PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

[breeminator]

Simple system: Front hits back. Penalize guy in back proportional to the impact force. Also, turn on light damage. I guarantee that VERY few people will intentionally brake check someone if they risk losing time to damage. This would see far more accurate penalties.

It wouldn't work, everyone would just start lifting to make the car behind tap them. We already have light damage in FIA races, you don't get any damage from a rear tap. It's easy to claim you have a simple solution when it isn't being put to the test.

 

[John G]

Had a strange race C today, i was the only DR B in a field of DR D. One guy was playing with me having a little battle for the lead (like he was clearly quicker than me despite being dr D but just wanted some action). After he served a shortcut penalty he dropped back presumably to play with the second place guy. Anyway i win the race and watching the timing screen with everyone else crossing the line, he and 4 other cars all get a 20 second penalty flag up. What's that about, are they deliberately getting penalties at the end of the race to remain in DR D?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Had a strange race C today, i was the only DR B in a field of DR D. One guy was playing with me having a little battle for the lead (like he was clearly quicker than me despite being dr D but just wanted some action). After he served a shortcut penalty he dropped back presumably to play with the second place guy. Anyway i win the race and watching the timing screen with everyone else crossing the line, he and 4 other cars all get a 20 second penalty flag up. What's that about, are they deliberately getting penalties at the end of the race to remain in DR D?

Mandatory Tires at Pit Stop: Racing: Hard


The 20 sec penalty at the end is for not complying with the hidden race regulations. It's in the race details no one ever looks at, although after the last patch it's now also at the bottom right when entering the race. Required tires: RH. At some point during the race you need to use hard tires. (Not necessarily all 4, you can start on a mixed set and it still counts)

It wouldn't work, everyone would just start lifting to make the car behind tap them. We already have light damage in FIA races, you don't get any damage from a rear tap. It's easy to claim you have a simple solution when it isn't being put to the test.

It is quite simple: give both cars SR Down or 0.5 sec penalty for contact. PD has clearly demonstrated that they can't figure out who is to blame, so equal blame is the only thing left.

To fix the dive bomb problem @GOTMAXPOWER showed a few posts back, simply turn on the ghosting that works perfectly fine in low SR lobbies yet add a penalty and SR Down for needing to be ghosted. Try that in SR.E and you get ghosted and go straight through into the kitty litter without hitting anyone. For some reason PD wants to feed the trolls in high SR lobbies while sitting on a solution that works perfectly fine.

 

[Redneckchef]

At some point during the race you need to use hard tires. (Not necessarily all 4, you can start on a mixed set and it still counts)

I am not 100pct certain but I think the last update also got rid of that mixed set option. I can't think of a reason to really try it this week though so won't find out. Unless someone else had tried it this time.

 

[Trone_Colby]

I’m the white car. When it supposed to work right, it doesn’t. Ruin my FIA race.

 

[Jagman XK8]

My daughter bought me GTS for Xmas last year and I love it. I've completed all the driving school / challenges and track challenges to gold standard and have reached level 48. I am over 60 in age and have pride in my real driving ability. I usually finish in the top 500 in the two time trials open to all.

I use just the DS controller with auto transmission and I know this places me at an immediate disadvantage, but the other half says she doesn't want a rig cluttering up the living room.

For Xmas this year, I was bought a 1 month subscription to PS Plus. I was scared about racing real people for fear of being absolutely thrashed, but pleasantly surprised with the 'matching' system and, since starting to play on Boxing Day, have managed to win a race and reach DR C and SR S.

However, yesterday must have been idiots day out. I was trying to drive cleanly, following the natural driving line and was smashed out of the track on countless occasions, only to be awarded 5 second penalties and loss of ranking back to DR D and SR B. The element that really bugged me was that the hot headed kids causing the damage proceeded to carry on without any penalty al all. How is that??

My goal was to start racing with SR S drivers, to escape the free for all, but the idiots were still there.

Forgive me for not reading all 84 pages of this thread, which will undoubtedly answered my question, but I just had to share my experience. I feel the pain of subscribers who have battled to attain a high ranking, only to have it taken away, at no fault of their own, by people who don't take it seriously and who should be playing COD, if all they want to do is cause mayhem.

