Original Track Redesigns - Good or Bad? [READ OP]

[ScottPuss20]

Great write up. I agree with your assessment, Apricot/HSR/GVS would probably survive but I'm almost certain Deep Forest and Autumn Ring would be Tilke-ified. I don't want to even imagine what they would do if they bring back Citta di Aria or Amalfi

I don't think they'd touch the layout of Deep Forest at all. They might iron out some of the bumps but I don't think that will ruin the track. Forget about the Autumn Ring though - it's not going to come back. The thing about Citta Di Aria is that the roads are real so there's no way for the layout to be changed, unless the entire route was changed of course. Costa Di Amalfi isn't a real road but I don't know how they could ruin it, because it's very much defined by the geography of the island. Then again I don't expect any of these narrow circuits to come back.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I don't think they'd touch the layout of Deep Forest at all. They might iron out some of the bumps but I don't think that will ruin the track. Forget about the Autumn Ring though - it's not going to come back. The thing about Citta Di Aria is that the roads are real so there's no way for the layout to be changed, unless the entire route was changed of course. Costa Di Amalfi isn't a real road but I don't know how they could ruin it, because it's very much defined by the geography of the island. Then again I don't expect any of these narrow circuits to come back.

Same thing is Trial Mountain - wider roads, walls pushed back, and probably longer front straight to accomodate longer pitlane. Maybe throw a chicane before the first tunnel as well. But I'm not going to give them any ideas

Yeah it's sad just how many awesome circuits from GT2/4 will never see the light of day again. Mik Hizal said El Capitan is his favourite track in his interview on GTTV, so that's a hint for PD

 

[ScottPuss20]

Same thing is Trial Mountain - wider roads, walls pushed back, and probably longer front straight to accomodate longer pitlane. Maybe throw a chicane before the first tunnel as well. But I'm not going to give them any ideas

Yeah it's sad just how many awesome circuits from GT2/4 will never see the light of day again. Mik Hizal said El Capitan is his favourite track in his interview on GTTV, so that's a hint for PD

Yes I know but some circuits should stay in the past.

 

[Skython]

It's a good point the whole FIA thing, how would they implement small fun tracks in a similar vein to Motorland? Small venues with real 'small local track' appeal. If we have kei cars and the like there needs to be a couple of small and fairly tight little tracks for them, but if they need to meet FIA standards that might not be possible, which would be a shame. I like kei cars, but they'd be boring on the new Trial Mountain (though to be fair, they weren't exactly exhilarating on the old version).

 

[corvette Mark]

don't forget DAYTONA!

0. Introduction
I don't normally make new threads but original Gran Turismo tracks are a topic I hold quite dear (and I believe there are lots of others who are the same) so here goes.

Just like everyone else who have watched the trailer, I'm so excited to see Trial Mountain back in the next game. I have been playing since GT1 and it's not an understatement that I've probably turned thousands of laps on the track. Before I even knew about the Nordschleife, I had already memorized TM to memory. However, my excitement turned to horror as soon as I saw the track map, and it sank further upon seeing the onboard footage seeing how badly the track layout and surrounding scenery has been changed.

1. What has changed?
- Track has been widened in a lot of places.
- Cliff faces pushed back.
- Tunnel lighting is totally different (single white light in the middle instead of yellow on both sides).
- Undulations on the backstraight are flattened.
- Tree canopies on after tunnel are pared back. Remember how gorgeous the sunlight streaming through the canopy in GT3 looked?
- Downhill esses are wider and less steep, so it's less exciting and challenging.
- Finally, worst of all, that fast final chicane is now Tilkeified into a slow mickey mouse section. There is only one correct line through the old chicane, and a tricky bump on the exit that can catch you out if you're not careful. Now it's basically just Spa's bus stop that encourages divebombing.

