PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!
- Thread starter Gareth davies
- 6,543 comments
- 447,321 views
I did a couple of Round B day races, and found the penalty system quite fair, sure pretty much everyone was driving pretty clean, but the few penalties that I saw awarded seemed valid. I was nudged from behind lightly, no penalty for me or the guy who nudged me, because neither of us went off the track, but then later someone else nudged me, I went off track, he did't and he got 2 seconds, that seems fair. I saw penalties for deep corner cutting, but no penalties for light corner cutting or missing the turn completely and running into sand traps, also seeming fair..
On a slightly off topic, how do I see my actual points for driver rating, not just the letter of my rating?
On a slightly off topic, how do I see my actual points for driver rating, not just the letter of my rating?
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- 2,357
- UK
- TPC_Watto
- 724
- Germany
- GTRP_Krypto_
To those who say its complicated to code the penalty system and the developers are for sure very smart people.
In several versions several penaltys DID work. Looking to ghosting in low DR lobbys shows that the system CAN detect a losing control car or divebombing or ramming from behind.
The programmers are very smart persons for sure, but its all about the decisions made in management or department leaders. The philosophy is the problem. For example, the decision to make different harsh penaltys for different DR drivers/lobbys is just wrong. It's just a stupid decision. Or making a 75kDR cap is so unfair in top grids and causes the to less point difference-problem in the first three splits which decides who goes to the live events. Again, its a stupid decision.
I could continue. They reacted after two years to fuel burning in A+ Lobby FIA qualifyings. Or, getting rid of the penalty in last lap in front of the finish line with braking- how long did it take to solve it with penalty zones? Guess, what I'm going to say about now. Or the desperate try to make the FIA races more thrilling with this crazy tyre wear and different tyre types mandatory. Don't they see people can't handle this and the confusions from this conditions throughout the grid causes only mess?
They are surely high qualified persons as individuals, but the decisions are mostly stupid. They corrupt a could-be-a-perfect-game with this.
In several versions several penaltys DID work. Looking to ghosting in low DR lobbys shows that the system CAN detect a losing control car or divebombing or ramming from behind.
The programmers are very smart persons for sure, but its all about the decisions made in management or department leaders. The philosophy is the problem. For example, the decision to make different harsh penaltys for different DR drivers/lobbys is just wrong. It's just a stupid decision. Or making a 75kDR cap is so unfair in top grids and causes the to less point difference-problem in the first three splits which decides who goes to the live events. Again, its a stupid decision.
I could continue. They reacted after two years to fuel burning in A+ Lobby FIA qualifyings. Or, getting rid of the penalty in last lap in front of the finish line with braking- how long did it take to solve it with penalty zones? Guess, what I'm going to say about now. Or the desperate try to make the FIA races more thrilling with this crazy tyre wear and different tyre types mandatory. Don't they see people can't handle this and the confusions from this conditions throughout the grid causes only mess?
They are surely high qualified persons as individuals, but the decisions are mostly stupid. They corrupt a could-be-a-perfect-game with this.
- 2,209
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
- 187
- Berlin
- AngryKowski
I think the new penalty system is the best so far. Sure it isn't perfect, but it is impossible to be perfect. I like how you get only 1 sec or 2 sec penalty for punting somebody off the track instead of the same 5 sec every time no matter how bad the punt was. 5 sec is not reasonable in clean lobbies, where a punt is mostly a mistake
- 4,548
- Australia
Classic PD, now the penalty system hardly ever hands out penalties for dirty driving, and when it does, they get it wrong.
- 563
- France
- ElGringoFuerte
VolkswagenX
(Banned)
- 1,532
- Netherlands
A good strategy is to just dive bomb the first corner in race B. You gain positions and the other driver gets a penalty...
- 2,209
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
I still don't see how we can infer those people are smart. It seems unlikely to me that the developers are producing an awesome penalty system which is being rejected by management. It's not THAT hard for someone (a manager) to read the rules of motorsport, look at some recordings of the penalty system in action, and see if it's correctly implementing the rules or not. It's massively easier to verify the correct operation of a penalty system than it is to code it.As I understand it, Krypton is saying the people who write the code are smart, the people who decide what gets used...not so smart
However, the blame for failure should always be with management, in that they recruit the people who write the code, so either way, it's the fault of management.
- 417
- North Bohemia
I'm really starting to think that they don't do any testing whatsoever. It would literally take 2 people and 1 lap on any track to test if it works as intended or not. If these really are some manager's decisions, then he/she is a moron.
