PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[watto79]

Based on a few races it seems like this isn’t the 1.52 system, but a hybrid of 1.53 and 1.54. Side contact penalties are there, and seem a bit more aggressive than 1.52, but front/rear contact seems to either be missing or reduced for the instigator. Have seen tons of penalties being dished out for side contact while also seeing blatant punts go unpunished.

Either way, it’s better than nothing and I’m glad to see some of these dirty drivers getting near-insta demoted back to where they belong.

This is my observation too. What we have now is far from perfect, but is better than the previous two versions we've had (the penalties for everyone and penalties for no one systems). It's a slightly sorry state of affairs but the system is, for the most part, consistent and predictable. There will also be circumstances when it's neither of those things.

I do believe that consistently dirty drivers will no longer be in SR99 lobbies, and that's a good thing.

 

[GTP_TO Blue]

Is this the one where you tap someone and they decide to drive off the track giving you a penalty?

Yup, there was one Bulgarian gamer doing it in Race B earlier. They caught a few out with the move, including me! I got a 1 second penalty for forcing a car off track and a red S at the end.

The system is still confused with multi car collisions. Giving out penalties to the innocent party, whilst the guilty get away with it.

This is all in a C & B DR room.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Based on a few races it seems like this isn’t the 1.52 system, but a hybrid of 1.53 and 1.54. Side contact penalties are there, and seem a bit more aggressive than 1.52, but front/rear contact seems to either be missing or reduced for the instigator. Have seen tons of penalties being dished out for side contact while also seeing blatant punts go unpunished.

Either way, it’s better than nothing and I’m glad to see some of these dirty drivers getting near-insta demoted back to where they belong.

Apart from the game demoting me to SR.B, I'm still the only driver not in SR.S lol. There was no one below SR.S to match me with, while the behavior on the track is just as bad. Maybe it's different now in race B, less SR to spend.

 

[Tea_Leaves]

Literally, SR 99 races were beginning to look like E lobbies.

The irony is the penalty system at SR E works well and as if it were created by a different development team. The game understands what's right and wrong like ghosting divebombers in a braking zone.

I understand people wouldn't call it "racing" by straight up ghosting cars if it were to be used in high SRs but given that making contact with divebombers and out of control cars on their way off the track and innocent given the penalty still isn't addressed, I'd take it over being assigned blame for someone else's reckless driving.

 

[realpowaful]

The title of this thread is hilarious as I imagine a 10 year old saying this line with the squeeker voice

I read it same way damn near

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Matchmaking is still the same, losing SR still gets rewarded.

As DR.B SR.A I became room filler for a C/S mostly D/S room. The advantage of racing DR.D drivers is that they get ghosted a lot sooner when they lose control. I won the race with fastest lap (of only 1:46.04) and clean race bonus, +16 SR to 88 SR. Only one red rating in that room although despite the ghosting it was still a mess in lap 1. I got bumped a bunch of times including run off at the corkscrew (other car got a penalty finally) still no SR Downs for bumping and you keep the CRB.

Next racing C/S, mostly D/S again now as B/S (only 80-89 range SR I guess in a room with 90-99 SR DR.C and DR.D drivers) Fast B/S on pole (Brazil), he will win.

+5 SR with one BS penalty. (Car turned in on me at the apex and went off, the usual) so still -10 SR per time penalty. (Total 16 SR, 1 lost for missing the sector, 10 lost for the penalty) 93 SR now so matchmaking should be back to normal next race.

 

[BaareCZ]

No CRB, got bumped at least a dozen times and got a 0.5 sec avoidance penalty (track limits)

Oh 🤬. Looks like I've missed out big time on completing the Consecutive Clean Race Challenge.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Oh 🤬. Looks like I've missed out big time on completing the Consecutive Clean Race Challenge.

It's still easy to get as long as you don't avoid people SR Down is still missing, penalties are still mostly absent, CRB stays if you get bumped off the track, just don't go outside track limits to avoid someone....

