Overtaking lapped cars ISSUE. Ghosts or No Ghosts?

[JulesDennis]

IMO ghosting is a bad idea.
If people want to "sim" racing then they need to learn to negotiate traffic (either lapping others or getting lapped) and also they need to learn to respect other drivers -no matter the pace difference-.

 

[adstomko]

IMO ghosting is a bad idea.
If people want to "sim" racing then they need to learn to negotiate traffic (either lapping others or getting lapped) and also they need to learn to respect other drivers -no matter the pace difference-.

I agree.
I hope you understand my main point here that ghosting then un-ghosting in the middle of braking/a chicane is totally unfair and unacceptable. Having a system with uses both ghosting and un-ghosting in such circumstances is just stupid

 

[Woodybobs]

After rejoining the circuit and noticing the leader fly past, it would make sense for the leader to cut the chicane to avoid any infringement. I probably would've done that regardless of the system giving me a penalty for corner cutting. When an F1 driver is completely on his own and not fighting for position, he would just move out of the way. Also, on the video, he does kind of block me because he veers left onto my racing line as he approaches the chicane.
And heck, he can't make any gains in the race because the leader has just lapped him, meaning he only has one corner left and his race his done!

I didn't treat him any differently. Given that this was an FIA race, you wouldn't expect to encounter such instances and slow drivers.
I mean, 13 laps at Suzuka and you encounter a backmarker? All in all, I blame the (un)ghosting system. It's quite clearly an issue.

There are certain situations where it's accepted back markers can't get out of the way. Chicanes are a prime example. It happens all the time. Unfortunately it means a leading car is sometimes held up, but that's racing. I don't think he intentionally tries to block you. He's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. As you say, lapping people in such short races is not the norm. His experience of being lapped is probably limited too. I don't blame you for going for it so close to the end but taking risks increases the chances of a negative outcome. It didn't work out for you this time. Ghosting is a compromise to prevent people from wrecking the leaders. There are quite a few posts on this forum that show how people can be such bad losers. In those situations ghosting is the lesser evil, IMO. Sometimes you can drive through back markers, but that is not the intented outcome if the back marker is playing fair. To be fully sure of not hitting him you should have treated the situation like any other overtaking situation.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

Pd could do with adding visual cues for a few things (next to a drivers name above car)

• Lapped drivers (show a blue flag)
• Showing if people have penalties (and how much time, not just a quick show of gained penalty).

 

[novcze]

ghosting worked well in dailies, lapped cars were ghosted in advance, maybe is it different in FIA events?

 

[Revver00]

That was originally the case as of 1.13



And in 1.15 was changed to




I don't know what that distance or how it's determined but it's no longer permanent ghosting.

Re: ghosting lapped cars - it was working fine before the 1.15 change, I wonder why PD changed it? i

Re: the video - I was in that race, it was a very fast and competitive top S/S lobby, except for the lapped driver, who was clearly well out of his / her depth and only there due to (through no fault of their own) the DR boost bug/ glitch.

 

[ASH32]

ghosting worked well in dailies, lapped cars were ghosted in advance, maybe is it different in FIA events?

There is something unintended happening with this feature I think. In one daily I was following a car for a while (he actually had decent pace, better than some others in that race, he must have had tons of penalties or something) ready to lap him and his car was ghosting in and out in the distance. Luckily in my case he was a real gent and when I was near to him but not too near, he slowed in a sensible place and let me through. 👍

 

[adstomko]

There are certain situations where it's accepted back markers can't get out of the way. Chicanes are a prime example. It happens all the time. Unfortunately it means a leading car is sometimes held up, but that's racing. I don't think he intentionally tries to block you. He's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. As you say, lapping people in such short races is not the norm. His experience of being lapped is probably limited too. I don't blame you for going for it so close to the end but taking risks increases the chances of a negative outcome. It didn't work out for you this time. Ghosting is a compromise to prevent people from wrecking the leaders. There are quite a few posts on this forum that show how people can be such bad losers. In those situations ghosting is the lesser evil, IMO. Sometimes you can drive through back markers, but that is not the intented outcome if the back marker is playing fair. To be fully sure of not hitting him you should have treated the situation like any other overtaking situation.