2. Sometimes change is necessary.
OK, I can accept change is sometimes necessary. I didn't even like the esports direction of GT Sport at first but now I'm hooked (500 sport mode races and counting).
- I understand the way the original tracks were designed doesn't look good anymore for current generation (a narrow tunnel of road with walls/trees on both sides, with no surrounding scenery and basically the whole thing just floating in mid air).
- I can accept that graphical updates are necessary, and the surrounding scenery needs to be filled in for those wide angle replays during broadcasts.
BUT we can do that without radically changing the layout and flow of the track.
- High Speed Ring looked radically different (and much longer) in GT5/6 but still has all the character of the original from GT1-4.
- Grand Valley and Midfield also had some corners changed (esses before tunnel squared off in GV and first 2 corners squared off in Midfield), but mostly survived intact.
- Apricot Hill, Deep Forest, Autumn Ring and the Special Stage tracks survived pretty much intact in GT5-6, and no one ever complained they looked unrealistic or bad to drive.
- The SS Routes have been replaced with Tokyo Expressway in GT Sport, which are completely different and (correctly) called a different name, so I'm okay with that.

3. Old Trial Mountain doesn't meet FIA safety standards or realistic physics.
- Dragon Trail's death chicane would never be approved in real life either. Same with all Tokyo Expressway tracks due to lack of runoff.
- The new TM chicane, also doesn't have any runoff area on the outside. Which actually makes it even worse than the old design in terms of safety because you're arriving at higher speed, and the wall is now 90 degree to the track.
- Physics looks to be mostly the same from GTS, which is also similar to GT6, so it's not even an argument at this point. I've driven Trial Mountain as a mod in Assetto Corsa and it's perfectly driveable even with more realistic physics.
- The great thing about fictional tracks is you can make amazing driving experiences without thinking considerations of cost, safety, regulations and all those limitations IRL. So why limit yourself? We will still have all the realistically modelled real world tracks in the game too.

4. Old TM straight/pitlane is too short for 20+ car races.
- They could scale the whole track larger (like new High Speed Ring) so it could fit on the main straight without changing the basic layout.
- Alternatively, they could be more creative in designing the pit shape (e.g. Eiger Nordwand has one that doubles back on itself).
- Ultimately though, I don't think this is an issue because the current pitstops in GTS always have your car teleporting straight to a pitbox after you entered. It makes no difference whether you have your own spot or not. We've raced at Tsukuba, Willow and Goodwood which has short pitlanes (even Tokyo South with its weird parking garage pit).

5. New chicane would provide overtaking opportunity.
- Maybe yes, but given a chicane by nature doubles back on itself, you will get overtaken straight away again on the second part. It looks like it increases overtaking, but it will just promote desperate last corner divebombs with no actual position change.
- The old chicane is very tricky to get right which leads to more mistakes, and you can take advantage by slipstreaming someone into T1 and overtaking there.

6. Issues with rolling starts & reverse layout as first corner.
- Tidgney (a frequent GT World Tour competitor) in his GT7 trailer review made a point that, in Sport Mode races with rolling start, people in mid and rear field positions would probably start in the middle or just before the chicane. Effectively punishing them before the race even began. It's the same problem in GTS currently whenever there are races on Sarthe/Spa/Suzuka/Barcelona. No such issues with the old fast chicane because it's easy flat from rolling start speeds.
- If we ever race new Trial Mountain in reverse, the chicane is going to be the first corner. You all know how Monza starts tend to go...

7. Conclusion...and a solution (or two)!
I was so excited about seeing old tracks come back to life, but after seeing what they've done to Trial Mountain, I'd rather they just live in memory before they butcher anymore of these

But I also like to be positive, so I'd like to propose a compromise

Dear Polyphony Digital and Kazunori Yamauchi, if you are reading this, please consider adding BOTH the "historic" and "modern" version of Trial Mountain, along with any other original tracks you're planning to bring back.

In older games we have seen La Sarthe 2005/2009, Monza/Brands 80s/modern and Fuji 80s/90s/modern so they have precedent for this.

Alternatively, you could just insert the old chicane into the grassy field area inside the new chicane, as I demonstrated HERE.

If they can include 3 ovals in GT Sport without any NASCAR, and 3 rally tracks that are never used in FIA, surely they can include our old beloved Trial Mountain too?

Thank you for the consideration.



Yours sincerely,
A fan since 1998

 

[Samus]

if they need to meet FIA standards

They quite clearly don't. Many of the GTS tracks are deathtraps.

