Penny Dreadful - Currency Discussion

[Pupik]

This is what to fall back to? Really? All of your responses from now on will be viewed in the context of petulant snivelling child.

Yes, talking down to other members is not at all encouraged at GTPlanet. The AUP is not being used as an argument, it's been mentioned because it is part of the rules that govern the entire forum.

Consider this as a warning to knock it off.

 

[Barra333]

Pennies are more trouble than they are worth. Very happy I am in a place that has done away with them. Seriously screws me when I travel elsewhere in the eurozone though. Last week in Austria I bought something for x.47, saw the display and handed over x.45 and started to walk off. Oops.

I say get rid of it, it is not logical to make something that costs double of what it is worth.

As for rounding, Australia has been doing it for years and the country has not fallen apart cause of it.
A product is $3.93 you have to pay $3.95, Oh no the world will end since you had to pay 2c more
A product is $3.92 you have to pay $3.90, Oh no the world will end since you had to pay 2c less

There is also the debit/keycard option where you pay the exact amount.

This. Actual prices changed very little. If anything, products that were x.99 are now x.95. Grocery items will always be bizarre amounts, but they add up to a total rounding of +/- 1 or 2 cents at the checkout anyway.

Allegedly they are cheaper to produce, but not at first.

Primarily, they are more counterfeit preventative than cotton-linen, whilst not being perfectly counterfeit preventative. And, crucially, they last much longer, which will save on production costs.

I've not felt many polymer notes, possibly a few Brazilian and Thai notes, so I don't have a great idea how they feel. Tactile sensation can play a big part with banknotes.

Polymer notes still feel like money. They are textured as part of the security features.

 

[Grayfox]

Pennies are more trouble than they are worth. Very happy I am in a place that has done away with them. Seriously screws me when I travel elsewhere in the eurozone though. Last week in Austria I bought something for x.47, saw the display and handed over x.45 and started to walk off. Oops.

This. Actual prices changed very little. If anything, products that were x.99 are now x.95. Grocery items will always be bizarre amounts, but they add up to a total rounding of +/- 1 or 2 cents at the checkout anyway.

If something was x.99 it would end up being x.00

 

[Barra333]

Yes, but I think the labeled price of lots of products went from x.99 to x.95, so that the real cash price stayed at x.95, instead of x+1 as is the case for x.99

 

[Imari]

Polymer notes still feel like money. They are textured as part of the security features.

@Liquid They feel pretty weird still when they're crisp and fresh, but once they wear in they're not horribly dissimilar to what a paper banknotes made of slightly heavier paper might feel like.

 

[Liquid]

Well I must say I didn't think a thread on the penny debate evolving into a general discussion of currency would end up with Danoff being called a liberal.

Anyway, another point I've read lately; it is odd that the United States is the only banknote producing country in the world which does not produce its banknotes in different sizes depending on denominations.

Accusations that this is unfavourable to the blind have been reported. (Link - American Council For The Blind vs. Paulson) Subsequently, the United States has begun to redesign its notes, with raised text on some notes but not resizing them.

The more I look into it, the more it seems that the United States is... hmm, what's the term? not stubborn, but very... set in its ways and strives to maintain the status quo with its banknote production.

@Imari @Barra333 Thanks for the info on polymers.

 

[Dotini]

There is only so much that can be said about the innocuous penny before conversation inevitably drifts into, um, larger denominations.

Anyway, I heard a story about the penny on the radio a few years ago.
It seems a man in Chicago became convinced that one day the US government would cease production of the penny and remove it from circulation. Apparently law currently forbids the melting down of coins for the metallic value, and the removal of US currency across borders except in small amounts. So the Chicagoan began purchasing pennies from local area banks. He would sort through the pennies, as apparently they vary in copper content. The pennies with less copper he would sell back to other banks, and keep the high copper content pennies in his garage until the day comes when he can legally melt and sell the copper.

I currently have 25.4 lbs of pennies collected in 3 jars. I have no idea what they are worth, either as specie or as copper!

 

[LancerEvo7]

The pennies with less copper he would sell back to other banks, and keep the high copper content pennies in his garage until the day comes when he can legally melt and sell the copper.

I do this too. Pennies from 1981 or earlier are worth around 2 cents each from copper, ones from 1983 or later are worthless for the time being, and ones from 1982 can go either way, you can determine which way by weighing them.

 

[Liquid]

*snip*

I doubt they'd ever allow melting down of old pennies, even if they were demonetised. Lest we forget, we are talking about the same system which forbade the private ownership of gold from 1933-1971 (Executive Order 6102).

You can bet your arse they'll demonetise the penny but include a sneaky clause saying they're still not allowed to be melted down because of some ludicrous rule about them being Treasury or Federal property.

/tinhat

 

[Barra333]

You can bet your arse they'll demonetise the penny but include a sneaky clause saying they're still not allowed to be melted down because of some ludicrous rule about them being Treasury or Federal property.

/tinhat

I left my tin hat at home today and still think that melting pennies will never be legal.

 

[Liquid]

Getting them flattened by a train is much more fun anyway.

 

[BobK]

You can bet your arse they'll demonetise the penny but include a sneaky clause saying they're still not allowed to be melted down because of some ludicrous rule about them being Treasury or Federal property.

/tinhat

Actually the US has never demonetized any coinage with the single exception of the Trade Dollar

which was not intended for domestic use, and later re-monetized it anyway.

If you have a US half cent, two cent piece or half dime and are foolish enough to spend it, it's still legal tender.

 

[Liquid]

True, the other coins were simply discontinued but I did state that it was in the event that the penny was demonetised.