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- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
The penalty system used to be all client side, since pre Saint Croix you had cars finishing the race with a flashing penalty sign, who then turned out never to have received a penalty on their client (no red dot or anything)
Yet perhaps you are correct and when PD radically changed the penalty system (and you started to see how much actual penalty time each car has), they moved it server side. That would explain a lot of the stupidity of the system and the disparity between a car doing that in my clip ghosting in SR.E, while the server doesn't detect he's way over the speed.
If that's true, then that's really beyond stupid. All it needs is the clients exchanging information, not a server without any knowledge of the track or actual status of the cars / steering input trying to figure out what happened based on simple vector data exchange. It does explain how you can get a "forced another car off track" penalty when one car disconnects after slight contact. The server lists you as finishing last when you disconnect, thus position loss for one car, other car caused an accident...
- 724
- Germany
- GTRP_Krypto_
You're right, its not obvious in first look what I tried to say. I was pointing to some posts which where saying like: it must be very complicated, because even PD with his manpower with smart people can't solve it.
As I understand it, Krypton is saying the people who write the code are smart, the people who decide what gets used...not so smart
Exactly, thx
I don't think its the programming recources/ skills/ technical challenges mainly. The problem is located more in the decision finding process at PD.
And I have an idea where.
The employees are praying to Kaz because he is a legend and has so many visions. An article of a reporter who was at PD (which I linked recently somewhere here) confirms that fully.
I would be surprised if there was a culture of free debating and questioning theirselfes.
Instead, I'd expect a culture of competition, trying several departments to beat each other with the best and greatest and most complicated ideas, trying to get a 110% soulution instead of keeping it simple with only 70% performance but effective. Because the 110% turns into 110% in wrong direction mostly. This is usually the outcome of companys with one legendary boss surounded by yes-sayers around him. And thats what I suspect about PD.
- 3,547
- Theresa, Wisconsin
So only 1 or 2 second penalty is fair for the aggressor when he punts someone? What about the victim of the punt, they can lose at least 10-15 seconds Even if the punt was accidental they should come on track behind the victim.
No very realistic. We want close to real life experience, and in realife it can take any amount of time to get back on the track, but the person in fault will still only get a fixed penatly of a few seconds, correct me if I am wrong.
- 2,003
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
As an addition to the ongoing discussion about who's responsible, here's something @Famine posted in another thread recently.
When we spoke to the FIA at Madrid the representative actually said they don't want a prescribed rule set with pre-set penalties for pre-set offences - because that's not how it works in motorsport either. The goal was a penalty framework or matrix, within which the system could make judgements to increase or decrease penalties where appropriate. ...
I'd never heard that before and I immediately started to wonder what role the FIA could possibly play ...
and I'd actually kind of understand PD sticking to the current game design and that mess of code if the FIA badge was tied to it.
Whatever it is then ... we're not better off anyway.
Remember : Pain's an old friend
!
When we spoke to the FIA at Madrid the representative actually said they don't want a prescribed rule set with pre-set penalties for pre-set offences - because that's not how it works in motorsport either. The goal was a penalty framework or matrix, within which the system could make judgements to increase or decrease penalties where appropriate. ...
I'd never heard that before and I immediately started to wonder what role the FIA could possibly play ...
and I'd actually kind of understand PD sticking to the current game design and that mess of code if the FIA badge was tied to it.
Whatever it is then ... we're not better off anyway.
Remember : Pain's an old friend
!
- 3,816
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
They have mentioned several times in various articles that the system is AI based. That's not to say that it uses machine learning, that is a form of AI, but definitely not the case here. That might be an interesting approach to it. To have a machine learning system that can pass judgement based on repeated behavior, but unfortunately, it doesn't do that.
What appears to happen is there is a "no harm, no foul" approach, which also means the opposite is true. So, you end up with getting hit from behind, which naturally slows the car behind you, which is a "harm" to that car, ergo, YOU are to blame. Or, if you get dive bombed, but you are not "impeded" so to speak because you have not been punted off track, ergo, no foul.
What I keep saying is that the system needs to be based on the damage system, with penalty time derived from impact force. A system that is TRULY no harm, no foul. We've stated many times that blame can be derived from the car's orientation on track.
If they want to build AI on top of that to determine modifiers to the penalty time, then fine. It is, as @barak181 stated, as if they have become "enamoured" with certain ideas rather than building a system of rules that removed judgement.
What a handful of people at the FIA want and what tens of thousands of actual players want, seems to be different.
- 433
- Canada
I haven't played the new penalty system yet, but from the hearsay and footage I've see so far I can see there are still lot's of undeserved penalties being dished out.
