Original Track Redesigns - Good or Bad? [READ OP]

[ShiftingGears]

(I know this post is old, but it was linked by GTPlanets Twitter)

I'm happy with what they did to Trial Mountain visually, it looks great now... but taking the classic chicane out is too far imo. Seems like the side effect of having Sport mode is that the franchise is heading down this path of taking itself too seriously, to a point where it's obnoxious. It's one of the main reasons why extremely fun features like "shuffle mode" is more than likely never going to see a return in any GT game ever again. If fictional tracks aren't allowed to be fun or have character anymore because of a silly esports mode we are all burdened by, then don't even bother. Just stick to the real tracks.

I think PD just make stupid irrational decisions. Its not about taking themselves too seriously - after all, they've added police cars for kids to play cops and robbers in lobbies with.

Massive camber/banked corners seems to be their current obsession. Most of the new tracks seem to have one, for me the Maggiore one really ruins what is otherwise a realistic track.

Yeah there always has to be a gimmick. They cant help themselves. Same with Alsace, its ridiculous. I could design a lot better.

There's literally hundreds of racetracks throughout history to draw inspiration from, and the only thing they can think of is cranking up the camber. No understanding of subtlety at all.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Delete

 

[05XR8]

The SSR highway/freeway tracks definitely need redesigning. To me, PD hit and missed in some of the Tokyo layouts, but they're pretty good compared to the classic SSR layouts.

It's almost like Kei car design regulations. When PD have to work within those rules(real track locations like NYC, Seoul, Madrid), they can design some really nice tracks. Give them carte blanche and they go off the rails.

Anyway, please PD, don't mess too much with Mid-field and Apricot Hill.

 

[Samus]

If PD are gonna fiddle with more old tracks I'd much rather they did it with new alternative layouts and keep the old one intact. Plenty of places a new loop can be added. Mid-Field for example you could extend the main straight and create a new section beyond the current T1, or extend out from the large radius corner after the first tunnel.

A very rough example, obviously more thought would have to go into what is actually on the extension.

Call the new one Midfield GP, keep the old one as Midfield Short, or whatever. Nobody is gonna be unhappy then.

You can of course also add modifications to the original part of the track on the new version, again, so long as the old original loop is still available.

 

[TonyJZX]

Going back to their recent history I have faith that their recreations will be faithful to the original.

Arent we all ok with the way Midfield and all the other tracks came out in GT6?

I can point out where things did not "go ok". THe Turn10 Maple Valley reimaging wasnt good at all.

 

[JTB10000]

Massive camber/banked corners seems to be their current obsession. Most of the new tracks seem to have one, for me the Maggiore one really ruins what is otherwise a realistic track.

Some things. "Ruins". It's a fun, inoffensive, grippy corner great for overtaking (which many complain about a track not having) that many people like. And I also don't see why it can't exist. If a track like Cadwell Park with that super steep hill can exist and be used in racing, Maggiore is about on that level.

 

[MadMax97]

I would like the bridge on High speed ring and the ramp on Test course which was cut before gt2 release

 

[LeGeNd-1]

BEHOLD MY EPIC MS PAINT SKILLZ !!!11one!1!1

Just transplant the old chicane to the unused grassy field on the inside of the new chicane, it fits perfectly

 

[ShiftingGears]

The good thing about Trial Mountain was that there was lots of corners, you weren't left bored by the long times between corners when driving slow cars.

 

[ScottPuss20]

The good thing about Trial Mountain was that there was lots of corners, you weren't left bored by the long times between corners when driving slow cars.

Yeah the old layout worked great with slower cars but I don't think it's suitable for all race cars. Group 4 machinery would be able to handle the layout better because they're just modified road cars, but full-blown race cars may not. Group 3, Group 2 and Group 1 cars would overpower the shortened layout and won't really have a chance to overtake as easily. The first sector in particular would be awful. You wouldn't be able to get close enough to car in front to make an overtake at the end of the back straight.

 

[ShiftingGears]

This is what irks me.

This is the quality of track that PD should implement when they attempt something 'classic'. There's no gimmick, no suspension bridge or long tunnel, no 30 degree inclines or 40 degree banking, just corners that naturally flow into each other. All PD has to do is actually watch onboards of old grand prix circuits like the modder who replicated the Deutschlandring here did.



Instead for new tracks or even new versions of old tracks like Trial Mountain, they look even less realistic than they did in 1998.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

This is what irks me.