In my opinion, your points here are valid. The whole discussion will go in circles. However, it is difficult to treat this like any other overtaking position when you are already in the braking zone as the car 'un-ghosts.' If the car was not a ghost before I started to brake, the situation may have ended differently. I assumed he was still a ghost. Why ghost then 'un-ghost' whilst a car is already in the braking zone? It doesn't matter how far you are from
The evidence is clear on the video. I'm already on the driver's bumper by the time I start to lift off the brake. It was unavoidable. This whole distance ratio nonsense should be abandoned. Why introduce a new ghosting method to confuse leaders and especially whilst the last ghosting method was perfectly fine?
It reminds me of modern football. A player is 'half-fouled' (e.g. shoulder barged to the ground) in his own half, it's a free kick. However, if it was in the opposition's penalty area, there's a large chance it's not a penalty.

Re: ghosting lapped cars - it was working fine before the 1.15 change, I wonder why PD changed it? i

Re: the video - I was in that race, it was a very fast and competitive top S/S lobby, except for the lapped driver, who was clearly well out of his / her depth and only there due to (through no fault of their own) the DR boost bug/ glitch.

Exactly! Why change the system?
P.S. well done on your result in the race

 

[garix]

Exactly! Why change the system?

I had also the honor to be in that race .
As far I remember in the post-race chat the lapped driver kind of appologized to adstomko cause he also thought he is ghosted . I would also expect lapped driver to be ghosted when close, cause thats how I understand "Cars over a lap behind will now be ghosted depending on the distance from the player's car". I faced it already some times and it worked out well (so far).
If it is not like this, PD should clear communicate and everyone will adapt (blue flags are welcome as well). If it is a bug, PD should sort it out.

 

[inri]

ghosting worked well in dailies, lapped cars were ghosted in advance, maybe is it different in FIA events?

yeah i haven't had any problems with it yet. seems like backmarkers turn invisible when you get within a second or so of them, this was at tsukuba though. it should just be like that on every track in every situation, i realise in endurance races it might be that even 2nd place ends up a lap behind the leader but for the dailies this is rarely the case

 

[Woodybobs]

The whole discussion will go in circles.

I fear that ship has sailed

In my opinion, your points here are valid.

As are yours. I empathise with your frustration. Hopefully PD can happen upon a solution that pleases everyone. We could be in for some trial and error over the coming updates.

 

[DigitalBaka]

My opinion is that the only time ghosting should come into play would be for people intentionally trying to take out other racers. Any other time it should not activate because people start using it as a crutch. Go back and watch the Racing Etiquette videos ("lame" as they may be) as I'm pretty certain they mention you shouldn't drive through a ghosted car. There are obvious consequences even without the videos to tell you so.

You should have to navigate around lapped traffic. There is no such thing as ghosting out here in the real world. F1, Indy, NASCAR, Blancpain, track day....everyone has to get around other cars on the track regardless of position. Even if they're slow and don't move over you are obligated to pass safely. If someone spins in front of you or is out of control and you get caught up, your day may be done. Again my opinion, but you should have no reasonable expectation that a car in front will just "poof" and no longer be an obstacle so you can compete for a win or second or eleventh. That's just not how it works.

I am all for implementing blue flags and penalties for not obliging them within a reasonable amount of time. Coming through a chicane is not a reasonable place to let faster traffic past but everywhere else could be. As for ghosting, I would engage it only for cases where someone is driving the wrong direction or obviously intending to cause chaos by stopping on the track or driving recklessly or obviously too slow for the sector. I would not use it for lapped traffic, accidents, off-track cars rejoining, etc. because those are all situations that real world racers would need to deal with. We don't have spotters for those kinds of things but if there's an accident or such a yellow area on the course map could take that place. Keep the option for more aggressive ghosting in lobbies but in an FIA race for sure or even all of Sport Mode I'd get rid of the ghosting at B+ levels.

