Ovals VS Road Courses

[Nish]

I'm no American and I wasn't defending Nascar I was defending peoples rights of wanting more tracks for it in this racing game. I find Nascar very boring to watch, even the passing isn't too exciting. Every other racing series that is involved with GT5 gets more than 3 tracks (included Infineon) so why not let Nascar fans have thiers also, is all I was tring to get across.

 

[UK-Gamer]

I'm no American and I wasn't defending Nascar I was defending peoples rights of wanting more tracks for it in this racing game. I find Nascar very boring to watch, even the passing isn't too exciting. Every other racing series that is involved with GT5 gets more than 3 tracks (included Infineon) so why not let Nascar fans have thiers also, is all I was tring to get across.

I wasn't talking about you but in general usually if you hear someone say NASCAR is boring ect. Americans tend to be very defensive and lash out with everything.

 

[Eric Demory]

I do not want GT5 to turn into Nascar by a whole lot. By that, I mean of not many oval tracks. Though racing in a circle a few times may be fun and all, but of course it will lose its excitement after a few continuous left turns around slanted corners at around 150 to 200mph (depending on the car's handling).

But I need excitement once in a while. By that, I mean more road tracks. More corners, bind corners, open, and a twist to all of it.

If I were a bigger racing fan (into watching races on the television) then, I would like 500 miles of driving in a circle myself.

 

[Clark]

Nascar isn't about the driving as much, the thrill isn't soley from that. Alot of the exitment from Nascaris the racing which is generally ten times closer than F1.

 

[Northstar]

thats not real racing

There is no such thing as "real" or "fake" racing, it either is or it isn't, there really is no gray area and it isn't an opinion.

Also, you may want to look at this, mainly the rule referring to grammar. 👍

 

[scope72]

I wasn't talking about you but in general usually if you hear someone say NASCAR is boring ect. Americans tend to be very defensive and lash out with everything.

If you call NASCAR boring, then NASCAR fans will lash out. Now, most NASCAR fans are Americans.

But, I wouldn't lump the two together. They are not synonymous. American Football and specifically the NFL is by far the most popular sport in the States. In reality, motorsports in America just are not as popular in the U.S. as they are in Europe. It's not even close.

Besides, I have seen lots of Europeans lash out when Americans bash a sport they like. Don't forget, culturally, the United States is not that much different than Europe. Sometimes we only look at our differences, but we have a whole lot more similarities than we often admit.

 

[analog]

But, I wouldn't lump the two together. They are not synonymous. American Football and specifically the NFL is by far the most popular sport in the States. In reality, motorsports in America just are not as popular in the U.S. as they are in Europe. It's not even close.

As popular as some forms of motorsports ( particular F1 ) might be in Europe or appear to be, even here it isn't the most popular sport by far.
It's football ( or soccer ) by quite a margin, F1 may be big but compared to football every other sport seems marginal.
So yes indeed, there are similarities.

 

[scope72]

So yes indeed, there are similarities.

See, I knew what I was talking about after all.

 

[analog]

See, I knew what I was talking about after all.

Yes you did, I think it's a bit of a misconception that most Europeans are hardcore Tifosi who are enthusiastic about anything that goes fast on wheels when in reality the percentage of petrolheads interested in motorsport in either Europe and the US may not differ that much ( haven't got the statistics to prove it though ).
We may have a more diverse range of motorsport being offered here which may get confused with more people being interested in them.

Maybe the football analogy might explain the NASCAR situation somewhat, American football and soccer ( or football as it's commonly known in the rest of the world ) are entirely different games with even differently shaped balls attracting different fans sharing the name football ( or in the case of NASCAR or oval racing in general compared to European tracks and racing series, both share being motorsport and being about racing despite being completely different in approach, rules and fanbase ).
Poor analogy perhaps and although I'm not a keen follower of NASCAR I do look forward to it in GT5 as one approach or way of thinking doesn't have to rule out the other as the fact it's being offered to experience will perhaps persuade those who weren't interested before ( or confirm their reservations ).

 

[scope72]

Yea, I am really looking forward to NASCAR, too. Personally, I follow F1 religiously, and especially love the constant pursuit of the technological upper hand. It is, by far, my favorite motorsport. But that does not make me want to despise another motorsport. Heck I live in the middle of NASCAR country (well Nashville isn't really, but the American South), but that doesn't mean I have to hate it or love it.

I guess I'm just not a hater. If even one person has an interest in something, then I want to know why they love it. I want to understand their love and learn about that. Unfortunately, it seems the opposite is true for most people, but it is good to see someone else who see's things similarly.