I have a feeling I will miss the previous system that had no time penalties. IMO getting a penalty I don't deserve just ruins my gaming experience, why should I play a game that frustrates and angers me? I personally did not find the racing any dirtier without penalties, drivers were still dirty in ways that wouldn't have gotten them a penalty in previous versions and drivers still made mistakes. I had several races where I was defending someone for several laps and even though they could have, they did not just fire me off the track to get by me.
It honestly doesn't make a lick of difference to me if the guy who punts me into the sand gets a 2 second penalty or not while I lose 15 seconds and go to the back of the grid.
For all I care PD can get rid of time penalties and just have an SR system. They obviously cannot get rid of these stupid, undeserved penalties. At least with an SR system in place, drivers who go around smashing people like this was GTA will be in low SR lobbies. Drivers who can maintain SR S should be fairly clean and respectful drivers, giving back positions and sorting things out themselves. And the drivers with less skill who make their fair share of mistakes with their braking or are overly aggressive will find themselves somewhere in between.
I think something that isn't talked about enough when it come to the penalty system is GTS collision physics. When it comes to collisions it's like all of a sudden our cars are transported onto an ice surface, or even some other more slippery surface. A relatively low speed rear end collision sends the lead car flying far too much, a slight side contact when going side by side through a corner will send the outside car off way too much. Things would be a lot cleaner and bearable if the cars had more stability/retention when coming into contact. And as someone mentioned earlier, PD apparently has this bizarre fixation on brake checking. I don't think in my two+ years I've played this game have ever been properly brake checked. I have, however, on a nearly race to race basis been hit by and have hit people going into corners too aggressively or carelessly.
I have a feeling I will miss the previous system that had no time penalties. IMO getting a penalty I don't deserve just ruins my gaming experience, why should I play a game that frustrates and angers me? I personally did not find the racing any dirtier without penalties, drivers were still dirty in ways that wouldn't have gotten them a penalty in previous versions and drivers still made mistakes. I had several races where I was defending someone for several laps and even though they could have, they did not just fire me off the track to get by me.
It honestly doesn't make a lick of difference to me if the guy who punts me into the sand gets a 2 second penalty or not while I lose 15 seconds and go to the back of the grid.
For all I care PD can get rid of time penalties and just have an SR system. They obviously cannot get rid of these stupid, undeserved penalties. At least with an SR system in place, drivers who go around smashing people like this was GTA will be in low SR lobbies. Drivers who can maintain SR S should be fairly clean and respectful drivers, giving back positions and sorting things out themselves. And the drivers with less skill who make their fair share of mistakes with their braking or are overly aggressive will find themselves somewhere in between.
I think something that isn't talked about enough when it come to the penalty system is GTS collision physics. When it comes to collisions it's like all of a sudden our cars are transported onto an ice surface, or even some other more slippery surface. A relatively low speed rear end collision sends the lead car flying far too much, a slight side contact when going side by side through a corner will send the outside car off way too much. Things would be a lot cleaner and bearable if the cars had more stability/retention when coming into contact. And as someone mentioned earlier, PD apparently has this bizarre fixation on brake checking. I don't think in my two+ years I've played this game have ever been properly brake checked. I have, however, on a nearly race to race basis been hit by and have hit people going into corners too aggressively or carelessly.
- 812
- United States
i also feel 50% of the complaining, the person complaining was just as much at fault they just dont wanna admit it. i have made some moves that made people really mad, but if thay had any race craft they would of known i was gonna put my car there. that being said, i dont have that many dirty races being in the SR s groups and if i know i over cooked it and f'd up someone else i will give that spot back...
- 433
- Canada
Exactly, I think for the most part properly S rated drivers govern themselves quite well by giving back positions or holding up after a contact, I know I do.
IMO there should only be a few very specific criteria for the game to dish out a penalty.
1. Car A(trailing) hits Car B(leading) with a certain amount of force, did Car A pass car B after? Give Car A 5-10 seconds to return the position to Car B, if not, Penalty, time dependent on the delta between the cars after the allotted wait time to return the position. Like in traffic laws, the trail car should always be held responsible for any contact.
2. Was car B just off track or travelling at a speed too slow for where it should be? If so, no penalty. I think the most frustrating and common undeserved penalties I've gotten are from hitting people who spun right in front of me or made a dangerous reentry, throttled too hard when on the grass and shot sideways across the track etc.
3. I think a tough one would be Car B(leading) on the inside of a corner forcing Car A(trailing) on the outside off the track or and outside leading car turning in and forcing the trailing car off the track to the inside. I'm sure it could be figured out though.
Whether any of this is possible on the PS4 I don't know. I don't see why not, PCars 2 has a "return the position" type penalty system and it's on the PS4.