 

[simsimsheree]

It's a GAME...

If we are going to ignore the actual sport we are emulating, and allow penalties to be served in the imaginary way of a slowdown with no expectation that it be served somewhere completely out of the way of other drivers (something no series does), then we should allow ghosting of lapped cars the minute they are within sight of the car lapping them. They should not be ghosted to cars around them on the same lap, only to the cars lapping them.

It is getting harder and harder to understand a damn thing PD are doing with penalties. No relation to the sport, no relation to anything practical for a game. More and more, it seems like they have a change for change's sake, and the worse it is for racing, the more likely it is to get picked! The more angst it generates, the better. I am starting to think the conversation at PD tends to go "How are those new tracks coming along? Still being done by one old man with a bad bladder? OK, let's make a change to the penalty system, keep them engaged... What did you say, what kind of change? Who cares? As long as it generates controversy, it keeps them engaged! What did you say, shouldn't it make the game better? (Mad laughing breaks out) You are fired!"!

IMO ghosting is a bad idea.
If people want to "sim" racing then they need to learn to negotiate traffic (either lapping others or getting lapped) and also they need to learn to respect other drivers -no matter the pace difference-.

This assumes the lapped car isn't lurking to take out the leaders. Respect starts with the lapped car.

If you want to 'sim', find a clean online lobby, some SNAIL, whatever. Expecting it in Sport Mode is to deny reality.

 

[Sander 001]

Yeah, trying to cherry pick some realistic features for an online video game is laughably optimistic.

People are often dirtbags and PD needs to do much, much more to deny these griefers. Not less.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

In my opinion, your points here are valid. The whole discussion will go in circles. However, it is difficult to treat this like any other overtaking position when you are already in the braking zone as the car 'un-ghosts.' If the car was not a ghost before I started to brake, the situation may have ended differently. I assumed he was still a ghost. Why ghost then 'un-ghost' whilst a car is already in the braking zone? It doesn't matter how far you are from
The evidence is clear on the video. I'm already on the driver's bumper by the time I start to lift off the brake. It was unavoidable. This whole distance ratio nonsense should be abandoned. Why introduce a new ghosting method to confuse leaders and especially whilst the last ghosting method was perfectly fine?

I think you need to look again at the video.

The car is clearly unghosted at the time of you reaching your braking point.
It remains unghosted the whole time.
You have completed braking, passed the first apex, and are on the throttle the first time you hit him.

I get it that you are disappointed in the end result.
I get it that the leader reached the car at an opportune time, whereas you didn't.

But I don't get this claim you are making that the car ghosted/unghosted in such a manner that you had no option but to hit him, and therefore it was all the games fault and that you are blameless.

 

[DriftMethod]

I'm with OP on this. When PD specifically notes that lapped drivers will be ghosted, that should happen. This benefits both cars by having a system in place that they can rely on. The issues are caused when both cars are expecting the lapped car to ghost, but for some unknown reason it doesn't. That's a disservice to both drivers.

What contributes to the problem is that the distance to the lapped car ghosting is not consistent. Sometimes they ghost a good distance ahead, while other times, you have to get quite close. Does the lapped car know if they are ghosted or not?

Is this a good system? Without a blue flag system which I have to believe would be much more difficult to implement fairly, ghosting is a good solution. But that's just my opinion and dependent on the system actually working.

 

[Sofia Speed]

I had a similar issue last week on a daily race.
Gr3 Brands Hatch
I was in second, right behind 1st with a 7seconds difference to P3.
P1starts to overtake a ghosted car, he poltergeisted him passing right thru the ghost car while he was braking to a turn.
I turned behind him and was passing te ghost car by his side (not thru him), I guess the driver of the ghost car didn’t count with that as he was not in last place and he swerve in my direction hitting me and taking me out of track!
I didn’t got any penalty but P3 almost caught me.