This is the quality of track that PD should implement when they attempt something 'classic'. There's no gimmick, no suspension bridge or long tunnel, no 30 degree inclines or 40 degree banking, just corners that naturally flow into each other. All PD has to do is actually watch onboards of old grand prix circuits like the modder who replicated the Deutschlandring here did.



Instead for new tracks or even new versions of old tracks like Trial Mountain, they look even less realistic than they did in 1998.

I don't mind tunnels and bridges. It's a fictional circuit so there's scope for fantastic locations and architectures that would otherwise be too costly/impractical/dangerous in real life. If you just want to drive tracks with basic backgrounds, the real world circuits fit that bill. And PD have been moving away from silly backgrounds as well - Maggiore for example is as bland as can be - so I think the balance is right. Obviously, I don't want them to go full OTT like going through underwater aquarium, or going through a fairy castle. This is GT after all, not Mario Kart.

That mod for Assetto Corsa is semi fictional btw. The roads were planned out but the racing didn't go on at all. You can read more of the author's notes here:
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/deutschlandring.25977/

 

[ShiftingGears]

I don't mind tunnels and bridges. It's a fictional circuit so there's scope for fantastic locations and architectures that would otherwise be too costly/impractical/dangerous in real life. If you just want to drive tracks with basic backgrounds, the real world circuits fit that bill. And PD have been moving away from silly backgrounds as well - Maggiore for example is as bland as can be - so I think the balance is right. Obviously, I don't want them to go full OTT like going through underwater aquarium, or going through a fairy castle. This is GT after all, not Mario Kart.

Yeah, the issue I have is when it just looks too jarring, or when they rely on a gimmick to make the track stand out, because they can't make a decent track layout. You can have a good looking track that still resembles something that cars would've raced on in motorsport history without going full Cape Ring.

That mod for Assetto Corsa is semi fictional btw. The roads were planned out but the racing didn't go on at all. You can read more of the author's notes here:
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/deutschlandring.25977/

Yes I'm aware. It demonstrates the point though, you can have something that could've conceivably existed in real life look spectacular in a game without a loop the loop or suspension bridge. And to me also demonstrates that PD are underachieving when it comes to their track output.

 

[MIE1992]

IMO the only course that would require very minimal changes, if any, is Apricot Hill. I think you could leave that course largely intact and it'd still be good for online racing.

And besides, many real-world courses undergo changes all the time, such as Monza, Le Mans, Spa-Francorchamps, Interlagos, and Fuji. Why should GT's fictional courses be any different? If anything, I think it adds a lot to the verisimilitude of these courses.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

IMO the only course that would require very minimal changes, if any, is Apricot Hill. I think you could leave that course largely intact and it'd still be good for online racing.

And besides, many real-world courses undergo changes all the time, such as Monza, Le Mans, Spa-Francorchamps, Interlagos, and Fuji. Why should GT's fictional courses be any different? If anything, I think it adds a lot to the verisimilitude of these courses.

Sigh, you didn't read the OP. I have provided the counter argument to this so many times throughout the thread as well.

Real world tracks change because of evolving safety rules, economics, or political reasons. None of these reasons hold water in the game, except for "we change it because we could". And in this case, the change isn't for the better. I have provided solutions of providing alternate layouts, or combining the two (just 6 posts above yours), which satisfies both parties. It doesn't take too much work from PD's part because all the old track geometry is already there. They just need to add the new textures and trackside objects.

Fictional tracks should provide something different than real world tracks. If fictional tracks all ape real world tracks, then what's the point?

 

[Samus]

Also again, that real world comparison doesn't work when the changes PD have made to this track would be physically impossible in the real world. They haven't approached the changes from a realism POV at all, they've moved the earth along and stuck an extension in the middle.

 

[JTB10000]

OP is well said (only just now read it I'll be honest) but I doubt anyone from the team is going to come across this and the replies, let alone actually make changes based on them. The returning track designs are most likely set in stone by now and talk about changes to them will remain as just talk. Would be cool if PD were more receptive to feedback though.

 

[Grayfox]

- Track has been widened in a lot of places.

Widening a track a little is OK IMO, going too wide just makes the track less fun.
High speed ring is a good example, over widened

2. Sometimes change is necessary.
- The SS Routes have been replaced with Tokyo Expressway in GT Sport, which are completely different and (correctly) called a different name, so I'm okay with that.

SSR11 redesign in GT3 was not needed, the thing that made SSR11 so iconic was the chicane.

3. Old Trial Mountain doesn't meet FIA safety standards or realistic physics.
- Dragon Trail's death chicane would never be approved in real life either. Same with all Tokyo Expressway tracks due to lack of runoff.

