to try to keep the pack close together, having heavy damage means people will be going to the pits which will spread the field out and lead to a bunch of glorified hot lapping.

I like the idea of a rating or "star" system too, but again as JP said it isn't very effective in a short season. If for no other reason, if somebody ruins one of your races it doesn't matter what kind of penalty they receive because the season is too short for you to make up the lost ground. I am likely going to look into having PURE handle any incident reviews and penalties, they offer this service to anybody and it's probably the best way to do it since they will be totally impartial (and I won't have to deal with the ugliness of it).

I generally feel like more rules and procedures just muck things up, lead to confusion and add time to the events. Simplicity is the key to success and I'm not going to have some big, convoluted system like a lot of other series have. Show up, practice, race, have fun, that's it. No jumping through hoops or having to follow complicated instructions, no procedures that can get screwed up if one person does something wrong. I always try to let the game handle as much of the responsibility as possible and don't try to force it to do things it doesn't do.

Some good input here, keep the ideas and opinions coming. I'm taking note of things I think will be of value. 👍

 

[Cote Dazur]

bunch of glorified hot lapping.

It made me laugh, but it also more or less describe the most part of my online racing experience, so maybe not so funny.
I am actively working on a remedy and have no doubt that parity is the right solution

 

[BrandonW77]

It made me laugh, but it also more or less describe the most part of my online racing experience, so maybe not so funny.
I am actively working on a remedy and have no doubt that parity is the right solution

This is something I've thought about, having a series featuring 2 different cars where one is slightly slower than the other. Drivers that finish on the podium consistently could be demoted to the (slightly) slower car to even things up. But I think that would be too complicated, especially in a short season. The best thing is probably some sort of success ballast, but if we run tuning-prohibited we can't add ballast so we'd have to use the power limiter. But again, this adds procedures and rules as well as adding more for me to keep track of and it would add time to the events because we'd have to let some people in the track and then change the regulations to let everyone else in. If I can figure out a way to do it easily and efficiently I'd be all for something along these lines to help even up the field.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Get outta town!!! I had two good ideas in the same week?!💡 Have to write this on the calender.

Don't know about this PURE stewarding system but it sounds like it could provide some impartial feedback. Not sure how it works but off the top of my head what comes to mind is that I'd like to keep it mandatory that we still have to contact each other via PM first and only when that avenue is exhausted do we send an incident for review, as we have done in the past. This system has worked well for me and others and often results in calling penalties on ourselves or agreeing to a certain version of events and handing it off to stewards or the RD for a decision on consequences.

And I'd really like to make a case for rolling starts. Only done it three times now but it's been a lot of fun and made for cleaner starts and better racing. PD has screwed up the grid positioning now so even if anyone leaves to go and check the grid order to record things to ensure the grid is right, they lose their time and end up at the back. Alternately, you have a situation where you do the countdown and if things aren't right, you have to abort the race and start over, in which case you need recorded times anyway to line up the grid properly and still end up with a manual grid but with a lot of added chaos.

In an ongoing series like ours it just makes a lot of sense from a number of perspectives and solves a lot of issues, and the investment is just a few minutes of time. It also makes a few tracks like Monza with chicanes, Monaco, Madrid, London etc. with really tight, sharp, first corners, more raceable. I think it's also a more "professional" way to go and adds something distinct and not so common to our series. What's worked well in so far is going to a section of track to line up, rolling for a few corners, then getting up to racing speed a few corners before the S/F line and no passing until the S/F line. Went off without a hitch twice so far in the Tri-Auto Cup.

I have a couple of ideas about cars and tracks but I want to confirm first that we're going with a Spec racing series, no tuning.

EDIT: Just noticed your post above Brandon, Sag does the PP change to allow three different cars into the race and it's literally seconds worth of work and incredibly simple. Have to remember we're all here to race, everyone will be familiar with the procedures and ready to go and I don't expect it'll present any problems at all.

 

[Blind829]

...I am likely going to look into having PURE handle any incident reviews and penalties, they offer this service to anybody and it's probably the best way to do it since they will be totally impartial (and I won't have to deal with the ugliness of it).

That's a good idea, less work for you and less of those silly angry PM's to deal with.

I generally feel like more rules and procedures just muck things up, lead to confusion and add time to the events. Simplicity is the key to success and I'm not going to have some big, convoluted system like a lot of other series have. Show up, practice, race, have fun, that's it. No jumping through hoops or having to follow complicated instructions, no procedures that can get screwed up if one person does something wrong. I always try to let the game handle as much of the responsibility as possible and don't try to force it to do things it doesn't do.

Preach it B, the complication is what takes the fun out of it for me, and I imagine it's what drains you down to where it's too much of a job for you. We're all adults here and most of us just want good clean exciting racing.

I'm looking forward to jumping back on board when some home remodeling is done, I'm missing it.

 

[BrandonW77]

EDIT: Just noticed your post above Brandon, Sag does the PP change to allow three different cars into the race and it's literally seconds worth of work and incredibly simple. Have to remember we're all here to race, everyone will be familiar with the procedures and ready to go and I don't expect it'll present any problems at all.

Sure, on the tail end of it. But think about the "paperwork" I'd have to do on my end to figure out who's supposed to be at what PP, then make the adjustments after each race and have a new list ready for next week. My whole goal is to lessen the amount of "behind the scenes" work for me and anybody who helps me. I just want to show up and race like the rest of you, I don't want to keep notebooks at my side to determine who goes where. To reduce the likelihood of "burnout" I need to keep administrative work to a minimum. If I can figure out a way to streamline this process, I'd be all for it, but it's a complicated issue.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Sure, on the tail end of it. But think about the "paperwork" I'd have to do on my end to figure out who's supposed to be at what PP, then make the adjustments after each race and have a new list ready for next week. My whole goal is to lessen the amount of "behind the scenes" work for me and anybody who helps me. I just want to show up and race like the rest of you, I don't want to keep notebooks at my side to determine who goes where. To reduce the likelihood of "burnout" I need to keep administrative work to a minimum. If I can figure out a way to streamline this process, I'd be all for it, but it's a complicated issue.

