PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

gtpierre
This "gamer" mentality problem has been mentioned by someone else here and described sometimes ago. From the moment a mainstream competitive game is open to a broad range of players, it will attracts gamers.
Gamers just want to play and win, and they will call you a whiny sissy if you complain about the way they win.

If you play one of the mainstream FPS war game (I guess it's the same for other kind of games), you will also have people playing "dirty" but not in a way that is punished by the game. Camping/spawn camping/ spawn killing, mobing the weakest players just to score without playing for the team etc...

With FPS the best strategy to get rid of these players or to get rid of this type of behavior is to improve the gameplay/modes.
Games like arma, insurgency (...) made it more difficult or almost impossible to benefit from these types of behavior simply by requiring you to play differently.

For GT sport, various solutions have been proposed on this thread, and many would improve the current state of the situation. PD is ignoring them for some reasons.

As many have said, GT sport has a huge potential. The partnership with FIA has a huge potential. But somehow PD seems to be slow at either understanding what they want to achieve, either realizing what they can achieve.
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Absolutely right. This gamer mentality is nothing really new in the GT series. I remember well that many players in the past have won their races with ramming and wallriding in superior cars. But that did not bother anyone at the time because these races were not online. Computer opponents do not complain. Now in a game that is designed as an online game, the different approaches come together. I think PD has completely underestimated this problem. They thought they could handle it with their DR and SR system. But due to the flawed and easy to abuse penalty system, this does not work at all. We can see that even developers who have much experience with online games often do not get a grip on this problem. The last Battlefield games are supposed to be totally contaminated by cheaters. One solution to the problem is to make the games unattractive for pure gamers. You have listed a few examples. A racing game that makes this is I-Racing. There, the costs, harsh penalties and the general structure ensure that hardly any pure gamers play there. Most of the players there are racing fans who at least theoretically know the rules and also try to follow them. The problem is that these are games for a minority. But the GT series has a completely different job. It is the flagship of the PS consoles in racing games. GT should inspire as many players as possible and encourage them to buy a PS. This only succeeds if the game inspires the also as many as possible gamers. But this also gives rise to the conflict. A pure simulation would rather be something for a minority. But for a minority GT can not be designed, because Sony has completely different expectations. This results in objectives that contradict each other. The developers of PD have not managed to unite all these goals and create a satisfying game for everyone. That would be possible, if at all, only with great effort.
 
So this is probably nothing new, but seems like the latest SR System just discourages racing. I can lose SR now for not even bumping people. For example if you are tightly side by side with someone and barely lean on someone, and i mean barely, not even enough to make either car move or divert, it will drop both players SR. I personally find that a bit ridiculous, and while I personally dont care enough about the SR rating to let it stop me, for someone who may be on the edge of a letter drop or whatever, it really will discourage fighting at all... I am not sure if thats intentional but the current SR system is basically sending the message that we are running in line for a 150mph parade. No passing allowed.

Funnily enough i find that hard racing has given SR drops more often than outright crashes. The inconsistency is absolutely unreal.
 
As long as DR And SR are ranked by the current criteria, the gamer /racer will be constantly mismatched. There is little driver skill involved in getting the points just tons of patience and perseverance.
I left the game a year ago and haven't come back due to this. I'd love to see a super licence like we had in the classic games where the licence earned during those tests placed you in relevant online sessions. OK, racers would have considerably less opponents in their groups but all of them would have proved themselves to be willing to practice and improve their skills, the main separator between casual gamers and racers. It would also be a superb boost to the offline portion of the game and increase sales for those who are not really interested in online.
So.. Bring back the grueling licence tests ,with some hard times required for gold ,and use them for a new set of daily races and weekly events running alongside the current casual setup. I'd reinstall the game if it required you to 'get gud' before matchmaking in an entirely skill based online race structure.
 
Was it Burnout Paradise that gave you points for staying crazy close to a car without hitting it? I know they gave points for hitting cars as well but it's ironic that the developers of Burnout Paradise would have a better sense of game design when it comes to using incentives and penalties to shape how the player plays the game.
 
Over the last 6 months or so I've been racing online progressively less. Yesterday my PS+ subscription ran out. And I'm not in a hurry to get back racing online. And in addition to the repetitive track selections, it doesn't make me feel like I'm missing out on anything.

If I think about it, I was only doing Sports Mode races in the hopes things would improve with the penalties. I tried a few exhibition FIA races and the Supra Cup and quickly retired in frustration due to not understanding the logic in the penalties.