 

[wagnerFAM98]

After all these months, I still didn't get why they stretched the straights from Trial Mountain that much. I mean, look at Alsace's main straight, it's probably even shorter than Trial Mountain's original main straight length. It doesn't make any sense.

I'm not 100% against the stretching on the new TM, maybe making it a little bit longer was actually necessary to give it a more realistic feel. But I think they've gone too far, it simply didn't need to be that long.

 

[05XR8]

Maybe it's a question gtplanet could ask Kaz.

I don't know. Looking at Original Circuits, Dragon Trail Seaside & DTG have a long front straights, St Croix, Sardegna, Tokyo East & South Loops.

We'll have to see how it plays out in Sport Mode.

 

[DefNotJake]

maybe making it a little bit longer was actually necessary to give it a more realistic feel.

If they wanted to make the track feel real, they would have actually added walls to the track, without an exposed audience and trees. I think its more likely they are simplifying all their fictional tracks down to be easier for the more casual users. Would explain them widening the track, along with the longer straights as you said. It's a shame too, because it really is just watering down a track that once had a really interesting layout that would be interesting to drive, no matter how slow of a car you were driving.

 

[Skython]

They quite clearly don't. Many of the GTS tracks are deathtraps.

It looks to me like PD's thing with FIA isn't so much about safety as it is about layouts good for racing (overtakes, etc), so the deathtrap thing is irrelevant. I'm saying that it would explain why the tracks are so wide and a bit samey to drive, seeing as the FIA's real world modern high grade race circuits are often met with the same criticisms. I'd imagine they'd probably follow suit with original tracks they choose to re-include, as Trial Mountain seems to be a compromise between the esport usability and fan service. I was simply questioning how they would implement smaller (tighter) original tracks that in no way would work for say, a gr3 esport race. Will they just not have tracks like that? And if so, then driving slow cars might get a bit boring due to there being Tsukuba, and maybe one or two other suitable circuits for them. And slow cars are quite important to Gran Turismo (subjectively), hence why there was always so damn many in previous titles.

 

[Samus]

But the FIA have nothing to do with track design and layout. That is down to circuit designers. All the FIA care about is how safe it, that's it.

 

[Skython]

But the FIA have nothing to do with track design and layout. That is down to circuit designers. All the FIA care about is how safe it, that's it.

Why would the safety matter in a game? I guess you could say that the FIA wouldn't want such unsafe track design associated with themselves, but we got to this point so clearly that isn't the case. But for the sake of it, just forget I mentioned the FIA, or let's assume you're right about the FIA thing because it's a minute detail. Let's just say I'm talking about PD's general track design direction. If PD's recent track design is meant to incorporate esports, then they might not make more unique circuits or bring back old circuits faithfully because they won't be up to their esport standard.

 

[Samus]

Why would the safety matter in a game? I guess you could say that the FIA wouldn't want such unsafe track design associated with themselves, but we got to this point so clearly that isn't the case. But for the sake of it, just forget I mentioned the FIA, or let's assume you're right about the FIA thing because it's a minute detail. Let's just say I'm talking about PD's general track design direction. If PD's recent track design is meant to incorporate esports, then they might not make more unique circuits or bring back old circuits faithfully because they won't be up to their esport standard.

But what is "esport standard"? Virtual racing is not like real racing, you can overtake in games where you can't in the real world, and they still include real world tracks that are hard to overtake on, such as Catalunya. Some of the new fictional tracks in GTS are pretty bad for racing, Tokyo being the obvious standout. That was clearly not designed with racing in mind, it was to appeal to the "Wangan highway" fans, like the SSR's in past games.

I just think it's as simple as they're modernising the circuits how they see fit, just as they have already in the past with tracks like High Speed Ring. Until they say otherwise, I don't see any evidence they're doing it for any specific reason.

 

[DefNotJake]

Some of the new fictional tracks in GTS are pretty bad for racing, Tokyo being the obvious standout.

Wholeheartedly disagree. South Outer Loop is one of the best fictional tracks in the game, if not the best. Sure the rest of the Tokyo layouts are pretty uninspired, but this one is a great track for cars of the pace of mid range sport cars and low grip tires. My favorite part about it? No needing to guess where the track limits are. My only real issue with it is GT's lack of good contact physics result in a lot of wall riding.