Here's my experience with the penalty system today. First my last race (back in SR.S) condensed to show all the missing penalties. (And all blue S of course) and after the couple gifs I posted earlier that briefly send me down to SR.B. High SR.S is the dirtiest place to race, but it's still early after the change.

 

[Lgirasol]

Well it’s a little bit better than last week but still a lot of frustration too. It seems they turned the side-bump penalty up to 11 but still ignored bumping from behind.

No wait, not true, I got a one second penalty when someone bumped me from behind in the corkscrew and sent me off track. This seems like the easiest one to fix—it’s like traffic, the guy behind is nearly always wrong. It’s up to the follower to adjust their braking and line to avoid contact. And if the driver in front is braking within the flashing indicator it’s always the fault of the follower. Four off-track punts this morning and the only penalty was on me. Figure. It. Out, PD!

Also impossible for me to get through the first two turns at Laguna Seca without incurring a penalty. And I’ve been tiptoeing around, giving lotsa racing room, watching my radar, giving up positions to avoid contact, but it still thinks I’m the baddie.

It's still easy to get as long as you don't avoid people SR Down is still missing, penalties are still mostly absent, CRB stays if you get bumped off the track, just don't go outside track limits to avoid someone....

Here's my experience with the penalty system today. First my last race (back in SR.S) condensed to show all the missing penalties. (And all blue S of course) and after the couple gifs I posted earlier that briefly send me down to SR.B. High SR.S is the dirtiest place to race, but it's still early after the change.

Oh, hey there’s me getting passed! (I’m AyrtonSebulba now-can’t believe my favorite fictional and RL drivers were available to mash up) I got one second penalty in that first turn. You’re right, there was lotsa dirty in these rooms today.

 

[tps_b86_]

Check out this bit of awesome penalty action, I got as 0.5 penalty and served it while out the way of others, player behind punted me off and I got a 7 second penalty!

I was loving the new system until then :/

 

[Voodoovaj]

Check out this bit of awesome penalty action, I got as 0.5 penalty and served it while out the way of others, player behind punted me off and I got a 7 second penalty!

I was loving the new system until then :/

They aren't getting it. They have apparently committed to an AI driven system that isn't relying on a solid foundation of HARD RULES.

Getting hit from behind should result in a penalty to the person that hit you. It's a universal rule that the person behind is responsible for avoiding contact. Coming out of serving a penalty is NOT brake checking.

Dump the "AI" and institute rules.

 

[barak181]

They aren't getting it. They have apparently committed to an AI driven system that isn't relying on a solid foundation of HARD RULES.

Getting hit from behind should result in a penalty to the person that hit you. It's a universal rule that the person behind is responsible for avoiding contact. Coming out of serving a penalty is NOT brake checking.

Dumb the "AI" and institute rules.

That's the thing that's getting me. It seems that whoever is designing this system is obsessed with things like brake checking when punting and dive-bombing are the probably the two biggest problems in Sport mode.

 

[astrarobotica]

They aren't getting it. They have apparently committed to an AI driven system that isn't relying on a solid foundation of HARD RULES.

Getting hit from behind should result in a penalty to the person that hit you. It's a universal rule that the person behind is responsible for avoiding contact. Coming out of serving a penalty is NOT brake checking.

Dumb the "AI" and institute rules.

I don't understand what you mean by AI. Are you suggesting they're using a machine learning method to apply penalties? Unless I just haven't heard otherwise, I really don't think that's the case. It seems like they just ****ed up the penalty system a couple months ago and haven't been able to reverse it in the versions that have come out since then. I know it's easy for us to say just fix it, but none of us know how complicated the code for the penalty system is, and considering that they've been iterating on it for over two years, undoing one specific thing without affecting something else is probably quite difficult.

Here's a theory; once they realized they ****ed up the penalty system with the Laguna Seca update, they intentionally turned off contact penalties (although not being completely forthright about it) for the better part of a month. They then spent the next few weeks trying to debug the system, came up with what they thought could be a remedy and said let's see if this works, and uploaded it last night.