Azerbaijan has its own death chicane and it is approved by the FIA

Heck Monaco is similar to Trial Mountain, tight twisty track with little to no escape roads, and hard to really recover vehicles.
The only reason it is kept is Historic reasons.

If Monaco was never on the calander and wanted to become an F1 track the FIA would say NO!.

 

[05XR8]

Mid-field can stay as is. There's a track in Japan, that Mid-field looks to be based on. I've posted it before.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

OP is well said (only just now read it I'll be honest) but I doubt anyone from the team is going to come across this and the replies, let alone actually make changes based on them. The returning track designs are most likely set in stone by now and talk about changes to them will remain as just talk. Would be cool if PD were more receptive to feedback though.

Thanks for reading the whole thing 👍 I know it's a long shot to get PD to change things, but at least we can try and we have nothing to lose.

Back in GT5, I also made a thread about the issue of DLC cars only being purchasable once, and they fixed it shortly afterwards. Difficult to know whether it's due to my post, or whether it's just the deluge of complaints all over the internet, but I'd like to think it's a bit of both

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/solving-the-dlc-problem.227506/

Mid-field can stay as is. There's a track in Japan, that Mid-field looks to be based on. I've posted it before.

Interesting, I know HSR is based on Fuji's old layout, and Apricot Hill is inspired by Suzuka with its essess, hairpin halfway along the track and chicane near the end. But I can't think of anything else that has a figure 8 layout let alone resembling Midfield.

 

[05XR8]

Thanks for reading the whole thing 👍 I know it's a long shot to get PD to change things, but at least we can try and we have nothing to lose.

Back in GT5, I also made a thread about the issue of DLC cars only being purchasable once, and they fixed it shortly afterwards. Difficult to know whether it's due to my post, or whether it's just the deluge of complaints all over the internet, but I'd like to think it's a bit of both

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/solving-the-dlc-problem.227506/



Interesting, I know HSR is based on Fuji's old layout, and Apricot Hill is inspired by Suzuka with its essess, hairpin halfway along the track and chicane near the end. But I can't think of anything else that has a figure 8 layout let alone resembling Midfield.

Found it.

This just popped up in my notifications. Looks like Mid-Field raceway.

 

[Samus]

Not really seeing much similarity personally.

 

[05XR8]

Not really seeing much similarity personally.

Doesn't have to be exact as it's a fictional circuit. It has some cues from the real track. The T1, the left right ess after T1, the left hand run into the tunnel and crest out of the tunnel and down the front straight. The tightness of Mid-Field and the way the surroundings are modelled in game.

 

[Grayfox]

Not really seeing much similarity personally.

Dont know why but I am getting Red Rock Valley vibes from that track

 

[MIE1992]

Anyway, please PD, don't mess too much with Mid-field and Apricot Hill.

I could see Mid-Field getting some changes - perhaps more run-off area for example - but I agree that Apricot Hill is perfect as it is. And I say this as someone who welcomes the changes made to Trial Mountain.

 

[wagnerFAM98]

I'm starting to think PD chose Trial Mountain as the first classic original track to showcase because they felt it would be one of the most affected OG track in terms of changes, so it would come as an even more shocking reveal, positively or negatively. I also put down a little theory trying to guess how much the other popular classic tracks will change based on their layouts and general scenery, using a scale from 0 (less likely to change) to 10 (more likely to change):

Apricot Hill Raceway - 0: The layout of this track is perfect and fits a real life circuit very well.
High Speed Ring - 1: A good example of an old-styled high speed circuit. It definitely won't need a drastic change.
Mid-Field Raceway - 2: Despite being an 8-figure track with 2 tunnels, it still has a pretty realistic shape. Some additional run-off areas should be enough.
Grand Valley Speedway - 4: Here I could feel some little issues with the slow section of the track, especially with those few turns before and after the first tunnel. Maybe that would force PD to stretch the track a little bit, not like the twice-as-large Trial Mountain stretching.
Deep Forest Raceway - 4: A very similar issue to Grand Valley could be the case here. I can see PD removing a corner on that quick right-left-right-left part after the second tunnel in favor of a wider run-off area.
Trial Mountain Circuit - 7: I listed a track we have already seen here just so you can see how I would rank this track among the others.
Autumn Ring - 9: In my humble opinion, if Autumn Ring is really coming back, get ready to see even more radical changes than those in Trial Mountain. No, it is not because of the spiral bridge, it's because the track is so "compressed" together, there is a lot going on in such a tiny space. I feel PD would really change various aspects of this track, starting by drastically increasing the overall length more than a kilometer, just like they did with Trial Mountain. This would include increasing the main straight and some straights between the corners.