 

[Rangeraus]

This one turned up in my feed. Seems like any side-to-side contact gets a penalty now, regardless of whether anyone goes off track.

I understand that it will never be perfect, but I really don't think this penalty system (introduced in last update) is an improvement over the previous one.



Here's another one that is inconsequential but ends up with a penalty (may have been posted already):

 

[breeminator]

I usually finish in the top 500 in the two time trials open to all.

However, yesterday must have been idiots day out. I was trying to drive cleanly, following the natural driving line and was smashed out of the track on countless occasions, only to be awarded 5 second penalties and loss of ranking back to DR D and SR B. The element that really bugged me was that the hot headed kids causing the damage proceeded to carry on without any penalty al all. How is that??

My goal was to start racing with SR S drivers, to escape the free for all, but the idiots were still there.

The penalty system is very poor at correctly assigning blame, but when you get to a higher DR, people mostly race reasonably cleanly, i.e. most people don't race with an attitude that they're going to push the limits of what the game would let them get away with. I've had some races where this hasn't been true, but they're outnumbered by races where it has been true. If you're in the world top 500 at the end of the time trials, I'd have thought you should have little difficulty largely qualifying on pole and driving away from everyone all the way up to A DR, and can possibly get to A+ DR. I've never done any of the time trials so don't know how competitive they are compared to daily race qualifying leaderboards, but world top 500 for daily race qualifying (at the end of the week) is typically A or A+ standard.

 

[jAMPiRATE]

Penalty zones should at the very least be off line

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Penalty zones should at the very least be off line

A fair, albeit unrealistic way to handle penalties, is to have penalty strips off the racing line and you have to press a button to serve the penalty or get 5 sec added if you don't. When you move off the line and press the button your car immediately halts for the amount of penalty time, then continues at the same speed as if nothing had happened. Ghost first of course, and only unghost when clear of other cars after the time is up.

It's really not much more unrealistic as it is now (cars slowing down on the track) while keeping the unpredictability to a minimum and make the penalty time consistent across all cars and tracks. Atm you can lose 8 sec from a 2 sec penalty on the Nordschleife while only losing 2 sec from a 5 sec penalty at Laguna Seca. No more cars getting up to speed before a braking zone then not knowing when to brake or slower cars unghosting in a braking zone.

That or use the pit to serve the penalty which would be the most elegant way. However on many tracks, cars coming out of the pit cause problems as well since PD won't enforce the pit exit lines. If the penalty must be served during the race, make it an instant stop and continue. Sure it's a bit jarring for the one serving the penalty, least interference for the ones not serving penalties.

 

[Jagman XK8]

The penalty system is very poor at correctly assigning blame, but when you get to a higher DR, people mostly race reasonably cleanly, i.e. most people don't race with an attitude that they're going to push the limits of what the game would let them get away with. I've had some races where this hasn't been true, but they're outnumbered by races where it has been true. If you're in the world top 500 at the end of the time trials, I'd have thought you should have little difficulty largely qualifying on pole and driving away from everyone all the way up to A DR, and can possibly get to A+ DR. I've never done any of the time trials so don't know how competitive they are compared to daily race qualifying leaderboards, but world top 500 for daily race qualifying (at the end of the week) is typically A or A+ standard.

I think the reason is that only approx. 12-16K people enter the time trials, so I probably sound better than I am!!

 

[fastone371]

I think the reason is that only approx. 12-16K people enter the time trials, so I probably sound better than I am!!

You still need to be on your game to hit the top 500, it isn't easy, well done!!

 

[cleanLX]

Have not competed online since March 13 2018, keep checking in here with hopes...

PD has clearly demonstrated that they can't figure out who is to blame, so equal blame is the only thing left.

Get rid of the penalty zones, they only create more problems, add the penalties at the end or a mandatory pit drive through in longer races.

Do these things, and...

It's an old bug, it has happened to me plenty times. ~ basically it can happen anywhere where the game resets cars on the racing track. There is a split second where the car appears solid before it ghosts.

simply eliminate hand of god and ghosting...

Then we are racing, not playing against gamers.

 

[NoStopN]

Granted, it can be a battlefield out there. At the lower levels, it's not so much dirty drivers, it's just a lack of experience dealing with people rather than the AI. At higher levels it's a combination of some dirty drivers and some that are just a bit too keen to try for a pass that was never an option.