Again, it's easy for us to simplify the problem from an outside perspective. But we just don't know how complicated it actually is. We could even say, just scrap the system and build a new one, but we don't know how long that would take, how difficult it would be to insert into the game, or whether they would be willing to commit the resources to doing so. If they're already in development of the next title, GT Sport probably just has a skeleton crew continuing to support it. We don't even know what sort of play testing resources they have allocated for these types of patches.

 

[Mac117]

I don't understand what you mean by AI. Are you suggesting they're using a machine learning method to apply penalties? Unless I just haven't heard otherwise, I really don't think that's the case. It seems like they just ****ed up the penalty system a couple months ago and haven't been able to reverse it in the versions that have come out since then. I know it's easy for us to say just fix it, but none of us know how complicated the code for the penalty system is, and considering that they've been iterating on it for over two years, undoing one specific thing without affecting something else is probably quite difficult.

Here's a theory; once they realized they ****ed up the penalty system with the Laguna Seca update, they intentionally turned off contact penalties (although not being completely forthright about it) for the better part of a month. They then spent the next few weeks trying to debug the system, came up with what they thought could be a remedy and said let's see if this works, and uploaded it last night.

Again, it's easy for us to simplify the problem from an outside perspective. But we just don't know how complicated it actually is. We could even say, just scrap the system and build a new one, but we don't know how long that would take, how difficult it would be to insert into the game, or whether they would be willing to commit the resources to doing so. If they're already in development of the next title, GT Sport probably just has a skeleton crew continuing to support it. We don't even know what sort of play testing resources they have allocated for these types of patches.

While I agree that resources now may be directed somewhere else, fixing dive bombing and "excessive" punting should be quite straight forward. With those 2 fixed, you take out a big % of the issues during races. Then just a matter of slowly fixing the rest.

 

[CBH]

fixing dive bombing and "excessive" punting should be quite straight forward. With those 2 fixed

How is PD going to be fix dive bombing and "excessive" punting ?.

 

[barak181]

Yes, the penalty system is still a POS but I did see several red SRs at the end of my latest Race C. Interestingly, I also saw a SR of E listed next to most of the rage quitters - it was a very, very aggressive and sloppy race. Is SR reset a thing?

 

[astrarobotica]

While I agree that resources now may be directed somewhere else, fixing dive bombing and "excessive" punting should be quite straight forward. With those 2 fixed, you take out a big % of the issues during races. Then just a matter of slowly fixing the rest.

But we can't make the assumption it should be straightforward. We don't know anything about how the penalty system is coded. Again, they've been iterating on it for over two years. They could alter the code they think may be causing the bug and it could break something else. The less resources allocated, the longer it takes to find the source of the issue, the longer it takes to debug/playtest any potential fix to make sure everything else still works as intended. Clearly they're trying to work on it, and it's been two months. If it was straightforward, it would have been fixed by now.

 

[vvise]

People in here acting like GT:Sport is running on super computers for servers. This game is averaging 30k active sport mode players per day. There's dozens, maybe hundreds of races running in parallel all the time.

Solutions like, just track all the inputs, speed, direction, location, intended speed in that area, for all drivers in every race and with every contact do a full review 10 seconds into the past for all cars involved, then review them against the complicated and difficult to interpret (even for stewards) rules of racing. and bam, it's easy to see that it was not a brake check.

Are you crazy? The servers are barely keeping up with 1 lagging driver trying to make sure you aren't teleported off the track by the collision system. Just loading the lobby causes it to crash often enough.

There's a reason that the current system is VERY basic. Car A contact with Car B -> Car B loses position = Car A gets penalty is cheap to process and generally pretty good. Running servers costs money, all the updates have been free.

I'm sure the developers aren't idiots, they just don't get much to work with.

"Just fix dive bombing and punting" lol okay bud.

 

[Mac117]

How is PD going to be fix dive bombing and "excessive" punting ?.

Dive bombing seems to be the easiest to me, PD already has an AI that runs the cars around the circuit so a few references there already for breaking points. To that they can collect breaking point data from, let's say,10% of fastest laps. With that creating a range of what is a "driving mistake" (small penalty) and what is "dive bombing" (big penalty) should not be difficult. Not breaking at all should get you a very big penalty.