Honorable unlikely mentions:

Red Rock Valley Speedway - 1: Well, I feel kinda sad PD has completely forgotten about this precious gem. Its layout is surprisingly fun and realistic, plus it would come as a perfect shot for GT7, since the track would need almost no changes and would hit the nostalgia factor so hard.
Tahiti Road - 3: Another track I used to love. Combine a very simple and beginner-friendly layout with a breathtaking scenery and you would get another very smart addition for GT7. In this case, as this track is not that popular, PD could spice it up a little bit by modifying some sections and I'm pretty sure everyone would be okay with that.
El Capitan - 5: This track is probably not returning because Trial Mountain "took its location". But I included it here because it was a very fun track to drive on and it would be another really smart addition for GT7. Maybe stretching some sections would increase the overtaking spots, without killing the extreme aspect of the course.

I didn't mention any city circuit because most of them are based on real roads. As for the Special Stage Routes, I feel that the Tokyo Expressway is - unfortunately - a definitive replacement for them all.

 

[Grayfox]

I'm starting to think PD chose Trial Mountain as the first classic original track to showcase because they felt it would be one of the most affected OG track in terms of change

|

It might be due to scenery of Trial Mountain as a good way to show case the game on the PS5, Esp the light rays that come through the trees being good way to highlight ray tracing.

Grand Valley will be like a typical race track.
Grand Stands and stand traps and quite open.
High Speed Ring, Mid-Field is not too far off GV.

Autumn Ring is an interesting one.
Since the theme of the track is "Autumn" the yellows, orange and browns do add nice color to the track, but still open.

 

[DefNotJake]

I'm starting to think PD chose Trial Mountain as the first classic original track to showcase because they felt it would be one of the most affected OG track in terms of changes, so it would come as an even more shocking reveal, positively or negatively. I also put down a little theory trying to guess how much the other popular classic tracks will change based on their layouts and general scenery, using a scale from 0 (less likely to change) to 10 (more likely to change):

Apricot Hill Raceway - 0: The layout of this track is perfect and fits a real life circuit very well.
High Speed Ring - 1: A good example of an old-styled high speed circuit. It definitely won't need a drastic change.
Mid-Field Raceway - 2: Despite being an 8-figure track with 2 tunnels, it still has a pretty realistic shape. Some additional run-off areas should be enough.
Grand Valley Speedway - 4: Here I could feel some little issues with the slow section of the track, especially with those few turns before and after the first tunnel. Maybe that would force PD to stretch the track a little bit, not like the twice-as-large Trial Mountain stretching.
Deep Forest Raceway - 4: A very similar issue to Grand Valley could be the case here. I can see PD removing a corner on that quick right-left-right-left part after the second tunnel in favor of a wider run-off area.
Trial Mountain Circuit - 7: I listed a track we have already seen here just so you can see how I would rank this track among the others.
Autumn Ring - 9: In my humble opinion, if Autumn Ring is really coming back, get ready to see even more radical changes than those in Trial Mountain. No, it is not because of the spiral bridge, it's because the track is so "compressed" together, there is a lot going on in such a tiny space. I feel PD would really change various aspects of this track, starting by drastically increasing the overall length more than a kilometer, just like they did with Trial Mountain. This would include increasing the main straight and some straights between the corners.

Honorable unlikely mentions:

Red Rock Valley Speedway - 1: Well, I feel kinda sad PD has completely forgotten about this precious gem. Its layout is surprisingly fun and realistic, plus it would come as a perfect shot for GT7, since the track would need almost no changes and would hit the nostalgia factor so hard.
Tahiti Road - 3: Another track I used to love. Combine a very simple and beginner-friendly layout with a breathtaking scenery and you would get another very smart addition for GT7. In this case, as this track is not that popular, PD could spice it up a little bit by modifying some sections and I'm pretty sure everyone would be okay with that.
El Capitan - 5: This track is probably not returning because Trial Mountain "took its location". But I included it here because it was a very fun track to drive on and it would be another really smart addition for GT7. Maybe stretching some sections would increase the overtaking spots, without killing the extreme aspect of the course.

I didn't mention any city circuit because most of them are based on real roads. As for the Special Stage Routes, I feel that the Tokyo Expressway is - unfortunately - a definitive replacement for them all.

Maybe you are right, but I personally don't think Polyphony is dumb enough to simplify their most complex, and challenging courses in the game like Autumn Ring. Have you ever wondered why the Nordschleife, Laguna Seca, and Tsukuba are so popular among player hosted lobbies? It's because the tracks are tight and challenging, and offer something different from each other. Diversity.
Why is deep forest, Trial Mountain, Grand Valley ect. fan favorites? For the exact same reason.

