- 3,546
- Theresa, Wisconsin
Keeping the classic alive, 5 sec penalty
And why does PD feel you deserve this penalty? For riding the curbs??
PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!
- Thread starter Gareth davies
- 6,543 comments
- 446,890 views
And why does PD feel you deserve this penalty? For riding the curbs??
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
The car braking too late behind me brushes my bumper before he goes off. He gives me about a 3kph speed boost in the corner. Colliding with another car who goes off, penalty. It's definitely not the force of contact that determines the penalty time, must be purely based on DR difference.
Last week in Bathurst. In L1the driver 2 cars in front of me tries a divebomb in T1. That does not work and he gets into the grass. His victim gets 3 seconds penalty. By the trip into the grass he lost momentum and is slow on the straight. When I want to overtake him with my speed surplus he drives zig zag. I have to slow down to avoid the collision. My backman touches me, loses control and I got 5 seconds penalty. Within a few meters he gave two drivers unjustified time penalties. Neither the other driver in T1 nor I deserve these penalties. Of course, the cause has ended the race with a blue S This is the penalty system in GTS. Bathurst was so bad anyway because on the two long straights many riders drove extremely zigzag to avoid overtaking attempts. Since GTS does not recognize such a thing as unclean it had no consequences for them.
- 417
- North Bohemia
Keeping the classic alive, 5 sec penalty
This is the reason why I finally gave in at 29 SR and qualified. I got sucked into the black hole so hard that I just couldn't get out. Several clean races in a row always destroyed in 1 race by some moron. No matter how hard I tried there was always some divebomber who touched me going off or someone who turned into me in a corner and hit the wall. Incidents you literally can do nothing about except watch helplessly as they're about to happen and then wait for the inevitable punishment. Incidents in which you are the victim and yet you are always the one getting the penalty for because the system is just downright broken and people exploit the 🤬 out of it. You want to get rid of someone who's faster than you? Just tap them and hit a wall/go off track. What an utter disgrace. Starting in pole allowed for much cleaner races. I just had to survive the straight until T2 and then it was "bye bye" because I was in the Ferrari (which was actually very good) and those behind were almost always in the stupid Megane that's only fast in a straight line.
I'm still not SR 99 though. Had a couple of races where the guy behind me in a Megane caught up and got rid of me by turning into me and hitting the wall in Griffins. Giving me 3 beautiful seconds and ruining my SR. And I can't do 150 races every day. I'm not @Sven Jurgens. 
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- 45
- Cotswolds
Yesterday I was behind two people battling for position on the last lap of Race C. The driver behind made an absolutely deliberate pit manoeuvre and spun the other driver in front, who subsequently got T-Boned. The poor driver who got taken out got a 5 second penalty and lost 2nd place. Worked out well for me as I ended up with a podium but it's still wrong.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
This is the reason why I finally gave in at 29 SR and qualified. I got sucked into the black hole so hard that I just couldn't get out. Several clean races in a row always destroyed in 1 race by some moron. No matter how hard I tried there was always some divebomber who touched me going off or someone who turned into me in a corner and hit the wall. Incidents you literally can do nothing about except watch helplessly as they're about to happen and then wait for the inevitable punishment. Incidents in which you are the victim and yet you are always the one getting the penalty for because the system is just downright broken and people exploit the 🤬 out of it. You want to get rid of someone who's faster than you? Just tap them and hit a wall/go off track. What an utter disgrace. Starting in pole allowed for much cleaner races. I just had to survive the straight until T2 and then it was "bye bye" because I was in the Ferrari (which was actually very good) and those behind were almost always in the stupid Megane that's only fast in a straight line.
I switched to race C for a couple races after getting bored of the chaos of SR.C / SR.B racing. Even with my patience getting back up on race B would take far too long with the avg +2 SR per race, then one of those BS penalties drops you down again.
I'll put these here since they'll get buried fast in the daily race thread, the common bs penalties of Mount Panorma
Race C had a ton of SR last week, +21 above 50 SR and with the low SR boost over 60 SR for a clean race in SR.E. In SR.C I got 34 SR for a clean race C. Getting SR back was no problem. However 2 BS penalties in one race B and 20 SR gone again.
- 115
- United Kingdom
What this game needs is a system that gives the benefit of the doubt to a given driver in a given circumstance / drivers who are on or off the racing line.