I can understand someone not liking NASCAR, however what frustrates me is the "ovals are so boring" statements. If that is your main reason for not liking NASCAR, then you are missing the point.

I think darkblade put it really well in his earlier post.

By the way Analog, this was originally meant as a conversation with you, but slowly turned to a random rant. So, please don't feel any of it was directed at you.

 

[Dave A]

As popular as some forms of motorsports ( particular F1 ) might be in Europe or appear to be, even here it isn't the most popular sport by far.
It's football ( or soccer ) by quite a margin, F1 may be big but compared to football every other sport seems marginal.
So yes indeed, there are similarities.

Indeedy, I think a lot of people fall into a similar bracket as myself of liking cars and automotive things but finding motor sport a bit boring to watch in anything but smaller doses. Football on the other hand, I could watch that all day. Sometimes I do, 4 or 5 matches in a day . Football (soccer) is by a long shot the leading sport in Europe, cricket probably comes second in the UK, how I don't quite know, but it probably does. So Scopes comment about NASCAR being way behind NFL and American Football is very believable.

I prefer racing games to watching real races by a long shot, there's something too procedural about watching a car going round the same corners over and over be it a NASCAR, FIA GT or Touring Car race. Though the BTCC races do tend to be the more interesting imo, I think that's more because of the heav contact that's often involved though.

I will enjoy taking cars round the ovals though, not all the time granted, but that's why we have so many other tracks as well. Variety is the spice of life.

 

[udrive]

Not to sound like a "defensive proud American" but I grew up in the Deep South in the heart of NASCAR's roots. My family took me to the local oval dirt track every 3rd Saturday of the month to watch the modifieds go at it. Watching this stuff live on a track barely 1/4 mile in total length was unbelievable. We'd pay the extra $2 to go into the pits and see the cars up close and talk to the drivers. It was awesome. In fact, I was so moved by it that I got into go-kart racing as a kid and my parents let me drive the thing all over our plot of land. I competed in a couple of local kart races but never moved up from there...

Fast-forward to being a grown up, I've never really gotten into the NASCAR series. Given my childhood, one would think that it would be something that I really enjoyed but no.... I have the same complaints that everyone else has: 1) it is somewhat boring to watch on TV, and 2) they just make left turns.

However, I think you'd be surprised how fun playing a good NASCAR sim can be....and I stress GOOD. Back in the day, driving around Bristol with 30 other cars on NASCAR Racing 1999 edition was nerve racking and exciting all wrapped in one. It was so difficult to actually play the game without being a human wrecking ball around the track.

Anyway, I think my point is that Kaz knows what he's doing. He's adding a little mix of everything so that everyone has something that they enjoy but also everyone has something new to try that may be a little out of their typical racing comfort zone.

 

[SigmaViper11]

See, this whole argument of Nascar vsother racing series. This is why you utilize ovals that have roadcourses built in.

 

[Nish]

See, this whole argument of Nascar vsother racing series. This is why you utilize ovals that have roadcourses built in.

👍

 

[darkblade986]

For one thing, my defensiveness over NASCAR stems from the fact that just about everyone's main argument against it is to oversimplify it down to "guys driving in circles." When you simplify it down that far, yeah, sure. It sounds boring. For the "other racing series" guys, it boils down to "just turning left." Still, you're taking an extreme oversimplification.

Soccer: Guys kicking a ball.

Football: Guying running and throwing a ball.

Baseball: Guys hitting a ball.


For another thing, NASCAR is essentially *the* automotive sport of America. (At this point, when I say NASCAR, I mean the Cup series). All of the races take place in America, so we're the ones so deeply exposed to it. It's something to call our own. Indycar, the "other" racing series, in contrast, goes all across the American Continents. A quick look at their schedule shows races in Brazil, Ontario, Alberta, and Japan.

NASCAR also becomes a weekly thing. For the entire season, we get to sit down and watch yet another race each and every week. Through the Summer, no less, when most of the other big sports are on break (Football, Hockey, Baseball, etc).

I could really keep this argument going on and on and on, but I don't really feel like it. The arguments in summary (including from previous post) are:

1) It's not about the performance, it's about the competition

2) It's not about the performance, it's about the manufacturers showing off their cars

3) On the really good tracks, you get incredible racing.

4) The cars can actually take a hit, meaning drivers can beat and bang on each other. Our rules on that kind of stuff are less strict as a result. We don't have any "no blocking" rules like IZOD.

5) Beer. History. Period.

6) Weekly affair. We get a fresh race each week for well more than half the year.