Then the "excessive punting" penalties could be created with the base of the above.

But we can't make the assumption it should be straightforward. We don't know anything about how the penalty system is coded. Again, they've been iterating on it for over two years. They could alter the code they think may be causing the bug and it could break something else. The less resources allocated, the longer it takes to find the source of the issue, the longer it takes to debug/playtest any potential fix to make sure everything else still works as intended. Clearly they're trying to work on it, and it's been two months. If it was straightforward, it would have been fixed by now.

Of course, if the coding is messy at this point then yes, it's a mess and probably will not get properly fixed.

The thing is, as said in this forum, that other games (some much smaller games than GTS) do manage to get a penalty system that users consider to be ok. So it's not an impossible task and, as said, "dive bombing" and "excessive punting" are very quantifiable and thus easier to implement than "wrong driving line" or "leave the track to avoid accident".

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Dive bombing seems to be the easiest to me, PD already has an AI that runs the cars around the circuit so a few references there already for breaking points. To that they can collect breaking point data from, let's say,10% of fastest laps. With that creating a range of what is a "driving mistake" (small penalty) and what is "dive bombing" (big penalty) should not be difficult. Not breaking at all should get you a very big penalty.

Then the "excessive punting" penalties could be created with the base of the above.

Yep and it already worked in SR.E since dive bombs get ghosted there and pass through you without harm!

People in here acting like GT:Sport is running on super computers for servers. This game is averaging 30k active sport mode players per day. There's dozens, maybe hundreds of races running in parallel all the time.

Solutions like, just track all the inputs, speed, direction, location, intended speed in that area, for all drivers in every race and with every contact do a full review 10 seconds into the past for all cars involved, then review them against the complicated and difficult to interpret (even for stewards) rules of racing. and bam, it's easy to see that it was not a brake check.

Are you crazy? The servers are barely keeping up with 1 lagging driver trying to make sure you aren't teleported off the track by the collision system. Just loading the lobby causes it to crash often enough.

There's a reason that the current system is VERY basic. Car A contact with Car B -> Car B loses position = Car A gets penalty is cheap to process and generally pretty good. Running servers costs money, all the updates have been free.

I'm sure the developers aren't idiots, they just don't get much to work with.

"Just fix dive bombing and punting" lol okay bud.

The server only acts as a router and collects results, there is no logic on the server, everything is done on the clients. The clients know how fast you were going and the rules are not that difficult for clear cut cases like a dive bomb from 0.5 sec back. Does this take rocket science to detect?

Don't blink or you might miss the missile coming by.

Yes, the penalty system is still a POS but I did see several red SRs at the end of my latest Race C. Interestingly, I also saw a SR of E listed next to most of the rage quitters - it was a very, very aggressive and sloppy race. Is SR reset a thing?

It has always been listed as E for quitters, doesn't mean anything.

 

[astrarobotica]

Of course, if the coding is messy at this point then yes, it's a mess and probably will not get properly fixed.

The thing is, as said in this forum, that other games (some much smaller games than GTS) do manage to get a penalty system that users consider to be ok. So it's not an impossible task and, as said, "dive bombing" and "excessive punting" are very quantifiable and thus easier to implement than "wrong driving line" or "leave the track to avoid accident".

There's no doubt that getting a penalty when someone rams you is a bug. And it doesn't matter what we think should be easy if we don't consider the logistics of it. That scenario you described where they reference AI braking points could take months to implement and test. And if most of their resources are focused on a new benchmark next-gen game, which they probably are, I doubt they would put that much focus into the penalty system of a game that's been out for over two years.

Even aside from that, what if someone rams you, causing your car to ram the person ahead of you, sending them into the gravel? It's obvious who's at fault, but that doesn't mean it's easy to implement and test. The more complex the system gets, the more scenarios it tries to account for in order to correctly place blame, the more likely we are to get the sort of bugs we're currently experiencing.

 

[barak181]

Apparently, there is some sort of penalty for punting.