I can vouch for the lower lobbies being filled with inexperienced drivers. I was there before, so I know that feeling of trying for moves that weren't an option.

Have not competed online since March 13 2018, keep checking in here with hopes...

Kinda sad, isn't it? It takes a hell of a lot to run me away from Laguna Seca, but somehow PD found a way.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

simply eliminate hand of god and ghosting...

Then we are racing, not playing against gamers.

You get so used to it when playing sport mode that when I do some GT League races I run into the AI that won't ghost after spinning out or sit at the edge of the track waiting to be reset on the track

Unfortunately without ghosting it would only entice the troublemakers more to take out half the field with a well aimed snooker strike or without resets not slow down at all for the chicanes at Sarthe for example.

Maybe GT Sport 2 can add meaning to SR tiers.

If you want to race in SR.S you need to have 3 consecutive contact free races to advance into SR.S while completing the race within a required time. (No doodling way behind or sitting the race out in the pit) In SR.S there will be no ghosting or resets, however 3 strikes and you're DQ and have to meet the requirements again to get back into SR.S

Harmless contact or leaving the track / touching a wall / needing to be ghosted will net you a warning.
The 3rd warning in the same race earns you one strike.
Hitting a car off road is an immediate strike.
Strikes carry over between races.
3rd strike and you get DQ (either in the same race or together with those carried over)
A clean contact free race can erase one strike.

You can do the same for SR.A, two contact free race within a lower required time to advance to SR.A
Same system yet you get 4 strikes before getting demoted to SR.B and 2 erased for a clean contact free race.

SR.B, one contact free race to enter, lower time again, 5 strikes, 3 erased for a clean contact free race.

SR.C, a race without any strikes to enter, 5 strikes, clean slate for a contact free race.

SR.D, lowest tier. (3 strikes is still DQ same for all tiers)

SR.E is optional to enter by choice, no DR will be exchanged, everything goes. Blow off steam here or practice without risking DR/SR.

No need for penalties during the race or SR ups and downs. At the end of the race add 0.5 sec for every warning and 5 sec for every strike earned.

Harmless contact is a warning for both drivers. Which leaves the problem of detecting who punts who off the track to give the correct driver a strike. Apparently this problem can't be solved by PD yet there have been plenty suggestions already to filter out the obvious cases. If there's doubt it could always be a warning for all the cars involved.

Also to add meaning to cleaner racing, separate out the victory count for each tier and increase the payouts for higher tiers.

Simple, easy to explain and keep track off on the race result screen, no more SR depending on track length, no more penalty zones, no more vastly mismatched matchmaking due to finish time requirements to advance higher in SR.

 

[pantherjag]

So if been following this thread since the update to the penalty system and seen many videos and clips of silly penaltys being handed out so I agree that the system is flawed in some way.

Thing is since the update iv done maybe 25-30 sport mode races and iv yet to fall victim to a dubious penalty or at least one I cant explain why i got it. Before the update and since it i very rarely picked up collision pens, I guess because I'm a very cautious and courteous driver.

Now of course no matter how careful you are it's very hard to avoid the general argy argy of racing and since the update iv had plenty of minor contacts with other cars similar to clips that iv seen dish out silly penaltys yet none have come my way.

This has led me to think that maybe there is some internal sportsmanship rating we dont see where if you have a recent history of getting penaltys you are more prone to getting contact penaltys that a driver who has gone 5-6 races without one. I'm sure I have read that if drivers of different DR ratings have an incident the higher rated driver is held to a higher standard so perhaps a similar system is in play. I'm just theorizing and have no evidence to back this except my own experience but it could explain some things. The game gets to a point with drivers where you have picked up so many pens that the slightest infringement will be punished until you show consistent good behaviour!!

No doubt next time I play il fall victim to a mystery 10 sec penalty and blow my theory out the water lol

 

[Redneckchef]

So if been following this thread since the update to the penalty system and seen many videos and clips of silly penaltys being handed out so I agree that the system is flawed in some way.

Thing is since the update iv done maybe 25-30 sport mode races and iv yet to fall victim to a dubious penalty or at least one I cant explain why i got it. Before the update and since it i very rarely picked up collision pens, I guess because I'm a very cautious and courteous driver.