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As an addition to the ongoing discussion about who's responsible, here's something @Famine posted in another thread recently.
When we spoke to the FIA at Madrid the representative actually said they don't want a prescribed rule set with pre-set penalties for pre-set offences - because that's not how it works in motorsport either. The goal was a penalty framework or matrix, within which the system could make judgements to increase or decrease penalties where appropriate. ...
I'd never heard that before and I immediately started to wonder what role the FIA could possibly play ...
and I'd actually kind of understand PD sticking to the current game design and that mess of code if the FIA badge was tied to it.
Whatever it is then ... we're not better off anyway.
View attachment 886283
Remember : Pain's an old friend
Ok, this explains why it seems to be so difficult to fix. Without a fix set of rules, yes, it may not get fixed at all in GTS and maybe we need to wait for GT7
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
I made a small racecraft guide for those wondering what the rules of racing are in 1.55
It seems the new philosophy is: The car behind is always right.
Yep, it's been said many times however PD is fixated on penalties instead of fixing the SR system. This new iteration doesn't even have SR Downs, it's always -10 SR when you get a contact penalty, no penalty and you get clean sector SR up no matter how many times you hammer another car.
The races were dirtier, not because of the lack of penalties, because everyone ended up in SR.S, including those that make driving dirty their profession. Simply adding SR Down for any contact with cars, walls, going outside track limits, spinning out, getting ghosted will sort it out over time, as well as limiting the amount of SR you can gain for a daily C race. No need for penalties which only create more accidents at penalty zones.
The collision physics are often exaggerated due to lag, however when you hit an AI car they are far more stable. Perhaps PD should use the AI collision physics for online to make it less of a 🤬 show while giving both cars SR Down.
Btw, I have met some notorious very skilled brake checkers and they never got a penalty for it lol. However if the brake checker goes off, you get a penalty. So even if they were fixated on brake checking, they failed miserably.
It seems the new philosophy is: The car behind is always right.
Yep, it's been said many times however PD is fixated on penalties instead of fixing the SR system. This new iteration doesn't even have SR Downs, it's always -10 SR when you get a contact penalty, no penalty and you get clean sector SR up no matter how many times you hammer another car.
The races were dirtier, not because of the lack of penalties, because everyone ended up in SR.S, including those that make driving dirty their profession. Simply adding SR Down for any contact with cars, walls, going outside track limits, spinning out, getting ghosted will sort it out over time, as well as limiting the amount of SR you can gain for a daily C race. No need for penalties which only create more accidents at penalty zones.
The collision physics are often exaggerated due to lag, however when you hit an AI car they are far more stable. Perhaps PD should use the AI collision physics for online to make it less of a 🤬 show while giving both cars SR Down.
Btw, I have met some notorious very skilled brake checkers and they never got a penalty for it lol. However if the brake checker goes off, you get a penalty. So even if they were fixated on brake checking, they failed miserably.
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- 92
- Bedfordshire
Taken a beating in Race B this evening and it's the dirtiest I've seen in a long time. I was rammed in every race and lost 1600 points, but have recovered to about where I was before, so snakes and ladders again!!
In terms of SR, I've been demoted from S to B and the joke is that it's been others colliding with me deliberately and I'm the mug who's collected the penalties!
I hate to say this, but there really is no incentive to try and drive cleanly. The demolition kids were certainly out in force tonight.
This revised system introduced in the recent update is far from being adequate for people who want to play fairly.
In terms of SR, I've been demoted from S to B and the joke is that it's been others colliding with me deliberately and I'm the mug who's collected the penalties!
I hate to say this, but there really is no incentive to try and drive cleanly. The demolition kids were certainly out in force tonight.
This revised system introduced in the recent update is far from being adequate for people who want to play fairly.
- 433
- Canada
It is possible it's going to be extra dirty these next few days because people "testing" the penalty system, keep that in mind.
- 665
- Edmonton, AB
- GTP_Torontoblue
I really hope someone at PD watches that guide, gets embarrassed and tries to understand what they have done with this game. They need to either repair the broken penalty system, or go back to how it was the past 2 weeks and do away with it totally.
Other racers were kinda scared to do those moves last week due to the fear of retaliation.
Now, there is nothing really stopping the dirty players and gamers having a blast.
Race B earlier (B/S lobby), in 6th position (started 16th), and on the last lap coming into the final chicance. 7th position is around 3/4 sec behind. Do they brake for the chicance? No, absolutely no need when you can ram me to the Neverworld.
I lose 4 places, and about 8 seconds to them. They don't even get a penalty and finish in 6th.