For example, *Trailing* cars who attempt to pass on the inside should receive the penalty assuming they take an IN/apex/OUT line and the slower car is on the standard racing line. This will stop diver bombers. If the driver is attempting a genuine lunge pass, he should leave space for the slower vehicle by keeping inside. Assuming he does this, the slower vehicle should be area of this penalised for turning in.
Finally, drivers who receive a given number of Down SR during a race need to be disqualified. repeated disqualifications lead to race bans.
There will always be errors, but it's not hard for the AI race director to follow the racing line and make predictions give the speed/angles into corners.
IMPORTANTLY, PD needs to give FEEDBACK to all drivers as to WHY the penalty was given, and in some cases prevent entry into further races until the appropriate lesson/s are completed on the Driving school section.
If PD want to call themselves *the real driving simulator* they have a responsibly of educating drivers and allowing drivers to demonstrate they can drive safely **before** letting them race online. Simply playing a video about what makes you look bad (LOL) isn't enough!
For example, *Trailing* cars who attempt to pass on the inside should receive the penalty assuming they take an IN/apex/OUT line and the slower car is on the standard racing line. This will stop diver bombers. If the driver is attempting a genuine lunge pass, he should leave space for the slower vehicle by keeping inside. Assuming he does this, the slower vehicle should be area of this penalised for turning in.
Finally, drivers who receive a given number of Down SR during a race need to be disqualified. repeated disqualifications lead to race bans.
There will always be errors, but it's not hard for the AI race director to follow the racing line and make predictions give the speed/angles into corners.
IMPORTANTLY, PD needs to give FEEDBACK to all drivers as to WHY the penalty was given, and in some cases prevent entry into further races until the appropriate lesson/s are completed on the Driving school section.
If PD want to call themselves *the real driving simulator* they have a responsibly of educating drivers and allowing drivers to demonstrate they can drive safely **before** letting them race online. Simply playing a video about what makes you look bad (LOL) isn't enough!
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- 665
- Edmonton, AB
- GTP_Torontoblue
Race B, Red Bull Ring is open to a lot of 'gaming' penalties this week.
Getting tapped on the rear going into T1, with the offender going off track gives a penalty to the car ahead that stays on track. Had a couple of them.
And @Sven Jurgens favourite, tap the car ahead and go off track is giving penalties to the aggrieved.
Coming into T1 on the last lap a Merc hits my rear left side, goes off track, I get a 2 second penalty. Now out of T1, said Merc is still on my left side heading up the hill, I was middle to right of the track. For some reason, they sideswipe me and I see them gently go off track to the left; 3 second penalty to me for forcing a car of track. I never moved!!!
Suddenly have 5 seconds of penalties for holding a line and giving room to an opponent. 4TH place finish outta the window after starting dead last. Finished 6th instead.
Turning left into into T3, as I straighten up, a car that has bags of room on my inside right loses control, and nudges the back of my car, I start to spin, but the other car keeps bumping me and I straighten up, they overcorrect and shoot off to the right and hit the barrier. A 1 second penalty to me for forcing a car off track.....WTF???
Started the week on 99 SR, and through a mix of Race B/C, down to 57 SR.
In all of that time, I've caused one crash when missing my braking point on RBR and sent to cars to the kitty litter. For that I received NO penalty and NO SR down.
90% of SR loss has been to taps on the rear and sideswipes/rubbing from other racers.
Getting tapped on the rear going into T1, with the offender going off track gives a penalty to the car ahead that stays on track. Had a couple of them.
And @Sven Jurgens favourite, tap the car ahead and go off track is giving penalties to the aggrieved.
Coming into T1 on the last lap a Merc hits my rear left side, goes off track, I get a 2 second penalty. Now out of T1, said Merc is still on my left side heading up the hill, I was middle to right of the track. For some reason, they sideswipe me and I see them gently go off track to the left; 3 second penalty to me for forcing a car of track. I never moved!!!
Suddenly have 5 seconds of penalties for holding a line and giving room to an opponent. 4TH place finish outta the window after starting dead last. Finished 6th instead.
Turning left into into T3, as I straighten up, a car that has bags of room on my inside right loses control, and nudges the back of my car, I start to spin, but the other car keeps bumping me and I straighten up, they overcorrect and shoot off to the right and hit the barrier. A 1 second penalty to me for forcing a car off track.....WTF???