Now of course no matter how careful you are it's very hard to avoid the general argy argy of racing and since the update iv had plenty of minor contacts with other cars similar to clips that iv seen dish out silly penaltys yet none have come my way.

This has led me to think that maybe there is some internal sportsmanship rating we dont see where if you have a recent history of getting penaltys you are more prone to getting contact penaltys that a driver who has gone 5-6 races without one. I'm sure I have read that if drivers of different DR ratings have an incident the higher rated driver is held to a higher standard so perhaps a similar system is in play. I'm just theorizing and have no evidence to back this except my own experience but it could explain some things. The game gets to a point with drivers where you have picked up so many pens that the slightest infringement will be punished until you show consistent good behaviour!!

No doubt next time I play il fall victim to a mystery 10 sec penalty and blow my theory out the water lol

I had several races after the update where I didnt see these penalties, then I started getting a few. Just wait. If you are lucky you will still avoid most but the slightest hint of contact from someone else who has lost control still seems to get you one. Someone spun exiting turn 1 at Fuji last night and I got 1 second as they had slightly nudged me entering the turn even though I left them room. They spin out as we get to 2nd gear, no contact then but I still got my penalty. Meanwhile 3 of us got punted on the hard right entering the nasty back section and the guy who bowled through us got nothing. It is really a bit of a crapshoot. Best luck I have is not being near any other cars

 

[Voodoovaj]

It wouldn't work, everyone would just start lifting to make the car behind tap them. We already have light damage in FIA races, you don't get any damage from a rear tap. It's easy to claim you have a simple solution when it isn't being put to the test.

Funny, it worked just fine when the game was released. Brake checks were, and still are, not an issue on the same scale as reckless driving.

The assumption is that the person/people responsible for the system are making good choices based on a sound system. The game industry, like any industry, has plenty of incompetent people in responsible positions.

A responsible person would have taken the feedback and example of the initial issues and resolved them. Instead, we get whole sale changes with no real idea why they were made or how the system works.


As for anything else I've stated, there's evidence that the components are already in place. We know there are at least 6 parts of the car that detect contact because the front, back, right front, left front, right rear, left rear show damage when impacted (and damage is on). Also, that shows that those parts can detect impact force because the degree of damage changes based on impact force.

There's numerous exampled of a car's orientation relative to the track can be detected (ghosting is just one example).

The system currently starts looking at a situation as soon as the first contact occurs.

So, create a table of base penalty values for contact for these six points, and then compare the orientation of cars. I guarantee that it will be far more accurate than the current AI solution.

 

[breeminator]

This has led me to think that maybe there is some internal sportsmanship rating we dont see where if you have a recent history of getting penaltys you are more prone to getting contact penaltys that a driver who has gone 5-6 races without one.

Interesting hypothesis. I've just seen an incident on a stream where I was surprised the person didn't get a penalty. Maybe it's not just recent penalties, maybe it internally records incidents, so you only get a penalty on the 2nd incident, even if the 1st was an incident that would have given you a penalty if you'd had a previous incident. So a yellow / red card type system, perhaps, with the yellow card disappearing after x sectors, something like that.

 

[Silent Drifter]

Racing today, and ended up hitting a guy in the back in the braking zone. Somehow, he got the penalty, and I didn't. Not sure how that happened.

 

[Krypton78]

Nothing what we write here does matter.
There is only 1 thing we can do that will hurt PD or/ and force them to overthink their "penalty system"

stop playing sportmode.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Racing today, and ended up hitting a guy in the back in the braking zone. Somehow, he got the penalty, and I didn't. Not sure how that happened.

It fits with the theory @breeminator posted with a little twist. There was contact, you lose a position within x seconds after the contact, therefore the other car gets a penalty.

Not always though, I got spun out by a diver who took the position while leaving me facing the wrong way and he didn't get a penalty. His nose hit my inside rear sending me into a spin. Perhaps lag forgiveness was involved, it was a yellow connection from the south, or the time is pretty short between contact and registering the loss of a position. It was already too short before where a punt in a long braking zone would go unpunished because it took a few seconds to end up in the gravel.

Actually I see people get away with a lot more stuff since the change. SR Downs without a penalty seem to be gone, contact without any position changes seems fine now.