Like almost everyone else has said the penalty system needs to be improved. Or at least defined and clarified. Otherwise people will naturally feel like it's pointless to expect fair play and give up in frustration.
 
O604
Over the last 6 months or so I've been racing online progressively less. Yesterday my PS+ subscription ran out. And I'm not in a hurry to get back racing online. And in addition to the repetitive track selections, it doesn't make me feel like I'm missing out on anything.

If I think about it, I was only doing Sports Mode races in the hopes things would improve with the penalties. I tried a few exhibition FIA races and the Supra Cup and quickly retired in frustration due to not understanding the logic in the penalties.

Like almost everyone else has said the penalty system needs to be improved. Or at least defined and clarified. Otherwise people will naturally feel like it's pointless to expect fair play and give up in frustration.
Click to expand...
I have noticed that most posters seem more concerned about how incidents impact their dr or sr. Personally it bothers me more the way someone affects my race.
 
gtpierre
This "gamer" mentality problem has been mentioned by someone else here and described sometimes ago. From the moment a mainstream competitive game is open to a broad range of players, it will attracts gamers.
Gamers just want to play and win, and they will call you a whiny sissy if you complain about the way they win.

If you play one of the mainstream FPS war game (I guess it's the same for other kind of games), you will also have people playing "dirty" but not in a way that is punished by the game. Camping/spawn camping/ spawn killing, mobing the weakest players just to score without playing for the team etc...

With FPS the best strategy to get rid of these players or to get rid of this type of behavior is to improve the gameplay/modes.
Games like arma, insurgency (...) made it more difficult or almost impossible to benefit from these types of behavior simply by requiring you to play differently.

For GT sport, various solutions have been proposed on this thread, and many would improve the current state of the situation. PD is ignoring them for some reasons.

As many have said, GT sport has a huge potential. The partnership with FIA has a huge potential. But somehow PD seems to be slow at either understanding what they want to achieve, either realizing what they can achieve.
Click to expand...
I cant understand the way sony , pd , have decided that once a player has achieved a good dr sr rating , that player should start losing the score they took ages building up all to be lost within a couple of races due to idiots that don't know their brake pedal from their arse .
 
So I was doing the tokyo race and someone hit me from behind and I got a penalty, 5 seconds ther went my 3rd place race, Hay ploy-phoney hit un do.
 
First attempt this evening, punted off 4 times, went from first to finishing 10th with unfair penalty. It started with a laggy 1 bar Brazilian behind me who lag punted me at the Caroussel which slowed us both down, so more Brazilians caught up. The rest of the race was punt to win. Once the second punt got me I was in the backfield where it's a destruction derby.

I wish you could set a filter for matchmaking, no Brazilians, or at least no yellow connections or lower. That would make sport mode so much more enjoyable. Not that the first one was driving dirty, his lag did the punting and diving for him. Lag at high speed simply does not work and the penalty system can't do anything about it.
 
The penalty system literally worked the exact opposite way then it should.
I'm on my alt account starting a Weekly Race A. I start at the back and get off the line well, so does the driver beside me. A few cars ahead get slow starts and I pass them carefully, slowing down a bit to avoid contact. The other player with good momentum stays full throttle, sideswiped me into the wall and rear ended another driver. Somehow I get a time penalty, purposely avoiding contact, yet the player at fault gets nothing.
To try and make things even (in a blatantly dirty way) I punt the driver at fault into turn 1, I do not get a time penalty for this even though I admit I clearly deserve one (unless this is proof that PD is okay with taking revenge). Yet some driver who was around the general area, but did absolutely nothing wrong gets a time penalty
Here is proof.


Honestly after the countless times I have shown and or ranted about the broken penalty system, this is the worst I've ever seen it. Usually the system can get some aspect right, or at least fair, but all of this is completely wrong.
 
MOPARbarrett5
The penalty system literally worked the exact opposite way then it should.
I'm on my alt account starting a Weekly Race A. I start at the back and get off the line well, so does the driver beside me. A few cars ahead get slow starts and I pass them carefully, slowing down a bit to avoid contact. The other player with good momentum stays full throttle, sideswiped me into the wall and rear ended another driver. Somehow I get a time penalty, purposely avoiding contact, yet the player at fault gets nothing.
To try and make things even (in a blatantly dirty way) I punt the driver at fault into turn 1, I do not get a time penalty for this even though I admit I clearly deserve one (unless this is proof that PD is okay with taking revenge). Yet some driver who was around the general area, but did absolutely nothing wrong gets a time penalty
Here is proof.


Honestly after the countless times I have shown and or ranted about the broken penalty system, this is the worst I've ever seen it. Usually the system can get some aspect right, or at least fair, but all of this is completely wrong.
Click to expand...