My last Race B, a guy cuts to my inside on the final turn and we make contact. I get a one second penalty, he gets none. I dunno, looking back maybe that's right. Maybe I should've gone defensive or given him more space, I dunno. But at the time, I was not happy.

Now, in the interest of academic research, I decided to see if there was any sort of penalty for punting in the new system. I say this to make it perfectly clear that it wasn't because I was angry or looking for revenge or anything like that. Like our good friend @Sven Jurgens, I'm just trying to find the limits of the new system. So, in the course of my research, I punt him going into T1. Granted, it wasn't a great punt. I don't have much practice. It didn't actually send him into a barrier or knock in off the racing line too much, let alone send him into the shadow realm, but it was something. I got a 2 sec penalty.

So, there's that.

 

[CBH]

Dive bombing seems to be the easiest to me, PD already has an AI that runs the cars around the circuit so a few references there already for breaking points. To that they can collect breaking point data from, let's say,10% of fastest laps. With that creating a range of what is a "driving mistake" (small penalty) and what is "dive bombing" (big penalty) should not be difficult. Not breaking at all should get you a very big penalty.

Then the "excessive punting" penalties could be created with the base of the above.

That is no fix to the problem you have mentioned, because dive bombing you don't need braking points ?.

 

[barak181]

SR may be starting to sort itself out. After my first couple Race B's of the night where I got, shall we say a little "chippy," my SR dropped to A/77. My next lobby was full of SR.A. Now, I wasn't SR.A two days ago but from what I hear, those lobbies didn't happen very often. By the end of my next race, several people had dropped to SR.B, including the short-tempered Brazilian who didn't like the fact that I took the inside line on the hairpin when he served his penalty smack-dab in the middle of the track preceding it.

I did get a CRB and my SR back up to 83, in case anyone is curious.

 

[Granadier]

Hmm, they might have some more work to do. See if you can spot the difference between these clips (VW is myself)

Penalty:


No Penalty:

 

[bduddy]

Check out this bit of awesome penalty action, I got as 0.5 penalty and served it while out the way of others, player behind punted me off and I got a 7 second penalty!

I was loving the new system until then :/

You weren't out of the way of anyone, you served your penalty right on the line. I'm not saying you were 100% at fault but if you actually did get out of the way and pulled offline like you're supposed to that wouldn't have happened.

 

[jagenigma]

How is PD going to be fix dive bombing and "excessive" punting ?.

Speed detection systems ought to sort that out. PD has to know how fast or slow a corner should be, if it detects a faster than normal speed at least 15 mph faster. It should reset the divebomber on a clear part of the track 5 seconds before that corner.

 

[Granadier]

They already have that functionality they just turn it off in higher tier lobbies. Low lobbies dive bombers will ghost before impact.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Yesterday I passed through a car ghosting as he came back on the track right in front of me and another car. There was a loud audible crash sound and a clear change in speed, but no penalty.

 

[vvise]

The server only acts as a router and collects results, there is no logic on the server, everything is done on the clients. The clients know how fast you were going and the rules are not that difficult for clear cut cases like a dive bomb from 0.5 sec back. Does this take rocket science to detect?

Of course the penalty system is resolved server side. In the case of lag which client do you trust, the answer is you can't trust either. Everyone's race is a little different, the server gives you intermittent locations and inputs of other cars and your client tried to extrapolate where it thinks other cars are. That's why sometimes in a replay things are slightly different than what you experienced in race.

As for your clip, I think you underestimate how much rational thought your brain has to go through to conclude what happened in that clip.

Assuming the server only has variables when contact occurs, driver position changes, and if a car is on track or off track. More specifically if it isn't tracking braking zones. I can see why it would come to the conclusion you caused the issue. Notice you get the penalty exactly when you pass the black car.

You hit the silver car. Then the silver car collided with the black car. Then you passed both cars.
If in another case you punted the silver car causing it to go into the black car and both went off track, the server in theory could receive identical data.

How do you rationalize intent? Track knowledge, relative speeds, extrapolating and predicting where each car is going. That's not easy to code in a low resource environment. I obviously don't know that this is what's happening. No one but the devs know. But it could be.