PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[Sven Jurgens]

AI is notoriously taxing to compute. Things that we consider simple is often SUPER complicated to put into an algorithm and can involve a lot of slow time intensive code.

Even lag shouldn't be an issue because the information should be reconciled on the server, not from the local machines.

Anyway, it's all conjecture. I have no idea what they have actually implemented, but I know what they have now is not the right solution, However, given the GT7 is on it's way for Holidays 2020, it's unlikely that we will see any fixes unless it's something that can be ported over to the new game as well.

Exactly, the resources freed up from not running AI for 19 cars should be plenty to figure out who hit who.

The lag issue is more of a theoretical problem. Every one gets a slightly different race on their console. If you solve it on the server, what exactly are you solving? The server gets all the inputs from everyone, however those are based on what everyone sees on their console. I avoided a car on my screen, yet due to us both having yellow connections at the time, my car punted that car off on his screen. What can the server do?

Beyond tweaking the time penalties (I saw it's now 1.5 sec for wall contact in FIA races) I agree that nothing substantial will change anymore. We're stuck with blaming the car that stays on the road or gains speed for SR Downs.

 

[Try_Rebooting]

Great theory, but that's not how it works.

Right now, the "mandatory" penalty for knocking a car off track is sketchy at best. First off, it often misses when a car is actually put off track in an intentional dirty move, such as a PIT maneuver. I saw this for myself last night. This probably occurs because the unsuspecting victim tries to catch the slide and stay on track, thereby only going off after the window of time for being put off track has expired. This leaves the system open to constant abuse. For instance, a crap driver, who can't control the Huracan, loses the rear end and begins to fishtail. Despite my evasive move, he hits me and the force sends him into the grass. I get the penalty. This happened last night.

(Aside, despite this tool losing control of his Huracan for 5 laps and hitting everyone around him, he went out of his way to call me dirty. No self awareness at all!!)

The penalty is solely based on going off track, which car went off track, and the time since the impact.

Since blame is a contextual thing, the context of the impact needs to be taken into consideration. Was there sudden steering input? Was the "victim" already under a penalty? What was the vector of the "culprit"? On impact, was the "culprit's" move towards or away from the "victim"? Was the "victim" off circuit within the last 5 seconds? The system has enough time after impact to determine whether the contact was inappropriate or not.

The same goes for "cutting" the track. I've been knocked off track, the culprit gets nothing, but I get a track cut penalty.

You can build some simple AI to run through a decision tree to determine if a penalty is warranted or not. The penalty system actually takes some time to decide, so the intention is likely there. However, what PD has currently done is make a very short tree with two decisions?

Was there contact? If Yes, did someone go off track? If yes, then blame the person who did not go off track. It is the Dunning-Kreuger of AI implementation.

I have said it a BILLION times by now. Back when we had the super strict system where it gave out penalty time based on impact force, and there were 10 second penalties, THAT was the best implementation. Everyone understood to avoid all contact lest you get a penalty. All we asked for was no penalty for light contact so that two cars could race around corners. Instead, we got the current turd in a bucket system.

Edit - I see where you are trying to go with your statement, but the SR system actually does work as intended. The issue is that with computing, the old adage of "garbage in/garbage out" always applies and the SR system is getting "garbage in" information.

Yea, I agree with everything you said, but I’m not sure you understood what I was getting at, or maybe I dint make myself clear.

What I’m saying is, a lot of SR:S drivers and nothing of the sort, they are only S rated because of the skill and forward thinking of other drivers.

The guy who bumped you is a big part of the problem with the game.
Your right, you only got a penalty because. You came off track! Even though it wasn’t your fault. Had he hit you, but you kept it on the track you’d still have been penalised with negative SR.

My point is, that this had you had managed to avoid him completely, this you would not have had any SR impact, and unfortunately neither would this tool, and he gets to keep is current safety rating!

The system doesn’t really penalise bad drivers. It only give last negative SR for any form of contact, and penalties for going off track. Which I know is often applied totally incorrectly.

 

[Try_Rebooting]

AI is notoriously taxing to compute. Things that we consider simple is often SUPER complicated to put into an algorithm and can involve a lot of slow time intensive code.

