PENALTY SYSTEM IS STILL A PIECE OF ****!!!

Dorofint
PD is a Japanese developer. We do not know what influence the Japanese racing community has on PD. Perhaps the driving there is very different and the system adapted to these players. Maybe we are just the mellow foreigners who complain about nothing.
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So you think it's possible that when an over zealous late braker punts the car in front of him into the kitty little that the car in the kitty litter deserves a penalty????? Possibly for not getting out of the "low flying missles" way????
 
Maybe the penalty system doesn't understand trailbraking?

Maybe it's trying to enforce no movement in a braking zone which falls down when you trailbrake and touch side by side?

I dunno, this penalty system as it is is so demoralising.

At least if it was consistently wrong you could work around it.
 
From the selection of races I did months ago on an alternative account before I had my own console, I come back and do a few more races of my own, only to finally get bitten badly by the penalty system today.

Race C at Laguna Seca, in 7th place; 4th, 5th and 6th are ahead battling each other to overtake one another. Here comes the corkscrew; the player in 4th place loses control of their car pretty badly according to the map, I'm just now braking to slow down for entry into the corkscrew when all of a sudden, said player who lost control of their car gets placed back on the course, right as I was hitting the apex of the corkscrew, and for some reason, the player's collision box was still active (they were not ghosted; normally the game will ghost your car's collision box if it places you back on the course for 3-5 seconds to make sure that no oncoming drivers make contact with you and wipe themselves out from being reset).

So as a result the game places the player right in front of me, collision box still active, I make contact, and endure a two second penalty. Said player who was affected by this thought my action was intentional, and was trying to take me out for the remainder of the race when in reality, there was absolutely nothing I could do in my position to have prevented the incident from happening. I get the penalty and constantly antagonized by that player and dropped from 6th to 11th. Really unfortunate circumstances, but what can you do? You're caught in a battle between other players and then the game decides to place a car back on the course right in front of you, collision box still active.
 
elston87
From the selection of races I did months ago on an alternative account before I had my own console, I come back and do a few more races of my own, only to finally get bitten badly by the penalty system today.

Race C at Laguna Seca, in 7th place; 4th, 5th and 6th are ahead battling each other to overtake one another. Here comes the corkscrew; the player in 4th place loses control of their car pretty badly according to the map, I'm just now braking to slow down for entry into the corkscrew when all of a sudden, said player who lost control of their car gets placed back on the course, right as I was hitting the apex of the corkscrew, and for some reason, the player's collision box was still active (they were not ghosted; normally the game will ghost your car's collision box if it places you back on the course for 3-5 seconds to make sure that no oncoming drivers make contact with you and wipe themselves out from being reset).

So as a result the game places the player right in front of me, collision box still active, I make contact, and endure a two second penalty. Said player who was affected by this thought my action was intentional, and was trying to take me out for the remainder of the race when in reality, there was absolutely nothing I could do in my position to have prevented the incident from happening. I get the penalty and constantly antagonized by that player and dropped from 6th to 11th. Really unfortunate circumstances, but what can you do? You're caught in a battle between other players and then the game decides to place a car back on the course right in front of you, collision box still active.
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It's an old bug, it has happened to me plenty times. At Big Willow in the final turn, Sarthe at Mulsanne, basically it can happen anywhere where the game resets cars on the racing track. There is a split second where the car appears solid before it ghosts. It's a stupid bug, place car first, then ghost... It can happen at the penalty zone as well. Right at the end of the timer countdown the car will be solid for a slit second before it ghosts again for going too slow. Never drive through ghosts of course yet sometimes they form a blockade serving penalties side by side.

It's simple incompetency, ghost first then place, stay ghosted until all conditions to ghost are cleared. A 10 year old could program that better. Also don't reset cars on the racing line in the middle of a corner, just stupid. Especially at Big Willow it makes me jump every time.

This goes right with the yellow flag penalty for overtaking a car serving a penalty...
 
jAMPiRATE
Maybe the penalty system doesn't understand trailbraking?

Maybe it's trying to enforce no movement in a braking zone which falls down when you trailbrake and touch side by side?

I dunno, this penalty system as it is is so demoralising.

At least if it was consistently wrong you could work around it.
Click to expand...

The system doesn't "understand" anything nor should it. It needs to follow simple rules that can be detected may ways.
 