 

[Groundfish]

Funny, it worked just fine when the game was released. Brake checks were, and still are, not an issue on the same scale as reckless driving.

The assumption is that the person/people responsible for the system are making good choices based on a sound system. The game industry, like any industry, has plenty of incompetent people in responsible positions.

A responsible person would have taken the feedback and example of the initial issues and resolved them. Instead, we get whole sale changes with no real idea why they were made or how the system works.


As for anything else I've stated, there's evidence that the components are already in place. We know there are at least 5 parts of the car that detect contact because the front, back, right front, left front, right rear, left rear show damage when impacted (and damage is on). Also, that shows that those parts can detect impact force because the degree of damage changes based on impact force.

There's numerous exampled of a car's orientation relative to the track can be detected (ghosting is just one example).

The system currently starts looking at a situation as soon as the first contact occurs.

So, create a table of base penalty values for contact for these six points, and then compare the orientation of cars. I guarantee that it will be far more accurate than the current AI solution.

Maybe it would be best for clean drivers to discuss the system, not those that have no etiquette!

 

[Jagman XK8]

A dirty day yesterday in G3 - B races at Interlagos.

Started as DR C / SR S and was shunted relentlessly by the angry young men brigade. Two ahead of me half way through and approaching turn 1 were all over the place trying to nudge the other off the track. It was quite comical to watch actually. By 4pm I was demoted back to DR D / SR B and having accumulated the penalties by being hit by others, I was pretty fed up with the whole thing.

Anyway, managed to bag a couple of 2nd places with no penalty and by close of play I was back to DR C / SR A.

I've seen comment on here regarding points value in connection with the ratings, yet I can see nothing within my profile or other sections which has a points value??

Happy new year all and thanks for the warm welcome I've received.

 

[BaareCZ]

I've seen comment on here regarding points value in connection with the ratings, yet I can see nothing within my profile or other sections which has a points value??

Check here. Enter your PSN ID. 👍
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=search
Happy new year to you too.

 

[Jagman XK8]

Check here. Enter your PSN ID. 👍
https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=search
Happy new year to you too.

That great and many thanks.

 

[watto79]

So I had this penalty given to me in the FIA race last night. At the time I was extremely frustrated but I've since had time to digest what happened and view the replay from all angles, so now have more rounded thoughts on it all.

Firstly I think the summary that @breeminator gave is spot on. The previous penalty system only gave a penalty for contact if it resulted in a car going off track. This was easy to exploit at slower corners where nudging your way past someone rarely resulted them going off track, so people would get away with barge passes. This new system is attempting to address that, but I don't think they've got it right yet and somehow broke some other things along the way.

Full context of this clip, myself and the PRST driver behind me have been P2/P3 for the entire race and are on our outlap from pitting. The car ahead hasn't pitted yet, not that they are involved in the incident. The PRST driver has been racing like a complete gentleman, been extremely patient and playing the long game not going for any silly moves allowing us to build a nice gap to the cars behind. I felt pretty sure they would get past me later on in the race and that was fine. On our outlap the PRST driver gets a better run through the degners and gets alongside me before the right hand kink. As we go through that corner we have the lightest of touches, and I get given a 6 second penalty. The penalty utterly ruined my race where I was in strong contention for a podium position as it dropped me back into the mid-pack scrap that was a nightmare.

Looking at what @breeminator has said, at first I didn't think it applied here as I was always in front. However on very close inspection it looks like the PRST driver just gets their nose in front just as we make contact before the hairpin where I naturally pull in front again because of the corner.

If the breeminator summary is correct I kinda don't mind too much and get it. What I don't get is how that translates to 6 seconds where I've seen people punting others into gravel and only getting 2-4 seconds of penalties. The severity should be the other way around.

It also lead me to think that the game obviously does detect who was ahead and behind at each point and awards the penalty accordingly. If so it should be possible to implement the system that I think iRacing uses where you are told to yield the position back to the other car. This would be much better and would represent what happens in a lot of real life motorsports.