 

[Skython]

But what is "esport standard"? Virtual racing is not like real racing, you can overtake in games where you can't in the real world, and they still include real world tracks that are hard to overtake on, such as Catalunya. Some of the new fictional tracks in GTS are pretty bad for racing, Tokyo being the obvious standout. That was clearly not designed with racing in mind, it was to appeal to the "Wangan highway" fans, like the SSR's in past games.

I just think it's as simple as they're modernising the circuits how they see fit, just as they have already in the past with tracks like High Speed Ring. Until they say otherwise, I don't see any evidence they're doing it for any specific reason.

Touchè. Esport standard was more or less a term pulled from my ass, as you would have guessed. My main point is just concern for original track variety, what type of gameplay they cater their original circuits to (real circuits aren't really relevant here). If it's catered to official capacity online events, we could easily have less unique tracks.

I'd say you're right about the motivation behind modernising pre-existing tracks. Though surely they must consider ways to improve the quality of racing when making these changes, hence the reshaping of the final chicane. Though I can't account for PD's choices being the appropriate ones.

 

[corvette Mark]

For Me, I like things being redone in a whole new level also for Trail Mountain, Its as Changed for the years with the same of other tracks in Gran turismo. But I would be Happy if Indianapolis Speedway was including in this Because It desperately needs a major update on designing and other thing PD can cook up in their Headquarters in Japan. Including, I would be extremely Happy if PD make One or two more updates to GT Sport to bring Trail Mountain and Daytona in the World Of Gran Turismo just a little bit early as expected. Then during that there would be a Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6),09 and a Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) LM Race Car,09 in one update but for the other one is The ZO6 (C6) and LM race car version turn. Because I miss Using Those cars form GT5 and GT6.

 

[Doomotron]

I really liked the old layout of Trial Mountain as it was in GT3 and GT4, particularly the beautiful forest section. I didn't like how they got rid of the rocks in GT5 and 6, but it was still fun to drive on. That said, the track was never that good with racing cars. It was always at its best with moderately fast cars like the Nissan Skyline GTR or Lotus Elise. It was just too thin for anything faster. I think rebuilding the track for faster cars is good, but I just wished they'd kept it at least a little bit more like the old track - some sections are completely unrecognisable. The last chicane is also crap.

That said, none of us can truly make a judgement on the new layout until we actually play the game, assuming none of you have been so turned off by the new layout you are refusing to buy GT7!

 

[corvette Mark]

the one point I'm saying is if polyphony puts trial mountain and Daytona into gt Sport prior to gt 7's production, it will test how Trail mountain and Daytona are in the modern area, including put at least 10 new cars into GT Sport with Trail mountain and Daytona but 4 of 10 of those car I'm Talking about are returners form GT6 and which DESERVED to return in Gran Turismo are the main C6 Corvette's that made their appearance on Gt5 and then got Returned into GT6 but now hopefully into GT Sport. (2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 "C6",2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 "C6", 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 C6 LM Race car, 2006 Corvette Z06 C6 lm race car.) Oh! and don't forget the 2001 Pagani Zonda LM race car in the mix with the Vette's. I also think the Zonda LM race car will be a great Gr.3 car because of it's max horsepower at ‎632 BHP and a top speed of 225mph (362km/h) and I also think this Zonda could rival Gr.1 cars like the Mazda LM55 when it fully tuned to the max. but of the Zr1 LM,09 tops it off at 818BHP



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I really liked the old layout of Trial Mountain as it was in GT3 and GT4, particularly the beautiful forest section. I didn't like how they got rid of the rocks in GT5 and 6, but it was still fun to drive on. That said, the track was never that good with racing cars. It was always at its best with moderately fast cars like the Nissan Skyline GTR or Lotus Elise. It was just too thin for anything faster. I think rebuilding the track for faster cars is good, but I just wished they'd kept it at least a little bit more like the old track - some sections are completely unrecognisable. The last chicane is also crap.

That said, none of us can truly make a judgement on the new layout until we actually play the game, assuming none of you have been so turned off by the new layout you are refusing to buy GT7!

 

[Mariangello]

i watched a GT4 video of Costa d'Amalfi. Man, there was some serious air at one of the uphill esses. That track would definitely need an overhaul.