Sven Jurgens
It's simple incompetency, ghost first then place, stay ghosted until all conditions to ghost are cleared. A 10 year old could program that better. Also don't reset cars on the racing line in the middle of a corner, just stupid. Especially at Big Willow it makes me jump every time.

This goes right with the yellow flag penalty for overtaking a car serving a penalty...
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You give Polyphony a lot of credit with the penalty system, I think a group of kindergartners could do a much better job.:cheers::lol::lol:
 
Voodoovaj
The system doesn't "understand" anything nor should it. It needs to follow simple rules that can be detected may ways.
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No, I know. That's my point.

If it was doing a dumb "are wheels straight in the braking zone" check then it wouldn't understand trailbraking.

I'm well aware the system is not sentient and so not going to actually understand anything! :lol:
 
Consider this. Since the update, I have seen several examples of extreme dive bombers being ghosted and passing through other cars. So, they can do something, they simply haven't chosen to.
 
Lion-Face


The clip of me reviewing my replay of my penalty on stream that @VulcanSpirit referred to. Just weird. Don't want to see any more of that...
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I have a hypothesis about a change that has been made to the penalty system. I've now seen multiple examples that are consistent with my hypothesis. I'm just not sure if I should explain on here how I think this element works, as it would be very easy for people to exploit if they knew what the rule is that it's using. What do people think? Better for everyone to know what the rule is that is being applied, even if some players will then just exploit it? Or better for me to keep it to myself?

Edit: okay, what the heck, I see from Kie's stream that other people are figuring it out anyway. I believe the algorithm is:
1. Contact detected between two cars - record which car is ahead.
2. Wait for x seconds.
3. If the positions of the two cars are now reversed from what was recorded in 1, give a penalty to the car that was behind but became ahead after the contact.

Kie just got a 10 second penalty for this. If you want to avoid receiving this penalty, you must immediately give the place back if you contact a car with your nose behind their nose then move ahead of them.
 
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breeminator
Kie just got a 10 second penalty for this. If you want to avoid receiving this penalty, you must immediately give the place back if you contact a car with your nose behind their nose then move ahead of them.
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The big problem, and that's being very well reported here, is when someone is out of control and touches you. The out of control car is probably leaving the track already, or spinning whatsoever, and it's kinda impossible to give the position back unless you just stop on track (which gives you a penalty as well).

Anyway, PD HAS TO WORK ON THE SYSTEM
 
Lots of crappy penalties were handed out today in my races. Both too meak to the real offenders and others just plain wrong. Didn't remember to save vids of the worst ones but here's two situations from my last race today.

Guy has bad tires and is all over the place, he goes wide and I take the inside, but he doesn't let go and goes out so I am rewarded 2 sec:


I serve the penalty and catch up again. Make another pass and he the rams me off the moment after. He gets 3 sec and even rams another car before serving it and gets no additional penalty. I had a chance to win this but this fella took it away. And since it's so many laps he walked away with a white SR S. Good game.
 
I had initially thought PD had just mistakenly rolled back to a previous **** version of the penalty system.

That was completely wrong. The system is now a complete farce.

There are many examples of this new ****. You're being gifted 10s penaltys from players not even bothering to brake for corners if all they do is graze you on the way past. How is this not obviously wrong?
 
How is SR for a race calculated? If you start a race on SR 99 and get clean SR throughout but then hit someone at the end, does your SR go down?
Like all your good SR doesn't count because it won't let you over 99 and then the bad SR sticks.

Or does it add it all up separately from your overall rating and then apply it?
 
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Why does anyone still race with this stupid new penalty system ? Proper Racing is not possible anymore, for example:

The system is now perfect for those drivers who, rather than defend their line into a corner to avoid being overtaken, instead leave the door wide open for an overtake, then do a panic turn in too late in a stupid attempt to stop the overtaking car passing them. Now they get rewarded with a PD logic penalty for the innocent overtaker, for daring to race in a racing game. In this situation, the driver doing the overtaking has been turned in on during the overtake and is left with a 4 to 6 second penalty!

Good grief, who thought this was a good idea ?

Are we expected to just put up with this and shut up, except for in this thread on gt planet that will probably not be read by PD?
 
John G
How is SR for a race calculated? If you start a race on SR 99 and get clean SR throughout but then hit someone at the end, does your SR go down?
Like all your good SR doesn't count because it won't let you over 99 and then the bad SR sticks.