If you only have one tier of restriction, let's say 15pp for the sake of argument, then there are two track pp resets, which is about 15 seconds so that part is relatively easy. Keeping track of who carries the PP penalty is the complicated part but how complicated that is depends on how deep into the grid the penalties go. If we only penalize the previous week's winner for example then you only have to keep track of one or a couple of people, depending on how many races are won. If the previous weeks' winner doesn't show for a race, no adjustments are needed and everyone is at the same PP.

How complicated it is depends on how deep into the results you want to go, and how determined you are to equalize the grid. If you keep it to winners only, then it's pretty easy to keep track of.

 

[BrandonW77]

^ I understand, but it still adds extra steps on my end. I know from the previous year of organizing racing that if I want to continue doing this I have to keep the burden to a minimum. I want the grid to be equalized but not at the expense of adding extra work and risking getting burnt out again. It may seem like just a simple step, but it quickly piles up on my end.

While it may not seem fair, the simplest thing to do would just be to add the "success penalty" at the beginning of the season to those drivers I/we know are the fastest. If other "faster than average" drivers emerge during the season they can have the success penalty added. I've raced with enough of you guys for long enough that I know how is likely to be miles ahead of the pack and I think you guys know me well enough by now to know I wouldn't unfairly assign a penalty. I still consider this a bit of a last resort though, I'm going to focus my energy on finding better parity without having to add these steps and I really don't like penalizing somebody for doing well.

 

[Johnnypenso]

^ I understand, but it still adds extra steps on my end. I know from the previous year of organizing racing that if I want to continue doing this I have to keep the burden to a minimum. I want the grid to be equalized but not at the expense of adding extra work and risking getting burnt out again. It may seem like just a simple step, but it quickly piles up on my end.

While it may not seem fair, the simplest thing to do would just be to add the "success penalty" at the beginning of the season to those drivers I/we know are the fastest. If other "faster than average" drivers emerge during the season they can have the success penalty added. I've raced with enough of you guys for long enough that I know how is likely to be miles ahead of the pack and I think you guys know me well enough by now to know I wouldn't unfairly assign a penalty. I still consider this a bit of a last resort though, I'm going to focus my energy on finding better parity without having to add these steps and I really don't like penalizing somebody for doing well.

Never thought of that, doing it from the beginning with drivers we know are fast...sounds like a reasonable alternative but I'm not sure it's going to save a whole lot of time or trouble. You still have to keep track of who the drivers are, it can change from week to week depending on who is successful, and you still have to go through a room reset. Sounds like pretty much the same amount of work, only difference is you do it from the beginning, which isn't a bad idea.

If parity is the goal then there are other ways of going about it without the complications of keeping track of PP levels etc. It would take some work but we could come up with a two car series where one car is slightly faster than the other but at the same PP and the faster drivers could be in the slower car. It would limit the options as far as car selection goes but it can be done. It might be tough to match the Alfa Zagato for example, but matching an Impreza model with an Evo is quite possible. Or different versions of RX-7's, RX-8's, GT-R's, Skylines, BMW's, etc. etc. There are many cars that have multiple models that are close but not quite the same in performance at identical PP levels. And finding cars that are +/- a second apart is much easier than finding cars that are identical.

I did some testing for this when we launched the latest incarnation of ORCA and found three cars you could throw a blanket over, all around 450pp, and in the process discarded several others that were close. Keep in mind, I wouldn't throw this type of idea out if I wasn't willing to do the legwork, drive and test the cars, and hand off all my findings to others to confirm my results.

With that type of system, there is no track resetting, everyone is at the same PP level, and the only thing you have to keep track of is who is in which car, but I highly doubt someone is going to show up in the wrong car to gain some advantage hoping no one will notice. I'm sure they'd be set straight by someone before qualifying began and the stewards would be watching out for that anyway. No matter what system you choose there has to be something to be kept track of, that's unavoidable.

Another way to do it is with tire compounds but we'd have to do some testing to find the gap between one compound and the other, and it will also require a track reset and keeping track of who is to be on what tire.

 

[BrandonW77]

I like the Impreza/Evo idea, there are several combinations of those cars and in almost every one the Evo is slightly slower at the same PP level so that would be a natural way to create parity and also a natural theme for a series (something I was already thinking about). We'd have to be sure the Evo isn't at a big enough disadvantage to hamper even the fast drivers though.

Another option that would be the easiest is to modify the double-header format. The first race would be a short sprint race, ~5 laps, and the feature race would be a 30-40 minute race with the reverse grid so the fast guys at the back have plenty of time to patiently work their way toward the front. This goes a little way towards reducing glorified hot-lapping too, requires no track reset or list keeping.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Here's something exciting.💡💡 Just for the sake of argument, if we go with the Impreza/Evo battle there's also an Imprezza and Evo TC car. I believe they have different levels of downforce but if there was by some chance similar levels of difference in performance in the TC version of the cars you could have a 4 car series, with half the races on say "street" tracks or shorter tracks for the street cars and the other half on true race tracks with the race cars.

I did drive both TC cars when they first came out, and the Impreza was better but I didn't measure lap times when equalized by pp.