Yes and yes, my Ferarri 250 GTO is ready. I loved that track.

 

[Keef]

After all these months, I still didn't get why they stretched the straights from Trial Mountain that much. I mean, look at Alsace's main straight, it's probably even shorter than Trial Mountain's original main straight length. It doesn't make any sense.

I'm not 100% against the stretching on the new TM, maybe making it a little bit longer was actually necessary to give it a more realistic feel. But I think they've gone too far, it simply didn't need to be that long.

View attachment 988260

They basically never use Alsace for daily races but in my experience both straights on this track are actually too short to effectively draft and pass someone. The second straight in fact has a difficult arcing braking zone which means somebody is either backing out early (which never happens) or going into the grass (which always happens). Alsace is a fun technical track but it's not actually good for racing and passing.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Alsace is a fun technical track but it's not actually good for racing and passing.

There's too many medium and high speed corners that blend into each other. You need a large pace advantage to make your overtake stick and that kills the fun. It's astounding how such a bad track can be made on a blank canvas. What were they thinking?

 

[Keef]

There's too many medium and high speed corners that blend into each other. You need a large pace advantage to make your overtake stick and that kills the fun. It's astounding how such a bad track can be made on a blank canvas. What were they thinking?

I actually use that track to test and compare higher speed cars. Because it's technical it tests all the characteristics of those cars that I need, is easily repeatable, and minor mistakes or variations don't cost a ton of time.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

They basically never use Alsace for daily races but in my experience both straights on this track are actually too short to effectively draft and pass someone. The second straight in fact has a difficult arcing braking zone which means somebody is either backing out early (which never happens) or going into the grass (which always happens). Alsace is a fun technical track but it's not actually good for racing and passing.

The straights are short so you don't overtake on the straights using drafting. The wide track width and long corners allow multiple racing lines, so you overtake by setting up the car in front of you a few corners before, to get them to enter the next corner on the wrong line, and use your better exit to overtake down the next "straight".

Lots of overtakes in the recent World Series race (start around 20:00). Watch the last lap battle between Beetle and Mazda especially

 

[05XR8]

I guess the dam at HSR will be somewhat interactive:

spillway closed

open

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Interactive? Dynamic you mean? Unless PD includes hovercrafts for us to launch off the top of the dam

Still not sure how I feel about the tightened T2 at HSR. The cynical me feels it's yet another attempt at promoting overtaking (read:divebombs). But the original HSR back in GT1/2 was a much tighter track than the later versions.

 

[05XR8]

Interactive? Dynamic you mean? Unless PD includes hovercrafts for us to launch off the top of the dam

Still not sure how I feel about the tightened T2 at HSR. The cynical me feels it's yet another attempt at promoting overtaking (read:divebombs). But the original HSR back in GT1/2 was a much tighter track than the later versions.

I say interactive, as in, your car passes and the water spews out. Will it be on a timer? Don't know. Will have to sit at that point in the track to find out.

That shout of T2 nearly reminds me of Albert Park final turn, but mirrored. Guess it's more like Indy or Phoenix?

 

[eran0004]

Still not sure how I feel about the tightened T2 at HSR. The cynical me feels it's yet another attempt at promoting overtaking (read:divebombs). But the original HSR back in GT1/2 was a much tighter track than the later versions.

Yeah, turn two always catches me out when I go back to those games.

I think this change could make the track feel even faster, it’s easy to lose to the sense of speed if all the corners are fast.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Will be interesting. The change doesn't look as awful as Trial Mountain redux at least, though the lake setting still looks ridiculous

 

[05XR8]

Edit: Had a look again. The cars are moving left to right.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I say interactive, as in, your car passes and the water spews out. Will it be on a timer? Don't know. Will have to sit at that point in the track to find out.

That shout of T2 nearly reminds me of Albert Park final turn, but mirrored. Guess it's more like Indy or Phoenix?

Ah I see what you mean now. I think it's just going to be on a preset timer, like the planes at Blue Moon Bay. I don't think you can see that part of the dam when you're actually driving anyway, only in replays/photomode.

T2 will probably feel like the tight T1 at BB Raceway forward.