Or does it add it all up separately from your overall rating and then apply it?
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No, that's not how it works. Hitting someone easily costs you 10 SR and since race A and B are worth less for a clean race you end up with a red rating regardless. Race A is only worth 4 SR this week for a contact free clean race. I had a 1 sec penalty on my first attempt and went from 99 to 92 SR, then a CRB on my second attempt and went from 92 to 96 SR. In the first race I also scraped the walls a couple time so probably only earned 3 SR from SR ups, -10 SR for the penalty, -7 SR for the race.

SR Down arrow costs you 3 SR.
Contact where the other car gets SR Down costs you 1 SR.
Contact where the other car gets a penalty costs you nothing.
Contact where you get a penalty costs you 10 SR
An SR up arrow (for a clean sector) is worth about 0.4 to 0.5 SR depending on the track.
 
breeminator
I have a hypothesis about a change that has been made to the penalty system. I've now seen multiple examples that are consistent with my hypothesis. I'm just not sure if I should explain on here how I think this element works, as it would be very easy for people to exploit if they knew what the rule is that it's using. What do people think? Better for everyone to know what the rule is that is being applied, even if some players will then just exploit it? Or better for me to keep it to myself?

Edit: okay, what the heck, I see from Kie's stream that other people are figuring it out anyway. I believe the algorithm is:
1. Contact detected between two cars - record which car is ahead.
2. Wait for x seconds.
3. If the positions of the two cars are now reversed from what was recorded in 1, give a penalty to the car that was behind but became ahead after the contact.

Kie just got a 10 second penalty for this. If you want to avoid receiving this penalty, you must immediately give the place back if you contact a car with your nose behind their nose then move ahead of them.
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Dope. So now the new cheese strat will be to bump the car that's overtaking you to force them into a penalty to take the position back.
This happened to me yesterday at Interlagos. Exactly the same steps played out and I received the 2s penalty.

 
Cool. Maybe we should all quit trying to race according to real world logic and instead focus on playing the game according to its rules.. I'm glad there a few people working these things out. Would be so much easier to comply though if PD them selves told us their rules

:)
 
True story: Honda tried for many years to win a World Super-bike Title but kept losing to Ducati. Honda attacked the problem with tech, tech, and more tech. Ducati approached the problem with simple solutions. Honda FINALLY threw up their hands and, essentially, built a better Ducati. That was the iconic RC51 that won TONS of series and events.Simple, bullet proof, and to this day, 20 years later, still sought after. They still make great track bikes.

There are many, many examples like this where a super technical solution is outperformed by a straight forward solution. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

PD is employing AI where no "AI" is necessary. Where is the core information for this "AI" to draw from? For an AI solution to even work, it has to built upon a robust system that, in essence, doesn't need AI in 99% of the cases. Their AI solution doesn't work because there is no decent system of rules underpinning it.


I was reading about Howard Hughes and how terrible of a manager and business man he was, contrary to the public persona. Seeing as the turn 10 team can put out Forza at a rate double of GT, I am going to accuse Kaz and PD of being Hughes like. No plan. No foresight. I think GT gets made in spite of Kaz, not because of him, and whenever he gets involved, things go sideways.

I bet he's been very involved with the penalty system.

Underthewhip
Cool. Maybe we should all quit trying to race according to real world logic and instead focus on playing the game according to its rules.. I'm glad there a few people working these things out. Would be so much easier to comply though if PD them selves told us their rules

:)
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That's the problem now, isn't it. There are no rules.

I cam up with a rule set the other day off the top of my head. Granted, I have experience doing that kind of thing, but those guys are supposedly professionals as well. How can we be two years into this fiasco and they still haven't created an easily understandable base rule system?
 
Underthewhip
Cool. Maybe we should all quit trying to race according to real world logic and instead focus on playing the game according to its rules.. I'm glad there a few people working these things out. Would be so much easier to comply though if PD them selves told us their rules

:)
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That's exactly what many players do. They don't play GTS according to the original rules of the sport but according to the faulty rules of the penalty system. It is precisely these differences between these two groups that cause so much annoyance. That's why I was so often referred to as a sissy and a failure when I complained after a ram or divebomb. These players play according to different rules and for them I am the failure who does not comply with their rules.
 
Just tested the ghost bug. It's still as before, car solidifies shortly between serving penalty and getting back up to speed.
The game played the colission sound and my speed dropped, followed by a penalty. Other car didn't feel a thing. Action != reaction.
uFb1Hzj.gif

Such incompetence. Get rid of the penalty zones, they only create more problems, add the penalties at the end or a mandatory pit drive through in longer races.