Even lag shouldn't be an issue because the information should be reconciled on the server, not from the local machines.

Anyway, it's all conjecture. I have no idea what they have actually implemented, but I know what they have now is not the right solution, However, given the GT7 is on it's way for Holidays 2020, it's unlikely that we will see any fixes unless it's something that can be ported over to the new game as well.

That’s interesting. I thought the GT Sport series was a different type of game, and would continue to run alongside GT 5, 6 and 7 etc...

 

[Voodoovaj]

Yea, I agree with everything you said, but I’m not sure you understood what I was getting at, or maybe I dint make myself clear.

I went off on a bit of a rant because the current iteration of the system upsets me, but the notion of an "S" driver being able to avoid contact is a little misguided. That's where I was going.

In any case, both the DR and SR ratings need work on how "sticky" they are. I have been a vocal opponent of how rapidly you can go from DR A to DR C through altercations. IMHO DR should be more sticky. You should earn it over a long time. To some extent, we guard our SR because losing SR is how we rapidly lose DR.

I have been saying for a while that the penalty system needs to deal out FAR larger time penalties and SR point losses for coming together with people, BUT that can't happen in the current implementation because it's far too easy for good drivers to accumulate penalties.

That’s interesting. I thought the GT Sport series was a different type of game, and would continue to run alongside GT 5, 6 and 7 etc...

PD has only ever worked on one game at a time. I can't imagine that would change.

Sport mode is merely an evolution of GT6's quick race. GT7 will have something similar.

 

[Try_Rebooting]

I went off on a bit of a rant because the current iteration of the system upsets me, but the notion of an "S" driver being able to avoid contact is a little misguided. That's where I was going.

I didn't think you were ranting.

Not every SR:S racer is bad. I've raced against some drivers who know how to race fair. The problem is, having S rated drivers who able to avoid the contact unfortunately means that the tools can keep their SR rating too!

SR:A drivers or below shouldn't be racing online period!!! SR:S lobbies are a compete lottery at best! You never know if the guy behind you knows how to pass cleanly, or is only in the S lobby because other drivers have either skilfully or by complete fluke, managed to avoid him.

Until PD can find a way to separate the SR:S racers into groups, SR:S & SR:S+ for example, Sport mode will never be as much fun as it can be!!!

PD has only ever worked on one game at a time. I can't imagine that would change.

Sport mode is merely an evolution of GT6's quick race. GT7 will have something similar.

I really hope they release GT7 for the PS4 or 5 or whatever, i don't care, and keep the servers up on GT Sport. They can then release a PS5 version of GT Sport, or port it, and continue to update it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I really hope they release GT7 for the PS4 or 5 or whatever, i don't care, and keep the servers up on GT Sport. They can then release a PS5 version of GT Sport, or port it, and continue to update it.

They'll do the exact same things they have done since GT5. GT7 will release with PS5. the GTSport servers will remain up for 6 months or so, then it'll be shut down.

 

[Granadier]

80-90 should still be A
90-98 should be S
99 should be S+

Match all the S+ drivers up together so they can experience cleaner racing more often. Having a 20 point spread for S is an absolute disgrace.

Penalty wise, wall hits should never be penalties unless they are side impacts and give you an increase in mid-sector time. Losing control and slamming head on into the wall should never give you a penalty since you're already losing massive time.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I didn't think you were ranting.

Not every SR:S racer is bad. I've raced against some drivers who know how to race fair. The problem is, having S rated drivers who able to avoid the contact unfortunately means that the tools can keep their SR rating too!

SR:A drivers or below shouldn't be racing online period!!! SR:S lobbies are a compete lottery at best! You never know if the guy behind you knows how to pass cleanly, or is only in the S lobby because other drivers have either skilfully or by complete fluke, managed to avoid him.

Until PD can find a way to separate the SR:S racers into groups, SR:S & SR:S+ for example, Sport mode will never be as much fun as it can be!!!

I really hope they release GT7 for the PS4 or 5 or whatever, i don't care, and keep the servers up on GT Sport. They can then release a PS5 version of GT Sport, or port it, and continue to update it.