I believe that more important than ghosting lapped cars should be some sort of warning in their screens showing that they are faster drivers behind (just like the fuel line and warning)

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I'm with OP on this. When PD specifically notes that lapped drivers will be ghosted, that should happen. This benefits both cars by having a system in place that they can rely on. The issues are caused when both cars are expecting the lapped car to ghost, but for some unknown reason it doesn't. That's a disservice to both drivers.

What contributes to the problem is that the distance to the lapped car ghosting is not consistent. Sometimes they ghost a good distance ahead, while other times, you have to get quite close. Does the lapped car know if they are ghosted or not?

Is this a good system? Without a blue flag system which I have to believe would be much more difficult to implement fairly, ghosting is a good solution. But that's just my opinion and dependent on the system actually working.

Yes.
I think in this instance, from my interpretation of the rules, the system failed the OP.

It seems to be a blanket statement to me, since update 1.13, and I don't think any other rules come into play.
Sport Mode
(1.13) - Cars over a lap behind will now be ghosted and will not be subject to collisions.
(1.15) - Cars over a lap behind will now be ghosted depending on the distance from the player's car.

So I assume the same rule applies regardless of ratings, be it a rookie E/B driver or an experienced S/S driver.
And I assume the FIA events are the same as Daily Races.

And if this is the case, then I think the system isn't working as it should.
At least not in the evidence provided in this video.


Even the lead car passed an unghosted lapped car.
So perhaps the lapped car was initially ghosted because he lost control exiting 130R, but then unghosted from that incident just as the lead car approached, confusing the "lapped car ghost" system?
Or is it in fact that the system doesn't apply to S/S drivers and/or FIA events?

I don't know, and the video doesn't show enough of the circumstances to make the call.

 

[City01]

I think it is bugged since 1.15 update and I have similar experience in a daily race.

Before 1.15, I just treat the lapped car not exist and will not brake at all and dive into it, as it is supposed to be ghosted.

Few days before (after 1.15), the lapped car was not ghosted as expected and I am just lucky to keep the 1st position.

I think this needs to be fixed. I mean we need a clear indication if the car will be ghosted or not.

 

[Matty28]

I personally prefer ghosting just because I cannot stand the thought of being pushed off or blocked for several corners by some guy who can barely drive oblivious to his surroundings and then given a 10 second penalty as punishment for their horrendous driving. I think the further down the skill level the more this applies. The people you're passing are not like GTE AM drivers with a race license and mirrors they're like 5 year olds playing for the first time from chase cam. It's frankly embarrassing to the competition to have these people end races and farcical to be given penalties for that, so ghosting wins for me. Then you've got potential cheating and potential misplaced revenge or revenge that gets innocent parties caught up. Just no.

Regardless of that, the cars are suppose to ghost (fact) and occasionally they don't resulting in you crashing into them and getting a penalty. There is no way on earth that this is the fault of the driver for expecting the game to work as intended. That is a bug and needs to be fixed, no debate. It happened to me a couple of days ago - after lapping 3 cars which ghosted as normal, the 4th one didn't and we met on the apex of T1 Nurburgring. He got bumped forwards, I spun out and got a 10 second penalty. Thankfully I had a 30 second lead or something.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I personally prefer ghosting just because I cannot stand the thought of being pushed off or blocked for several corners by some guy who can barely drive oblivious to his surroundings and then given a 10 second penalty as punishment for their horrendous driving. I think the further down the skill level the more this applies. The people you're passing are not like GTE AM drivers with a race license and mirrors they're like 5 year olds playing for the first time from chase cam. It's frankly embarrassing to the competition to have these people end races and farcical to be given penalties for that, so ghosting wins for me. Then you've got potential cheating and potential misplaced revenge or revenge that gets innocent parties caught up. Just no.