Started the week on 99 SR, and through a mix of Race B/C, down to 57 SR.
In all of that time, I've caused one crash when missing my braking point on RBR and sent to cars to the kitty litter. For that I received NO penalty and NO SR down.
90% of SR loss has been to taps on the rear and sideswipes/rubbing from other racers.
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- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Sarthe has the same problems. People may not be gaming penalties, simply being clumsy or reckless, the penalty system gets it wrong anyway.
- 71
- United States
So you should be penalized if you cut inside and force the outside car wide? Or do you mean if you cut inside and bump him wide with actual contact? I just wanted to make sure I'm following you. I know you shouldn't force him into a wall or off track but I don't think literally cutting him off with no contact should be a penalty. Cause you could always take the inside line away from him and make him try to pass on the offside. Or he punts you lol which happens a lot in daily lobbies
- 811
- United Kingdom
I was leading 3 cars down mulsanne, all in a line. The guy at back misjudged his slip stream, hit the middle guy who then bumped me. Who gets the Neg SR? Me of course.
Then a guy in front loses it wide at corvette curve and comes back on track, i go as tight as i can but he's lost control and clips my rear, knocking me into the wall. SR down and 5 second penalty for wall collision.
The system i think gets around half the penalties correct. Not good.
Then a guy in front loses it wide at corvette curve and comes back on track, i go as tight as i can but he's lost control and clips my rear, knocking me into the wall. SR down and 5 second penalty for wall collision.
The system i think gets around half the penalties correct. Not good.
- 115
- United Kingdom
When I wrote that I didn’t exactly have the whole algorithm clear in my head
There’s more than just penalties, SR points for example.
Drivers should really be getting penalties for exceeding track limits and and taking shortcuts, and punting others off track.
should they attempt a lunge pass and then go out wide and not leave space for the other drivers. I don’t think that deserves a penalty, especially if there’s no contact but it is dive bombing and they should get some down SR.
However should the attacking car make it to a wheels level/in the defenders field of view, and they keep inside, the defender should receive down SR if there’s a collision at the apex.
My point was that it’s easy for PD to work this stuff out given corner entry angles and speeds... but for some reason they just .... dont
- 45
- Cotswolds
I started this week on 97 SR which I had painstakingly built up over the past week on Race C. First day into RBR and down to as low as 18 at one point.
Now I make a point of being a courteous driver. I'd far rather lift and give away a position than full on fight someone as inevitably anyone that fights hard for position is most likely to wipe themselves and someone else out in front anyway, so the position is likely gained back. Despite the fact I do my best to be the most courteous racer I'm still getting negative SR for other peoples mistakes.
The trick I have discovered this week in attempting to build up my SR ahead of the FIA races is to qualify well and race later into the evening. By which point the gung-ho racing children have been sent to bed and it's generally more respectful racers left. I find that after 11pm GMT that my qualifying position is generally higher and I'm having far more clean races. I had multiple race battles with one particular driver last night who in probably 5 races of fighting for position we never made contact once.
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- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Since I often race all day and at any day of the week, you are absolutely correct on the gung-ho racing children effect.
I have started as early as 6 am EST which is still kinda dirty and risky. Some drunk late to bed people are still left from the west coast (3 AM there) while the attendance is so low at that time that matchmaking goes down to SR.B sometimes even SR.E to fill the room.
7 AM EST seems to be the lowest attended race and easiest to score a victory from the back.
After 8 AM matchmaking gets enough entries again to restrict to SR.S and races clean up until about 3 PM.
The schools are out here at 3 PM EST and you notice it in the race quality which starts to deteriorate while other timezones' schools are out as well.
7 PM to 10 PM EST are the worst dirty hours (4 PM to 7 PM PST), the worst overlap of kiddies playing I guess.
After 10 PM EST races clean up again, however not as clean as during morning hours. The effect of drunk drivers always plays a role at night.
By midnight EST (9 PM PST) attendance slows down, more mixed DR fields that spread out more quickly so less chance at clashes.
By 3 AM (midnight PST) matchmaking starts grasping for entries again and lower SR classes can enter the SR.S lobbies, race quality goes down.