7) We're not going all over the world. We stay relatively local. With how often and how diverse the locations are, it gives us more time to actually go to a race. 36 opportunities for 36 weeks amongst 23 tracks stretching from California to New Hampshire to Florida means that you're never impossibly far away from a race if you really want to go (short of Hawaii and Alaska, but they're left out of everything anyways).

8) Failing the above arguments, we just like to go fast. By widening and banking the turns, these cars go about as fast as you'd like and there's a thrill in that.

9) NASCAR is a sport made for the fans. If you followed NASCAR, you'd see that better. Have you seen the opening ceremony for the Daytona 500? The front stretch becomes a concert. *For the Fans.* We allow the fans to walk through the Garage area. We let them get right up close with the cars and drivers and we try to make the races entertaining for them.

9.5) Ever notice how jumpy NASCAR is with cautions? What does that do to the field? It bunches them all back together. Guess what? 43 cars are now slammed back into a 500ft chain of cars going 150mph. WE. HAVE. RACING... *AGAIN.* F1 and the like only throw local cautions and let the drivers keep going fast on their own. We slow them down, bring them together, and make 'em fight again.

9.75) Expanding from 7, we race through the Summer. Summer implies Summer Vacation. Summer Vacation implies going to do something you enjoy not work related and away from home. We have the Summer Vacation sports market practically locked up. Otherwise, you're looking at going to a sporting event only if it's in your home state (NASCAR has no home state for events, short of Charlotte as a base) on the odd weekend it's close by (we go all over the place) on the rare weekend it's actually participating (weekly. event).

That's all I got to say. There's a dedicated NASCAR game coming out anyways, so you won't have to deal with us NASCAR guys for too much longer. We'll hang around, but we won't be in your face looking to get Texas, Atlanta, and all the rest of our tracks into the game.

 

[DG_Silva]

You forgot about the openess and transparency about NASCAR too. When you buy a programme for the race, it also lists all the radio frequencies for the drivers, so you can listen in to the team conversations all race long.

 

[darkblade986]

Exactly. Again, it's a sport for the Fans, not for the sake of competition. There's even a frequency for the Officials communications. Not only can you get behind the scenes with the drivers, but for the most part, you can get behind the scenes of the operations as well.

 

[Teh_Loserer]

Exactly. Again, it's a sport for the Fans' money, not for the sake of competition.

Fixed.

 

[Dan360]

I don't think it'll be fun to drive slow cars at an oval. A 'roval' is not challenging, compared to permanent race tracks. I prefer road courses, since you can use the whole of the track, and still miss the walls.

 

[TheDabbinDave]

Saying "NASCAR is all about the fans", is putting it very mildly. This past August, we were blessed to be invited through Lucky Dog Speedway Charities to go to our home track MIS 3 hours away. Our youngest son has CP. We got spend Friday in a suite, hung out with Joey Logano, he had no clue he'd be driving a Gran Turismo 5 themed car . We were brought to a room right by the garage exit entering pit road. The drivers had a choice to come and visit with us, answer questions, and sign autographs. We had a great turnout of drivers. The vast majority of whom gave an honest impression of appreciation for their position in life.

Here are a few shots, forgive the blur of my phone, lighting was dim.

 

[HKS racer]

I think ovals are good variation but not the main thing, at least for me

I want only a few ovals and a lot of road courses

 

[analog]

By the way Analog, this was originally meant as a conversation with you, but slowly turned to a random rant. So, please don't feel any of it was directed at you.

I am aware this is a public forum, not a private conversation.

I prefer racing games to watching real races by a long shot, there's something too procedural about watching a car going round the same corners over and over be it a NASCAR, FIA GT or Touring Car race. Though the BTCC races do tend to be the more interesting imo, I think that's more because of the heav contact that's often involved though.

Feel the same way, the only races I do tend to watch from beginning to end are F1 although BTCC often attracts my attention too as the racing and close contact ( or too close a lot of the time ) are often more fun to watch than most other series combined.
I try to watch racing on telly but more often than not I get either bored halfway or get 'inspired' to switch on the PS3 and start racing myself.

 

[SCUD77]

I don't think it'll be fun to drive slow cars at an oval. A 'roval' is not challenging, compared to permanent race tracks. I prefer road courses, since you can use the whole of the track, and still miss the walls.

Roval ?
slow cars on an oval surely is a slowval
I have probably said this before but my dislike of ovals including the infield race tracks is the lack of soul, they all seem to be flat concrete walled tarmac.
Daytona does not have the appeal of Laguna Seca ! the cars appeal but the track's just don't.

 

[shirakawaa]

Certain historic rovals would be great though.
Monza, Monthléry, etc.

 

[Dan360]

Roval ?