I get what you mean. Since I start from the back I also see plenty D/S drivers that do not deserve the SR.S status at all. The game ghosts them when they do something bad so they go right through you. Great that they don't ram you off, but they get to keep their S as well while being totally out of control. I've said it many times before, leaving the road, spinning out, touching walls should all be SR Down. Safe driving starts by keeping the car under control. Even in the SR.S lobbies I was often the only driver ending races at Sarthe without a red dot. Passing over the grass or by cutting a corner should not be rewarded with a blue S.

 

[Dorofint]

I get what you mean. Since I start from the back I also see plenty D/S drivers that do not deserve the SR.S status at all. The game ghosts them when they do something bad so they go right through you. Great that they don't ram you off, but they get to keep their S as well while being totally out of control. I've said it many times before, leaving the road, spinning out, touching walls should all be SR Down. Safe driving starts by keeping the car under control. Even in the SR.S lobbies I was often the only driver ending races at Sarthe without a red dot. Passing over the grass or by cutting a corner should not be rewarded with a blue S.

Absolutely right. If someone loses control, drives over the grass or touches the wall, it shows that he is not driving safely. That should give deductions at the SR rating. But even here the faulty penalty system has an influence. When I drive through the grass it should be considered why I do that. Was it my fault, did I avoid an unsafe driver or was I pushed? That should definitely have an influence. But with the current promitive system, such a thing is not feasible. You certainly know that best of us all.

 

[KaiB]

People are asking for a almost impossible thing, no mather how they work the I.A there will always be flaws, even FIA judges tend to fail and they can se the replays and have time to judge.

The only way i found to avoid getting unfair penaltys it´s to be really patience and don´t get on my nerves, this i tested on daily races that i hate so much cause people are just morrons there no other words to describe it.

Every time i respond acording my state of mind for getting unfair penaltys the result it´s a acumalation of more penaltys and by this time i was getting both fair penaltys and unfair, but both of them seemed unfair cause i was doing justice by my own hands.

i lost like 7 k DR and losed SR S very fast like 2 races or 3, than i calmed down and though i had to recover what i lost and took me like 6 races to recover all, all of them clean races in dailys.

Conclusion: The better thing it´s to qualy top3 and try to nail the first corners if you do that the chance of getting a clean race raise a lot cause most of times the chaos behind will give you a free gap, than is just follow the guys in front and only atack if the beahvior of drivers in front seems clean if not just let them fight until they ruin their race and you capitalise.

If you are not able to qualy in front and get stucked in middle of the sharks the only option it´s to be aware and try to avoid contact.., this means you´ll probably lose positions but has long has you keep the speed and stay near them even if they pushed you or bumped you a bit don´t enter their game and keep calm, it´s all about avoid toxic players and most of times that means lift a bit and take diferent lines even when you are in front to avoid being bumped from behind.

It´s very hard but from my little test the best system it´s to handle the horses and try to capitalise when you shure it´s contact free and that a little gap can be gained, the rest it´s like a BR game let all the toxic player "kill" themself and try to finish in the best position otherwise will be a snowball.

It´s not straight forward but since i play and from what i see the best thing to do it´s to not respond with similar beahvior and try to improve awarness and be clean, y will not avoid unfair penaltys but will reduce a lot the number of incidents.

I think theres some kind of drug provided in daily race lobbys, in FIA races and private lobbys it´s hard to see this kind of beahvior from players, yes sometimes incidents happens and there are toxic players but the numbers are not even close comparing with dailys.

 

[ringkurier]

The more I think about the penalty system, the more it is very complicated to give the A.I. the ability to "know" what is false and should be disciplined with a penalty.

Maybe, an alternative idea:

As there was a change from punishment to a reward system in the education of childs, maybe this can work with Gran Turismo.

If people could possible get a reward by doing a clean race, like.... don´t know? 5hp more in the next race? 10 kilos less weight? Maybe this will give some of the aggressive players a reason to be kind and avoid a few incidents.

Another idea:

Choose your lobby! Do you want to do "clear" races or do you want to participate in a "dirty" race. Maybe the nice girls and guys could be seperated a bit.

 

[banckzy]

I literally got punted off and stopped me from getting a 200point win at seaside last night. Because the penalty line there is right near a braking zone, after his 4sec penalty he was still in front of me despite me only being 2.5/3secs behind after his punt.