If PD are going to simplify, and neuter all of their best fictional tracks, they are going to bloat the game just like the current fictional tracks do in GT Sport. Not all the fictional tracks need to look like tilkedromes or have ridiculous straights for drafting that will make you fall asleep if you aren't in a race car. If Polyphony want the tracks to look like real tracks, they should make new ones based off more 'local' tracks with actual amateur racing like Donington, Brands Hatch, V.I.R, Road Atlanta, and more... or they have another good option: add more real tracks.


Edit: let it be known the only reason to have a fictional track be added is for nostalgia, or because the track offers driving experiences not possible in real world tracks. And if it's neither of those, then it's added so Polyphony can bloat the game with more dull and samey tracks, without spending more money on licensing. That larger track count will look good on the back of the box but will it make the game better, or add anything to it? No, not if the track is just replicated off other tracks already in the game. I think Apricot Hill for this reason would be an awful track to add to the game. Why? Because it was made at a time when the track it was based off of (Suzuka/Suzuka East) wasn't in the game already. If there ever was an actual good reason to mutilate a fictional track of theirs, there you go Polyphony.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Honorable unlikely mentions:
Red Rock Valley Speedway - 1: Well, I feel kinda sad PD has completely forgotten about this precious gem. Its layout is surprisingly fun and realistic, plus it would come as a perfect shot for GT7, since the track would need almost no changes and would hit the nostalgia factor so hard.

If PD really are listening to the fans, then they'd know how much people want it back.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I'm starting to think PD chose Trial Mountain as the first classic original track to showcase because they felt it would be one of the most affected OG track in terms of changes, so it would come as an even more shocking reveal, positively or negatively. I also put down a little theory trying to guess how much the other popular classic tracks will change based on their layouts and general scenery, using a scale from 0 (less likely to change) to 10 (more likely to change):

Apricot Hill Raceway - 0: The layout of this track is perfect and fits a real life circuit very well.
High Speed Ring - 1: A good example of an old-styled high speed circuit. It definitely won't need a drastic change.
Mid-Field Raceway - 2: Despite being an 8-figure track with 2 tunnels, it still has a pretty realistic shape. Some additional run-off areas should be enough.
Grand Valley Speedway - 4: Here I could feel some little issues with the slow section of the track, especially with those few turns before and after the first tunnel. Maybe that would force PD to stretch the track a little bit, not like the twice-as-large Trial Mountain stretching.
Deep Forest Raceway - 4: A very similar issue to Grand Valley could be the case here. I can see PD removing a corner on that quick right-left-right-left part after the second tunnel in favor of a wider run-off area.
Trial Mountain Circuit - 7: I listed a track we have already seen here just so you can see how I would rank this track among the others.
Autumn Ring - 9: In my humble opinion, if Autumn Ring is really coming back, get ready to see even more radical changes than those in Trial Mountain. No, it is not because of the spiral bridge, it's because the track is so "compressed" together, there is a lot going on in such a tiny space. I feel PD would really change various aspects of this track, starting by drastically increasing the overall length more than a kilometer, just like they did with Trial Mountain. This would include increasing the main straight and some straights between the corners.

Honorable unlikely mentions:

Red Rock Valley Speedway - 1: Well, I feel kinda sad PD has completely forgotten about this precious gem. Its layout is surprisingly fun and realistic, plus it would come as a perfect shot for GT7, since the track would need almost no changes and would hit the nostalgia factor so hard.
Tahiti Road - 3: Another track I used to love. Combine a very simple and beginner-friendly layout with a breathtaking scenery and you would get another very smart addition for GT7. In this case, as this track is not that popular, PD could spice it up a little bit by modifying some sections and I'm pretty sure everyone would be okay with that.
El Capitan - 5: This track is probably not returning because Trial Mountain "took its location". But I included it here because it was a very fun track to drive on and it would be another really smart addition for GT7. Maybe stretching some sections would increase the overtaking spots, without killing the extreme aspect of the course.

I didn't mention any city circuit because most of them are based on real roads. As for the Special Stage Routes, I feel that the Tokyo Expressway is - unfortunately - a definitive replacement for them all.

Great write up. I agree with your assessment, Apricot/HSR/GVS would probably survive but I'm almost certain Deep Forest and Autumn Ring would be Tilke-ified. I don't want to even imagine what they would do if they bring back Citta di Aria or Amalfi