It's a track where in uses part of an oval. Well known examples are Indianapollis or Daytona. I don't believe its challenging, since it lacks elvation and fast, sweeping corners.

 

[lingenfelterz06]

Well, if we get DLC then I'm all for as many tracks (Ovals and Road Courses) as possible

 

[SigmaViper11]

Well, if we get DLC then I'm all for as many tracks (Ovals and Road Courses) as possible

Agreed.

Also on a personal note, used to be a NASCAR fan. but lost interest in it. It'd definetly be more interesting (to me anyway) if they drove in the rain. I think ovals can be fun.

I remember reading somewhere that drivers skilled in road course driving have an easier time driving on an oval. (I think that was with using the same machine as opposed to say Indy and F1 drivers coming to NASCAR)

So an oval would be a nice fun break from something like say the green hell. But in a game that is featuring NASCAR as one part in a large collection of disciplines I'm going to say for the time being, limit to only Ovals with Road Courses or if that's not a viable option just limit the number of ovals. Cuz the reality is, yes you're trying to bring in a new fan base with Nascar and Oval tracks, but you don't want to alienate the massive fan base that you've establihed with road courses and the different series' cars that have been featured that were built to run on them. How many types of NASCARS are there currently. 3? 4? Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Toyota? Now you take what. . . Audi, Peugeot, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Chevy, Dodge, Mazda, Ford, Bentley, Toyota and Nissan? Those are just off the top of my head that I know for a fact have participated in some form of Le Mans series cars. Most of all the other cars used in GT are in fact more useful as some form of Touring car. And while taking a lot of these cars to an oval would be fun, most people who play the GT series know you don't get to really feel the car until you get the thing on a proper Road Course; Laguna Seca, Nurburgring, Circuit De La Sarthe. With limited disc space and the mass following that GT has, the reality is that Road Courses will always dominate. I would imagine that the hot tracks, like Bristol, Daytona and the like might get picked off, a full or even significant roster in terms of numbers for NASCAR based tracks is very unlikely. Even though NASCAR is the "fastest growing motorsport", the fas they are acquiring arent changing alleginaces. Nascar may be getting international attention, but many of those international fans will still like the appeal to Touring car or open wheel racing on what will most likely be Road Courses.

I am American. NASCAR fans and Americans are not Synonymous. I'd take a GT car over a NASCAR machine any day of the week as well as drive a road course.
But that doesnt mean I don't appreciate the high powered beasts that Nascar uses, or the Ovals they run.
Each racing series has its own little characteristics to respect and appreciate.
But with the reality of limited tech and space, while Nascar and some of its circuits will be featured (which is badass), don't expect the Nascar series to muscle over all the other series in GT and take a dominant position. Cuz some of you are arguing like thats what you hope/expect.

One other thing to consider is that theres also the disciplines of Rallye, Drag and Drift.

With drifting really coming up, complex corners will be a must. Maybe not Nurburgring complex, but intersting.

My point. Nascar is awesome in its own unique respect as are ovals, but GT type series and Road Courses aren't going anywhere.

Besides, I'm betting if you look at tracks built across the world, theres probably more Road Courses than Ovals.

OK that was a bit of a rant, but it does have a point.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I believe most oval road courses are, at worst, only as dull as the Top Gear Test Track, which if you ignore the hype of the show (and the stig), is a pretty boring track. But I suspect many Oval/Roval haters would still spend alot of time at Dunsfold?


Also, as far as real-life racing circuits go, IIRC.. there have been no BTCC, WTCC, or DTM tracks.. and I'm not sure how many real-life tracks that are used in GT racing were featured in GT4 (Super GT is represented obviously)?

Only one LMS track too (la Sarthe?)

Monza and with the Nürburgring GP track even it up slightly.. (one DTM tracks and one WTCC track)

My point is, actually, not many actual racing series are that well supported by GT in terms of tracks, therefore it wouldn't suprise me if 2-3 ovals was the max we had?

I still want more real world tracks, less fantasy tracks, and less fantasy city circuits.

 

[McLaren]

It's a track where in uses part of an oval. Well known examples are Indianapollis or Daytona. I don't believe its challenging, since it lacks elvation and fast, sweeping corners.

I think the first turn at Daytona would disagree considering the speed coming into it & difficulty.

 

[crab66]

I still want more real world tracks, less fantasy tracks, and less fantasy city circuits.

I prefer both. Some of the fictional tracks are just as enjoyable as the real ones in my opinion. And there is that element of nostalgia from previous GT games. I think variety is what is important as I'm sure we could include 50 real life oval tracks. But turning left for three hours would not be very much fun for most people.