For days of the week
Monday is always bad, new tracks
Tuesday sometimes worse, people think they have figured out the tracks and are overconfident
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, cleaner and cleaner
Saturday, very risky, weekend drivers show up crashing through the field
Sunday, the fast people show up, max SR rooms are generally the cleanest with the highest attendance of A+/S and A/S
- 45
- Cotswolds
Funnily enough discovered this today. Did one race on RBR just to see what the standards were like and see if I can boost my rating from A to S. One race was enough, whilst I didn't lose any SR it's only because after nearly being involved in someone else's massive accident I deliberately hung back and ran around towards the back with enough space around me to keep it clean. I don't mind taking the knock on DR as I'm a mid level B which is actually about right considering my skill level.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
I always love these lag penalties.
A. Bad track re-entry
B. I never hit him
C. 3 sec penalty
A. Bad track re-entry
B. I never hit him
C. 3 sec penalty
That actually works well. When I play very late there are definitely fewer chaotics on the track. My problem is that I am quite tired then which affects my performance. We finally need a penalty system that allows reasonably clean races at all times. Race C was a disaster last week. Constantly ramming and divebombs in the curvy part of the track and zigzagging on the long straight. There were drivers who have totally failed the last turn and then zigzag on the streight to prevent the other cars from overtaking.
- 45
- Cotswolds
- 115
- United Kingdom
As far as I’m aware, the game only penalises drivers when then is contact.
The bottom line is that dive bombers, over aggressive drivers and generally drivers with appalling racecraft are able to maintain an SR: S status, simply because (usually due to the evasive action of more sensible/serious racers) contact is avoided.
SR:S = less contact in a race (not: safer driving / better racecraft)
The bottom line is that dive bombers, over aggressive drivers and generally drivers with appalling racecraft are able to maintain an SR: S status, simply because (usually due to the evasive action of more sensible/serious racers) contact is avoided.
SR:S = less contact in a race (not: safer driving / better racecraft)
- 162
- France
Yesterday on RBR, some guy spun in the hairpin (t2) and parked his Lambo on the apex. I was right behind him.
His car didn't ghost out even though he was entirely stopped at that point (I guess it has something to do with the speed difference the game estimates it needs before ghosting a car, in such a tight corner it was low).
I hit him a bit.
Free 4seconds.
His car didn't ghost out even though he was entirely stopped at that point (I guess it has something to do with the speed difference the game estimates it needs before ghosting a car, in such a tight corner it was low).
I hit him a bit.
Free 4seconds.
- 474
- Jamaican living in UK
- Hygrade-B
I have to agree the system needs work but without it , I know it would not be great.
I got a few 3sec penalty because some driver went off after hitting me a few times in the rear or side.
It got me thinking does PD want me to let people pass me? If that driver hits me over and over again?
I now just drive not to win but to improve my rating so I can race against cleaner drivers.
Just like the rain the penalty system works but has its problems
I got a few 3sec penalty because some driver went off after hitting me a few times in the rear or side.
It got me thinking does PD want me to let people pass me? If that driver hits me over and over again?
I now just drive not to win but to improve my rating so I can race against cleaner drivers.
Just like the rain the penalty system works but has its problems
- 3,816
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
Great theory, but that's not how it works.
Right now, the "mandatory" penalty for knocking a car off track is sketchy at best. First off, it often misses when a car is actually put off track in an intentional dirty move, such as a PIT maneuver. I saw this for myself last night. This probably occurs because the unsuspecting victim tries to catch the slide and stay on track, thereby only going off after the window of time for being put off track has expired. This leaves the system open to constant abuse. For instance, a crap driver, who can't control the Huracan, loses the rear end and begins to fishtail. Despite my evasive move, he hits me and the force sends him into the grass. I get the penalty. This happened last night.
(Aside, despite this tool losing control of his Huracan for 5 laps and hitting everyone around him, he went out of his way to call me dirty. No self awareness at all!!)
The penalty is solely based on going off track, which car went off track, and the time since the impact.
Since blame is a contextual thing, the context of the impact needs to be taken into consideration. Was there sudden steering input? Was the "victim" already under a penalty? What was the vector of the "culprit"? On impact, was the "culprit's" move towards or away from the "victim"? Was the "victim" off circuit within the last 5 seconds? The system has enough time after impact to determine whether the contact was inappropriate or not.