He apologised after the race, but didn't give position back during the race so I told him his apology means nothing.

 

[Hygrade B]

Is it the penalty system at fault or the bad driving.
I agree with some of the things robin pole has said about AI.
We expect a perfect AI system made by people that make mistake every day.
What we need is a better system separating bad & decent drivers.
Some driver don't care about the point system & don't care if there get a penalty to them it's just fun.
So until we can some how separate the bad from decent nothing will work.
PD tried to make a penalty system that will work if drivers drive to the rules.
I.e
Leave space for other drivers on the track.
No change position under braking.
No forcing cars off the road.
No brake checking.
But as you all said this never happens & some decent drivers turn to the dark side and feel they're now have the right which you don't.

It takes 1 fool to mess up the game then you find others that instead of ignoring that person & void them decide they are God and it's there job to punish everyone else.

Some of these drivers, do the same thing in real life...lol

 

[BaareCZ]

I literally got punted off and stopped me from getting a 200point win at seaside last night. Because the penalty line there is right near a braking zone, after his 4sec penalty he was still in front of me despite me only being 2.5/3secs behind after his punt.

He apologised after the race, but didn't give position back during the race so I told him his apology means nothing.

Good. Because if he didn't give the position back then the apology really means absolutely nothing. I don't even understand why he would apologise after the race when he didn't give you the position back. Especially if it would only cost him the one position. That's kind of pointless, isn't it? And yeah, the penalty line at DTS really is useless. Players with 5s penalties for punting me off would still stay comfortably ahead of me after serving it. Why didn't they put it on the straight after the chicane of death or on the start/finish straight? That's beyond me. But that's PD.

 

[banckzy]

Good. Because if he didn't give the position back then the apology really means absolutely nothing. I don't even understand why he would apologise after the race when he didn't give you the position back. Especially if it would only cost him the one position. That's kind of pointless, isn't it? And yeah, the penalty line at DTS really is useless. Players with 5s penalties for punting me off would still stay comfortably ahead of me after serving it. Why didn't they put it on the straight after the chicane of death or on the start/finish straight? That's beyond me. But that's PD.

Good job I managed to get past him and bag p2 then isn't it.

Yes, there are a few tracks that need penalty line adjusted in my opinion. Like you said DT should have penalty line at the start/finish line. The worst was Sardegna C II.... the penalty line was on a bend where its single file only.... absolute chaos.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Absolutely appalled last night at Interlagos. I totally messed up the replay so I will post it tomorrow but in one race i was given 2 seconds because the guy in front of me lost it and tagged my rear as he spun.

That put me in the path of an animal who had already nerfed someone at T1 and managed to get away without a penalty so he did the the exact same thing to me and ran me off the road ..... absolutely no penalty for him and I get half a second.

It's absolutely ridiculous, the game is a farce right now. Everyone working on this game needs to stop now and fix this, it's totally broken.

 

[Dorofint]

Absolutely appalled last night at Interlagos. I totally messed up the replay so I will post it tomorrow but in one race i was given 2 seconds because the guy in front of me lost it and tagged my rear as he spun.

That put me in the path of an animal who had already nerfed someone at T1 and managed to get away without a penalty so he did the the exact same thing to me and ran me off the road ..... absolutely no penalty for him and I get half a second.

It's absolutely ridiculous, the game is a farce right now. Everyone working on this game needs to stop now and fix this, it's totally broken.

This is very familiar to me ... Some players use the weaknesses of the system to excess. Yesterday I was rammed off my line in L1 T1 and so overtaken. T2 and T3, he messed up and was therefore slow on the next straight. In order not to be overtaken he drove zigzagging and pushed me with 2 wheels on the grass. In T8 he made a divebomb from far behind and overtook another driver. After T13 he drove zigzag again. So it went on in the race. At the end of the race he was second with a bright blue S. For the game he was as pure and innocent as a virgin. The game is an absolute joke. How can such a behavior be classified as clean?

 

[NevilleNobody]

It wa snot like this before though, they changed something about a year ago where the guy behind gets benefit of the doubt and it has been downhill since then.