While it's easy to blame the developers and call them incompetent I think it's always better to look at situations that happen and see what I could have done differently within the system that exists. The fact is the contact that happened was my fault and wasn't necessary. I was conscious to leave the PRST driver space at the apex, but I was off line and also conscious that I might run slightly wide on exit and put a wheel on the grass. I've both done this and seen it happen to others in practice lobbies. With that in mind I blip the throttle to make sure I don't run wide, resulting in my car biting into the apex much more than I expected resulting in the touch. This is something I'll be more aware of in the future.

Just to be clear, the PRST driver was in no way to blame. I commented to them in the post race chat and not sure they understood what I was saying. They did nothing wrong and I was looking forward to what would likely have been a really good battle, but that was taken away by an unusually harsh penalty.

 

[Hygrade B]

I can't believe PD haven't banned me yet, here I (in the silver MOLA GT-R) clearly ram the leader off at the final corner to take the win. The game acknowledges that I'm a terrible person with a 4s penalty which is enough to win by 0.2s

Lol all I can say, if I see you in the racing list, I will watch out if you are behind lol.

Just tested the ghost bug. It's still as before, car solidifies shortly between serving penalty and getting back up to speed.
The game played the colission sound and my speed dropped, followed by a penalty. Other car didn't feel a thing. Action != reaction.

Such incompetence. Get rid of the penalty zones, they only create more problems, add the penalties at the end or a mandatory pit drive through in longer races.

That cost 10 SR as well, 3 gained for the rest of the race, -7 over all to 92.

I said that and was told I should be racing in a full SIM game.
Every track has a pit so I don't see why the person at fault goes through the pit for its penalties & yes some innocent person will have to, but it's way better than on the track for many reasons.
Hell I would like to see more of the damage etc added but I stop my conversation right here.



Thanks admin. I couldn't get the two into one

 

[breeminator]

If the breeminator summary is correct I kinda don't mind too much and get it. What I don't get is how that translates to 6 seconds where I've seen people punting others into gravel and only getting 2-4 seconds of penalties. The severity should be the other way around.

It also lead me to think that the game obviously does detect who was ahead and behind at each point and awards the penalty accordingly. If so it should be possible to implement the system that I think iRacing uses where you are told to yield the position back to the other car. This would be much better and would represent what happens in a lot of real life motorsports.

I haven't been able to discern any logic in how the game decides the duration of penalty to impose, I've seen anything from 2 to 10 seconds for contact before passing, including 10 seconds for extremely light contact where a human would have assessed the penalty recipient as having done nothing wrong, and 2 seconds for a pretty blatant punt pass that most people would agree wasn't acceptable (but the punted car didn't leave the track, they were just punted well wide of the apex).

Project Cars 2 does the thing you describe where it tells you to give the place back, but the problem is in some situations it's not possible to do so, e.g. if you contact a car that is in the process of binning it. Ideally the game would have some concept of "loss of control" that it detects prior to contact, and it absolves the other car of blame. However, if the punishment for not giving the place back was just the time penalty the game currently gives you, we'd be better off than with how things currently are. Obviously it's more coding work to provide those on-screen messages, set a timer going, detect the place being given back and cancel the timer, or impose a penalty when the timer expires, compared to just giving a penalty as it currently does.

 

[VulcanSpirit]

If the breeminator summary is correct I kinda don't mind too much and get it. What I don't get is how that translates to 6 seconds where I've seen people punting others into gravel and only getting 2-4 seconds of penalties. The severity should be the other way around.

It also lead me to think that the game obviously does detect who was ahead and behind at each point and awards the penalty accordingly...

While it's easy to blame the developers and call them incompetent I think it's always better to look at situations that happen and see what I could have done differently within the system that exists. The fact is the contact that happened was my fault and wasn't necessary. I was conscious to leave the PRST driver space at the apex, but I was off line and also conscious that I might run slightly wide on exit and put a wheel on the grass. I've both done this and seen it happen to others in practice lobbies. With that in mind I blip the throttle to make sure I don't run wide, resulting in my car biting into the apex much more than I expected resulting in the touch. This is something I'll be more aware of in the future.

After seeing your and @Lion-Face's posts, it does seem to me like Polyphony are genuinely trying to deter people from dive-bombing or pushing others out to the side, but the system in its latest state can't reliably assess lighter or more benign forms of side-by-side contact. As the contact in both instances didn't seem to greatly affect either car involved, I'd say that an orange SR arrow would've been a more appropriate form of discipline.