Why have a system inplace if its not working properly or perhaps PD does not know about the penalty system is not working properly and everything is sweet in Sport Mode Races.
 
fordlaser
Why have a system inplace if its not working properly or perhaps PD does not know about the penalty system is not working properly and everything is sweet in Sport Mode Races.
Click to expand...

When over half the grid quits a race, something is wrong.
When SR.S races frequently end with mostly red dots and red ratings, something is wrong.
When SR ratings keep wildly fluctuating for nearly everyone, something is wrong.

Even without any knowledge of the countless videos and threads demonstrating the problems with the penalty system, their own statistics should clearly show that the current system isn't working as intended. That is, if the intention is to match people with similar driving style together. Perhaps the intention is to teach people that driving dirty is better than trying to avoid contact :lol:

GT Sport seems to be some kind of social experiment, how far can you push players until they turn to the dark side :lol:
 
I don't understand why it is so complicated.
Maybe it's just me but.....

Why don't they take the penalty system out of the game and put full damage on.

It's no more then IRL.
Accidents happen...that's racing.
Just like wheel banging.
Making contact is part of racing IMHO
You win some you lose some.
Bring back the fun.

See what happened in F1 last race in Montreal.
Nobody wants that and everybody talks about it.

The community should bring PD to its knees by ignoring the game for a day or weekend.
all at the same time.

And I do think things will only get worse in wet conditions.
I haven't played for weeks now and not planning to play anymore with this penalty system.

Ranting over...xD
 
Sven Jurgens
When over half the grid quits a race, something is wrong.
When SR.S races frequently end with mostly red dots and red ratings, something is wrong.
When SR ratings keep wildly fluctuating for nearly everyone, something is wrong.

Even without any knowledge of the countless videos and threads demonstrating the problems with the penalty system, their own statistics should clearly show that the current system isn't working as intended. That is, if the intention is to match people with similar driving style together. Perhaps the intention is to teach people that driving dirty is better than trying to avoid contact :lol:

GT Sport seems to be some kind of social experiment, how far can you push players until they turn to the dark side :lol:
Click to expand...
If a player plays continuously in Sport Mode Races, they will end up going to the dark side.
 
PrettyNiceGuy
I don't understand why it is so complicated.
Maybe it's just me but.....

Why don't they take the penalty system out of the game and put full damage on.

It's no more then IRL.
Accidents happen...that's racing.
Just like wheel banging.
Making contact is part of racing IMHO
You win some you lose some.
Bring back the fun.

See what happened in F1 last race in Montreal.
Nobody wants that and everybody talks about it.

The community should bring PD to its knees by ignoring the game for a day or weekend.
all at the same time.

And I do think things will only get worse in wet conditions.
I haven't played for weeks now and not planning to play anymore with this penalty system.

Ranting over...xD
Click to expand...

That's where we fundamentally disagree. That penalty in Montreal was deserved imo. Sports have rules to keep it fair. One rule of GT Sport is, no contact, avoid at all cost even if it means throwing your own race.

There are other forms of motorsport that allow plenty contact, GT Sport isn't simulating that. Online racing is not suitable to contact motor sports since lag interferes. RL doesn't deal with latency and forward prediction. Lag also makes damage a bad option since it's impossible to create accurate physics when the exact position and speed of the cars isn't known.

Anyway there's lobby racing, no penalties there.
 
fordlaser
If a player plays continuously in Sport Mode Races, they will end up going to the dark side.
Click to expand...

Yep, I've been there :lol: It's not fun though, completing races contact free is far more satisfying.

GT Sport is the prisoner's dilemma in a nutshell. If both drive fair all is well, yet one can easily take advantage of the other and when both go at it the whole race becomes a mess.
 
But if you hit someone you take yourself out.
I would do anything to keep my car clean.

Penalties should only be given when cutting the track.

Anyway I think it's way better then what we have now.
I liked qualifying before the penalty buff but now it's just a pain in the ....
No fun at all.

But it's just my two cents.
Hamilton could brake and pass at the other side.
Vettel couldn't do much.
He was steering the opposite direction..
And more important is that they did not touch so why a penalty.
I'm neither fan of both btw.
Just want to make example.

Contact free racing isn't really realistic also.
It just happens.
And people makes mistakes.
 
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@PrettyNiceGuy Absolutely yes. I’ve never had much problem with the penalty system, sometimes track cutting can be harsh, but all-in-all PD has done a good job at policing online races.