I have been quite forgiving of the system but it is broken now, what I saw last night was just unforgivable for a game with $300M in revenue.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

The more I think about the penalty system, the more it is very complicated to give the A.I. the ability to "know" what is false and should be disciplined with a penalty.

Maybe, an alternative idea:

As there was a change from punishment to a reward system in the education of childs, maybe this can work with Gran Turismo.

If people could possible get a reward by doing a clean race, like.... don´t know? 5hp more in the next race? 10 kilos less weight? Maybe this will give some of the aggressive players a reason to be kind and avoid a few incidents.

Another idea:

Choose your lobby! Do you want to do "clear" races or do you want to participate in a "dirty" race. Maybe the nice girls and guys could be seperated a bit.

That only works if enforced by moderators and even then, people were infiltrating the groups in Elite Dangerous especially set up and moderated for non grief playing, to cause as much trouble before they got kicked out again. Since you can always make a new account, IP or PS4 bans is the only way it is going to work.

And yes it's very complicated to get it perfect with AI, however it's not very difficult to make huge improvements to what we have currently both for penalties and SR calculations. The easiest improvement is to base SR on nr of contacts you're involved in over time and penalize for going off road, losing control and touching walls on your own (not pushed or forced).

It was better before, the current system endorses bumping people out of the way. For every brake check there are a 100 bumps from behind that should result in SR Down for the car behind, not the car in front.

 

[sturk0167]

That only works if enforced by moderators and even then, people were infiltrating the groups in Elite Dangerous especially set up and moderated for non grief playing to cause as much trouble before they got kicked out again. Since you can always make a new account, IP or PS4 bans is the only way it is going to work.

And yes it's very complicated to get it perfect with AI, however it's not very difficult to make huge improvements to what we have currently both for penalties and SR calculations. The easiest improvement is to base SR on nr of contacts you're involved in over time and penalize for going off road, losing control and touching walls on your own (not pushed or forced).

It was better before, the current system endorses bumping people out of the way. For every brake check there are a 100 bumps from behind that should result in SR Down for the car behind, not the car in front.

I've got it! After too many crashes, your driver dies! #GTA5

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I've got it! After too many crashes, your driver dies. #GTA5

More alt accounts! During the race, yep, great idea. Bring the DQ system back, after fixing the bump to SR Down and DQ the car ahead. It was pretty funny on BMB, draft bump to get the car ahead thrown out of the race

 

[Voodoovaj]

People are asking for a almost impossible thing, no mather how they work the I.A there will always be flaws, even FIA judges tend to fail and they can se the replays and have time to judge.

Not really. As I have stated many times, the early iteration of the system where all contact resulted in a penalty was pretty much what people are asking for. If all contact risks a penalty, all contact will be avoided.

Remember, we did not have the combination of time for contact AND mandatory penalty stops. I think those two systems would work BRILLIANTLY to reduce the bad driving.

I agree that light contact should not count, because light contact is barely noticeable and doesn't move the cars. But, if the contact is strong enough to move a car, a time penalty of some sort SHOULD be handed down.

I JUST participated in a Race B at Interlagos (for those reading beyond this week) where the first three finishers all had red "S". The pole sitter, and I who started 3rd, had blue "S". We were both completely mugged in the race. I followed the pole sitter, and the eventual winner as they fought for the lead and I watched the eventual winner drive in a manner that anyone would consider irresponsible and dirty. He eventually forced the pole sitter off track, although there was not enough contact for a time penalty (go figure).

Meanwhile, I was being mugged by two people behind me. I was behind held up by not shoving my car into the battle ahead (which would mean contact). The people behind me didn't care. The guy who finished second did a dive bomb on the guy behind me and then slammed into the side of my car. He was so far back that his braking point would have easily sent him off track if not for my car. Instead, I get race losing contact, but I didn't go off track, so no penalty and he hit the side of my car, so again, no penalty.

The system currently REWARDS bad and dirty driving. I'm over here trying to be aggressive but not slam into people and I am losing positions as a result. At the same time, people who take the corner at all costs, are rewarded more often than not. Red S? No big deal, I'll just drive clean next race.