The same goes for "cutting" the track. I've been knocked off track, the culprit gets nothing, but I get a track cut penalty.
You can build some simple AI to run through a decision tree to determine if a penalty is warranted or not. The penalty system actually takes some time to decide, so the intention is likely there. However, what PD has currently done is make a very short tree with two decisions?
Was there contact? If Yes, did someone go off track? If yes, then blame the person who did not go off track. It is the Dunning-Kreuger of AI implementation.
I have said it a BILLION times by now. Back when we had the super strict system where it gave out penalty time based on impact force, and there were 10 second penalties, THAT was the best implementation. Everyone understood to avoid all contact lest you get a penalty. All we asked for was no penalty for light contact so that two cars could race around corners. Instead, we got the current turd in a bucket system.
Edit - I see where you are trying to go with your statement, but the SR system actually does work as intended. The issue is that with computing, the old adage of "garbage in/garbage out" always applies and the SR system is getting "garbage in" information.
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Absolutely right. I still remember the whole complaint about the penalty system when it was so strict. Everywhere it said: "rubbing is racing" or "in real racing crashing and ramming is normal". I do not know what these players understand by racing or which real racing they are watching (maybe NASCAR, but is it really that bad?). But I see it differently. PD gave in to all the complaints and we got what we all complain about here.
Many players can not or do not want to play without touching each other. It is easily possible with a bit of clarity, and consideration. But they can not or do not want that. I think that's a shame because the races are great in the rare cases where I'm surrounded by clean players. But unfortunately, in most cases, there are a few dirty or over-motivated drivers who destroy everything.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Nah. He was upset becuse I hit him earlier when he spun off the track and rejoined in front of me slipping and sliding across the track like drunk horse on rolerskates.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
Yeah I know, even if he wanted to pit, slow down. A lot of people just try to ram their way in there.
Penalties are so inconsistent. There's a wall on the Nordschleife where you get 5 sec for touching it while already losing a ton of time. Other walls, happy bouncing! Punt someone off, only 1 or 2 sec. Take a blatant short cut gaining time, 0.5 sec or nothing. Priorities.
- 3,816
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
I want to know (not like they'll talk) if they plan on releasing a more improved version for the PS5. I would imagine that the extra horsepower of the PS5 would allow for better AI decision making ability, and therefore a better system to determine fault, but I would love to know if we should be expecting something like that or not.
Given the choice of this system or no system, I would still take the current system because there is SOME degree of accountability.
Personally, I think 4k is the problem. I think the extra cycles required to run in 4k keeps the system from being truly better. That said, bring back the time for contact system that we used to have. Just add a little more tolerance for light contact because light contact is going to happen even with clean racing. That's what "rubbing" is.
Given the choice of this system or no system, I would still take the current system because there is SOME degree of accountability.
Personally, I think 4k is the problem. I think the extra cycles required to run in 4k keeps the system from being truly better. That said, bring back the time for contact system that we used to have. Just add a little more tolerance for light contact because light contact is going to happen even with clean racing. That's what "rubbing" is.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
It's good that the system also looks at the consequences. I've been lightly rubbed to have 2 wheels over the edge into the grass right before a braking zone, deadly move. But true, light contact where both cars keep control should not lead to a penalty.
4K is not the problem. The game can run 19 cars on the track who all avoid each other and your car. Online it doesn't have to do any of that, and it already forward predicts the paths of the other cars on track. Looking at the path data would help a lot. Lag uncertainty is the big problem which is how the previous system got it wrong so often. Force of impact, position of impact, all depends on lag and the question is, are you responsible for what happens on your system or for what happens on the other system. First it was purely based on what happens on your system, yet look at a few posts above where my car lag shunts another car and now you're also responsible for stuff you didn't even do.
It seems PD gave on on solving the lag puzzle and we're stuck with this.
- 3,816
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
AI is notoriously taxing to compute. Things that we consider simple is often SUPER complicated to put into an algorithm and can involve a lot of slow time intensive code.
Even lag shouldn't be an issue because the information should be reconciled on the server, not from the local machines.
Anyway, it's all conjecture. I have no idea what they have actually implemented, but I know what they have now is not the right solution, However, given the GT7 is on it's way for Holidays 2020, it's unlikely that we will see any fixes unless it's something that can be ported over to the new game as well.