Race your own race. Don’t race other drivers, drive the track. And don’t try to beat your penalty. You will make a mistake & get frustrated.
 
I know they will never tell the truth, but it would be interesting to know if the developers are limited in terms of what they can do with penalty algorithms by the hardware.
Is it A. No one is smart enough to develop better algorithms?
Or is it B. Much better algorithms can’t be used due to hardware limitations?

My only thoughts regarding 5he current pen system would be that all incidents should be shared fault. Sr down for both involved plus pens etc. The fact 5hat a person can put their car in a hopeless position on the outside of a turn then turn into you from behind AND outside and then graze a wall and give you a penalty is HOPELESSLY DEFICIENT.
People say turn on damage, shared fault is basically the same as that in effect.
With shared fault the car behind should always get penalty for their nose hitting your bumper PERIOD, but you would get sr down I suppose. So tap tap tap would be sr down for you and PEN PEN PEN for the jackass moron cheater.
I remember vividly a huge number of complaints from the gaming community about the shared fault that was being applied at games release because people were getting punted in t1 and slapped with penalties.
Well, gamers, be careful what you cry about because they adjusted that system less and less strict until you have now something that is worse IMO.
They need some adjustments on pen zone placement, but I think those are a nice addition. You cant hit and run like before and end up in an advantage, but they are not fully implemented and need to be optimized big time.
IF the hardware is the limiting factor imo 5hey should just reset to shared fault for all incidents, and add some type of performance over time buffer to match,asking such that people who have less incidents can not be paired with people who have them all the time. The sr system is perfect, but getting to the highest level is a SAD JOKE it’s far too easy to achieve and too easy to regain after some bad races.
Just make sr b and below much more lax, much less dr gained, no shared fault for contact-leave that to the folks that want to bash. Change matchmaking to NEVER put lower sr in with higher.
I just think applying these concepts would bring the driving standards up in general.
Right now there’s way too man6 races I just look at and laugh like yea riiii, noway am I entering that.

I remember at release being c and s and 5he races were sooo much fun. By now everyone realizes if 5hey lose sr it’s immediately practically GIFTED back by the game.
They should be able to easily enough identify players with a high incident count and throttle back their ability to gain points and safety status for a longer and longer time with each sr dip.
This would create a game within a game in a sense that better drivers would simply never even see less r quality drivers the longer time goes on.
Filling rooms with a big mix just to fill rooms is not the best solution. If there’s only 2 drivers matching entering up just send a message matchmaking unavailable try again later.
Basically right now the system incentivized smart devious behavior. Perhaps this is an accurate reflection of reality, but I personally think in a gaming environment it’s the wrong decision to make.

Stay thirsty my friends.
 
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NoonenF1
@PrettyNiceGuy Absolutely yes. I’ve never had much problem with the penalty system, sometimes track cutting can be harsh, but all-in-all PD has done a good job at policing online races.

Race your own race. Don’t race other drivers, drive the track. And don’t try to beat your penalty. You will make a mistake & get frustrated.
Click to expand...
I agree running your own race is a good thing but when other drivers have a different way of driving then it makes it harder for you . On a straight you want to go forward, others tend to nudge you enough to hit the verge and slow or spin out , thus running your own race becomes a joint effort, you coming out worse.
The system at present doesn't and hasn't favoured the drivers that truly want a racing simulator .
 
I somehow ended up with a 13 second penalty at N24, not seen that before, strangely I only dropped 1 SR 99>98 which seemed a bit weird.
 
PrettyNiceGuy
But if you hit someone you take yourself out.
I would do anything to keep my car clean.

Penalties should only be given when cutting the track.

Anyway I think it's way better then what we have now.
I liked qualifying before the penalty buff but now it's just a pain in the ....
No fun at all.

But it's just my two cents.
Hamilton could brake and pass at the other side.
Vettel couldn't do much.
He was steering the opposite direction..
And more important is that they did not touch so why a penalty.
I'm neither fan of both btw.
Just want to make example.

Contact free racing isn't really realistic also.
It just happens.
And people makes mistakes.
Click to expand...

He got a penalty for crowding the other car off track after re-entering the track. However in your opinion he should have gotten the penalty for cutting the track anyway ;)

Mistakes happen, but if you allow mistakes to happen (not penalize those) then people will create mistakes to take advantage. If you drive within your limits you won't create trouble. Most people are overconfident which is how mistakes happen. Contact free racing is very realistic, it just involves patience and passing in safe places while leaving room for each other.
 
Interesting that the stats on kudos prime show a drop of approximately 10,000 players who compete in sport mode at least once a week over the last 6 or 7 weeks.
 

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