Regardless of that, the cars are suppose to ghost (fact) and occasionally they don't resulting in you crashing into them and getting a penalty. There is no way on earth that this is the fault of the driver for expecting the game to work as intended. That is a bug and needs to be fixed, no debate. It happened to me a couple of days ago - after lapping 3 cars which ghosted as normal, the 4th one didn't and we met on the apex of T1 Nurburgring. He got bumped forwards, I spun out and got a 10 second penalty. Thankfully I had a 30 second lead or something.

We could discuss the failings of the system all day.

But accelerating unnecessarily and making contact with the back of a car that clearly isn't ghosted, is the fault of the driver. (fact)
You have to drive and react to the circumstances put before you, not to some alternative reality you feel should apply.


I've bumped the thread on the SONY forums by posting and "@"ing a developer.
There may or may not be a response.
Time will tell.

 

[City01]

We could discuss the failings of the system all day.

But accelerating unnecessarily and making contact with the back of a car that clearly isn't ghosted, is the fault of the driver. (fact)
You have to drive and react to the circumstances put before you, not to some alternative reality you feel should apply.

I agree with you before 1.13 update. But after 1.13, we were told and experienced that the lapped car will be ghosted and will not have collision.

If knowing the fact that car will be ghosted ( but somehow it is bugged now) and still break to avoid collision, you just lose time and give up the positions.

 

[ivann]

Seems fine for me.

 

[daan]

My opinion is that the only time ghosting should come into play would be for people intentionally trying to take out other racers. Any other time it should not activate because people start using it as a crutch. Go back and watch the Racing Etiquette videos ("lame" as they may be) as I'm pretty certain they mention you shouldn't drive through a ghosted car. There are obvious consequences even without the videos to tell you so.

You should have to navigate around lapped traffic. There is no such thing as ghosting out here in the real world. F1, Indy, NASCAR, Blancpain, track day....everyone has to get around other cars on the track regardless of position. Even if they're slow and don't move over you are obligated to pass safely. If someone spins in front of you or is out of control and you get caught up, your day may be done. Again my opinion, but you should have no reasonable expectation that a car in front will just "poof" and no longer be an obstacle so you can compete for a win or second or eleventh. That's just not how it works.

I am all for implementing blue flags and penalties for not obliging them within a reasonable amount of time. Coming through a chicane is not a reasonable place to let faster traffic past but everywhere else could be. As for ghosting, I would engage it only for cases where someone is driving the wrong direction or obviously intending to cause chaos by stopping on the track or driving recklessly or obviously too slow for the sector. I would not use it for lapped traffic, accidents, off-track cars rejoining, etc. because those are all situations that real world racers would need to deal with. We don't have spotters for those kinds of things but if there's an accident or such a yellow area on the course map could take that place. Keep the option for more aggressive ghosting in lobbies but in an FIA race for sure or even all of Sport Mode I'd get rid of the ghosting at B+ levels.

So much this.

I read the ghosting of cars from the 1.15 update as being so that as soon as you start to pass a car you are lapping, he ghosts so he cannot take you out. It no longer gives you a free pass to drive through him.

 

[ShiftingGears]

My opinion is that the only time ghosting should come into play would be for people intentionally trying to take out other racers. Any other time it should not activate because people start using it as a crutch. Go back and watch the Racing Etiquette videos ("lame" as they may be) as I'm pretty certain they mention you shouldn't drive through a ghosted car. There are obvious consequences even without the videos to tell you so.

I don't recall seeing anything in the etiquette video besides hearing "no contact" and "to be good you must not do things that are bad". And then being unironically shown numerous photos of our lord and saviour Ayrton Senna for some reason.

You should have to navigate around lapped traffic. There is no such thing as ghosting out here in the real world. F1, Indy, NASCAR, Blancpain, track day....everyone has to get around other cars on the track regardless of position. Even if they're slow and don't move over you are obligated to pass safely. If someone spins in front of you or is out of control and you get caught up, your day may be done. Again my opinion, but you should have no reasonable expectation that a car in front will just "poof" and no longer be an obstacle so you can compete for a win or second or eleventh. That's just not how it works.