Meanwhile, on Monday, I lost my S status because some guy dive bombed me at Nurb, I saw this and avoided, he went off track, hit the wall, bounced BACK onto the track into my path. I T-bone him, and I get a massive penalty and an A rating. Why was he not a ghost the MOMENT he lost control? We KNOW the game can do this because it's been an option since GT5. Why was he not a ghost when he hit the wall? Why was he not a ghost when he was perpendicular to the racing line? These are all things that are possible.

Yes, some people are asking for perfection, which is not possible, but better than what we currently have is possible.

 

[Try_Rebooting]

We are all complaining, and I guess rightly so, however we all make mistakes.

Imagine... we could have raced each other already, and then come here to sound off! Not realising who we are talking to...

A bit like a mirror version of “you’ve got mail” lol.

We should set up a lobby as we all self profess to race clean.

Perhaps we could learn some things

 

[Hygrade B]

We are all complaining, and I guess rightly so, however we all make mistakes.

Imagine... we could have raced each other already, and then come here to sound off! Not realising who we are talking to...

A bit like a mirror version of “you’ve got mail” lol.

We should set up a lobby as we all self profess to race clean.

Perhaps we could learn some things

Lol I was thinking that when I was writing my bit... Can
you imagine if you are agreeing with others about some one bad driving and you find out it was you
The lobby idea is great.. but I guess we all live in different times zones.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Lol I was thinking that when I was writing my bit... Can
you imagine if you are agreeing with others about some one bad driving and you find out it was you
The lobby idea is great.. but I guess we all live in different times zones.

Lobbies are worse for lag and contact free racing is nearly impossible in lobbies. It's hard enough dealing with Brazilian internet. However most of the bad driving is simply making dumb moves, over driving the car and driving too close behind another car. Yet when you try to keep some distance to plan a move you get a nose stuck on your inside or a bump from behind. Impatience with zero thinking ahead is what causes the most accidents.

 

[Groundfish]

The initial penalty system was the best.
I blame you tube and internet complainers for whining for the changes.
But I get it.
People weren’t racing hard.
Youd think they could do something about barge passing and nose poking.

I must say though...This will be very very unpopular.

If you want clean SLOW DOWN.
If you get qual by crash retry crash retry crash retry and go into a race without even being able to turn clean consistent ten twelve laps at a given pace you simply ought to slow down.
The biggest problem is when people are simply not in control.
I agree 99 should be s plus. Sub 90 should be a or a plus.
The better the system can get the better the game.
Until it’s changed barge passing is allowed.
Nose sticking is standard practice.
Baby punting is in effect.
If one accepts what is allowed they can play accordingly.
Even at 99 nothing is a guarantee. That’s part of the allure.
Doing some dirty races on an alt also can strongly improve a guys racecraft.
You can’t just race and hope the pen system saves you.
You have to control what’s happening and understand when you are in a high risk situation.

The biggest problem right now imo is just
sliding, no hope of making corner car hits you and goes off or into wall.
Car spins 90 to track in front of you and hits you before off or wall.

Getting pens from these is so wrong.

 

[NevilleNobody]

No, what i saw last night was none of that. it was deliberate running people off the road, absolutely deliberate. i will post a video tomorrow. Right up the clacker.

 

[Try_Rebooting]

It's hard enough dealing with Brazilian internet.

LOL I live in Brazil - The internet is shocking - although I'm English, and fortunately I'm able to race in the EMEA region as the time zones are good for me.

I have never found lag to be too much of a problem, I see it occasionally but try to avoid the cars. I could be wrong, but maybe lag can be created by bad driving. If someone is always on the controls, constantly trying to keep the car in control... all those little inputs.....

Having said that, I race with my 10yo kid on line... he drives this way and never lags

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Sorry to say but it was better when the servers were split. For some reason the penalty system always gives the benefit to the laggy car.

I drive myself off but knew he was going to do everything to block or bump me off as you can see in the rest of the clip. The Brazilian of course gets a blue S. It's just not fun anymore to race with Brazilians.

 

[Groundfish]

No, what i saw last night was none of that. it was deliberate running people off the road, absolutely deliberate. i will post a video tomorrow. Right up the clacker.

(((actually quite scared Nev had an alt account in any of my numerous rampage races at low sr before it was reset)))