That cost 10 SR as well, 3 gained for the rest of the race, -7 over all to 92.
 
Voodoovaj
True story: Honda tried for many years to win a World Super-bike Title but kept losing to Ducati. Honda attacked the problem with tech, tech, and more tech. Ducati approached the problem with simple solutions. Honda FINALLY threw up their hands and, essentially, built a better Ducati. That was the iconic RC51 that won TONS of series and events.Simple, bullet proof, and to this day, 20 years later, still sought after. They still make great track bikes.

There are many, many examples like this where a super technical solution is outperformed by a straight forward solution. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

PD is employing AI where no "AI" is necessary. Where is the core information for this "AI" to draw from? For an AI solution to even work, it has to built upon a robust system that, in essence, doesn't need AI in 99% of the cases. Their AI solution doesn't work because there is no decent system of rules underpinning it.


I was reading about Howard Hughes and how terrible of a manager and business man he was, contrary to the public persona. Seeing as the turn 10 team can put out Forza at a rate double of GT, I am going to accuse Kaz and PD of being Hughes like. No plan. No foresight. I think GT gets made in spite of Kaz, not because of him, and whenever he gets involved, things go sideways.

I bet he's been very involved with the penalty system.



That's the problem now, isn't it. There are no rules.

I cam up with a rule set the other day off the top of my head. Granted, I have experience doing that kind of thing, but those guys are supposedly professionals as well. How can we be two years into this fiasco and they still haven't created an easily understandable base rule system?
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You're right. The basic rules with which one can evaluate 90% or 95% of the cases are missing. This alone would improve the system enormously. The developers can still use AI for the remaining 5% or 10%.
 
Dorofint
You're right. The basic rules with which one can evaluate 90% or 95% of the cases are missing. This alone would improve the system enormously. The developers can still use AI for the remaining 5% or 10%.
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Let's take the brake check as an example, because it seems to be something they focus a disproportionate amount of attention on.

Their system: Check (who knows what they are checking). Improperly penalize the guy in front MOST of the time. Also, decrease that person's SR so they learn to .... I don't know what you learn from this :P

Simple system: Front hits back. Penalize guy in back proportional to the impact force. Also, turn on light damage. I guarantee that VERY few people will intentionally brake check someone if they risk losing time to damage. This would see far more accurate penalties.

The only reason that simple solution sucked before was because if you even slightly touched the car in front, you got a race ending penalty. It was unnecessary. light touch = 0-1 second. More than that that should get more and damage. Keep it simple.


Here PD - read this https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
 
Sven Jurgens
Just tested the ghost bug. It's still as before, car solidifies shortly between serving penalty and getting back up to speed.
The game played the colission sound and my speed dropped, followed by a penalty. Other car didn't feel a thing. Action != reaction.
uFb1Hzj.gif

Such incompetence. Get rid of the penalty zones, they only create more problems, add the penalties at the end or a mandatory pit drive through in longer races.

That cost 10 SR as well, 3 gained for the rest of the race, -7 over all to 92.
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Same scenario cost me DR/SR in a B race yesterday and a C race I ran at Laguna Seca on Sunday evening. Adding penalty time at the end of the race or a drive thru penalty if it's a C race and a drive thru is a "punishment suitable for the crime", is the only way penalty time should be done in GTS. These penalty zones are just dumb and they cause problems.
 
Sven Jurgens
Just tested the ghost bug. It's still as before, car solidifies shortly between serving penalty and getting back up to speed.
The game played the colission sound and my speed dropped, followed by a penalty. Other car didn't feel a thing. Action != reaction.
uFb1Hzj.gif

Such incompetence. Get rid of the penalty zones, they only create more problems, add the penalties at the end or a mandatory pit drive through in longer races.

That cost 10 SR as well, 3 gained for the rest of the race, -7 over all to 92.
Click to expand...

I don't think the penalty zones are fundamentally bad. It's not really their concept that is really bad, but their execution in GTS. By that I mean the time delay until ghosting. But I also mean the placement of the zones. Sven has already mentioned all of this. You could also expand the system so that a penalty is only paid if you leave the ideal line. If you don't do this you e.g. get one extra second penalty with each lap you don't do it. If you implement the system with the penalty zones optimally it would not be that bad but PD did not think the whole concept through at all. I really have the impression in the system of penalties that one crude quick shot follows the next. Nobody from PD has ever worked out a coherent concept.
 

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