I am all for implementing blue flags and penalties for not obliging them within a reasonable amount of time. Coming through a chicane is not a reasonable place to let faster traffic past but everywhere else could be. As for ghosting, I would engage it only for cases where someone is driving the wrong direction or obviously intending to cause chaos by stopping on the track or driving recklessly or obviously too slow for the sector. I would not use it for lapped traffic, accidents, off-track cars rejoining, etc. because those are all situations that real world racers would need to deal with. We don't have spotters for those kinds of things but if there's an accident or such a yellow area on the course map could take that place. Keep the option for more aggressive ghosting in lobbies but in an FIA race for sure or even all of Sport Mode I'd get rid of the ghosting at B+ levels.

Real life racing series also have a higher standard of driving, and severe punishment for not getting out of the way of, or not being aware of lapped traffic. I would be fine with ghosting being off, but I really think penalties for contact with lapped traffic is unwarranted.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Seems fine for me.

Well now I'm really confused.

Heading towards Degner it seems the car about to get lapped is "ghosted".
But it unghosts as the lead car gets closer, and then he drives straight through it.

Is this a replay glitch or is this how it actually happens?

Because that changes everything.

 

[GTWelsh]

Poor driving, the guy let 1st place through nicely but due to position on track he would of had to stop completely to let you through. And maybe he should of but he didn't due to where it was, I can see why he took the corner, you're just a victim of circumstance. He should of gone wide after the chicane to let you through but by that point there is no real point. You can also see he started to spin out so who knows what he wanted to do, catching the spin became priority number 1, which is understandable.

In my opinion, learn to just accept the loss. It happens. I'm sure the back marker didn't appreciate the hits either.

I read the ghosting of cars from the 1.15 update as being so that as soon as you start to pass a car you are lapping, he ghosts so he cannot take you out. It no longer gives you a free pass to drive through him.

So we think ghosting is turned on for lapped cars, but not on permanent, but like the lobby had the setting on but only for lapped cars. I actually love it if that's what it is.

Can't drive through them but as soon as they try and divebomb you into the next corner, they ghost as if the race had ghosting on, even if the current race had ghosting off (assuming).

 

[ivann]

Is this a replay glitch or is this how it actually happens?

Its captured gameplay, so its how it actually happened.

 

[Lebowski]

Here's my view, which will probably be controversial. The fault lies 100% with the person being lapped.

Why? Don't rely on your car ghosting. The game gives you all the information you need to avoid this. First it tells you your position so if you're 15th out of 15 and a car is behind you, you're being lapped so it's the decent and responsible thing to do to not hinder other people's race.
If you're 14th or higher out of 15 then it also tells you the time to the nearest competitor behind you so for example if 15th is 3.2 seconds behind you but theres a car right on your bumper then obviously this is not the car in 15th! It then gives you a track map with arrows representing cars on it, proximity markers, mirrors (depending on user view) and of course the radar. There is no excuse for not being observant.
A responsible racer pays attention to his surroundings in all directions.
I've been lapped a couple of times and even though the car ghosted I will always move over just to not spook out the faster driver.

 

[JulesDennis]

Here's my view, which will probably be controversial. The fault lies 100% with the person being lapped.

Not true (general speaking).
What lapped cars should do is to keep a racing line in order for the faster car to pass them in a safe manner (rl or sim racing).
Many times it helps if they give a lot of room but that cannot happen all the time.
The main thing is that a lapped car should:
-need to use clear body language (driving a predictable line -no nesseseraly off the racing line-,no sudden moves or braking)
-pick a side and then religiously stay there until the car has passed (even try slowing a little to expedite the pass)
-be aware there could be any number of lapping cars
The lapping cars:
-be aware that the car getting lapping may have absolutely no knowledge of their presence (especially in case of 2 or more cars lapping another)
-it is their responsibility to make a clean pass as in any other case.