It's a big if, but still a possibility.

 

[BobK]

To be honest I could never understand why governments demonetized coinage anyway. For example, Great Britain stopped minting the farthing in 1956, and demonetized it in 1960. I can understand why they discontinued it, but why demonetize it?

In the case of GB's shift from the pound-shilling-pence system to decimal coinage, it makes sense since the entire coinage system is being replaced with another.

 

[Liquid]

Well, the farthing (1/4 of a penny for those who might not know) had reached a point in its life where it was so underused and worthless that it was pointless even having it as legal currency.

Obviously, I am only 22 and can't relate my own experiences but a lot of stories of things such as bus conductors refusing 8 farthings for a bus fare of 2p hastened its withdrawal and I'd guess that there was simply no reason for it to remain usable; you couldn't use it for anything.

Can't say either way whether I agree with it.

The most recent demonetisations of the Pound Sterling include the crown in 1990; it was in fact remonetised to be worth five pounds instead of 25p and the old style 5p, 10p and 50p coins. They were resized in 1992 and the older, larger coins are not accepted as currency anymore.

Banknotes are not demonetised, but withdrawn and are always accepted by the Bank of England for their current equivalents. But I wonder if I can actually cash in banknotes representing a demonetised denomination. Obviously we still have denominations of £5, £10, £20 and £50 but I wonder if I could cash in one of my 10 shilling notes for its current equivalent of 50p? Not that I would, just whether I could.

 

[Danoff]

If something was x.99 it would end up being x.00

Probably not.

It's .99 in order to change the first digit. The seller would likely choose .95 (and possibly short change you 4 cents worth of product if that makes sense) in order to keep the first digit from rolling over.

 

[Mikeybc]

I currently have 25.4 lbs of pennies collected in 3 jars. I have no idea what they are worth, either as specie or as copper!

About $46.08 assuming each penny is 2.5 grams. I'm bored

 

[Liquid]

Ah, it depends on what year the pennies are. Before 1982, 95% copper. And since 1982 US pennies are 97.5% zinc and just 2.5% copper.

Would take an awful long time to work that out...

 

[BobK]

About $46.08 assuming each penny is 2.5 grams. I'm bored

If they only weigh 2.5gm then they're not copper, they're zinc.

1982 is the fun year; that year the Mint made both copper and zinc cents.

@Dotini, your jars of pennies would be worth between about thirty-seven and forty-six dollars face value depending on how many of which composition.

 

[Dotini]

If they only weigh 2.5gm then they're not copper, they're zinc.

1982 is the fun year; that year the Mint made both copper and zinc cents.

@Dotini, your jars of pennies would be worth between about thirty-seven and forty-six dollars face value depending on how many of which composition.

How many would I have to sample to know with high confidence?

 

[LancerEvo7]

From data I've seen online and personal experience, you can assume that 1 in 4 is copper.

 

[BobK]

My independent survey confirms @LancerEvo7's figures exactly; I have four cents in my pocket change three of which are zinc and one of which is copper. Given that the weight of a copper cent is 3.1 grams and a zinc one is 2.5 grams, I'll leave the arithmetic to you.

As far as a statistical analysis goes, one huge variable would be how old the jars are (or pedantically, how long you've been throwing pennies into them). For that matter it would depend on where you take your sample(s) from; top of the jar or bottom of the jar. In other words, I haven't a clue.

 

[LancerEvo7]

Here's my raw statistics from keeping track of coins I get. I collect coins and find it interesting to see the trends.

 

[Liquid]

Right, so this isn't worthy of its own thread and is somewhat related to this one.

As @Dotini has mentioned, he has some bullion coins (Krugerrands) and I myself have one or two minor bullion coins. These are nominal currency and in practice an investment in precious metals. But given that oil is something almost guaranteed to increase in price both nominally and adjusted for inflation, would it be feasible to buy an actual barrel of oil as an investment?

Just a curious thought I had. Might be too farfetched.

 

[Dotini]

Right, so this isn't worthy of its own thread and is somewhat related to this one.

As @Dotini has mentioned, he has some bullion coins (Krugerrands) and I myself have one or two minor bullion coins. These are nominal currency and in practice an investment in precious metals. But given that oil is something almost guaranteed to increase in price both nominally and adjusted for inflation, would it be feasible to buy an actual barrel of oil as an investment?

Just a curious thought I had. Might be too farfetched.

Barrels of oil are not too practical to store and transport.
I had a friend who, at the 1973 oil crisis, purchased and stored three 55 gallon barrels of gasoline at the bottom of a pit in his garage. My friend is passed away, but the barrels are still there, undoubtedly spoiled, rusting and maybe leaking!

A better investment might be artwork (of known provenance) that you can enjoy during your lifetime, and sell if you need to.

 

[Danoff]

Right, so this isn't worthy of its own thread and is somewhat related to this one.

As @Dotini has mentioned, he has some bullion coins (Krugerrands) and I myself have one or two minor bullion coins. These are nominal currency and in practice an investment in precious metals. But given that oil is something almost guaranteed to increase in price both nominally and adjusted for inflation, would it be feasible to buy an actual barrel of oil as an investment?

Just a curious thought I had. Might be too farfetched.

If you want to buy oil, the best way to do that is the commodities exchange. Just sell as required and re-buy (to avoid having oil delivered to your house). Ultimately you'll need to cash out and buy something else if you're investing for the apocalypse, but if you'er just looking to invest in commodities that you expect to go up in value, the exchange is the place to do it.

I imagine Greece has one, but you can also buy and sell in the US commodities exchange as well - though I don't know what the international implications are of moving the money.

 

[Wiegert]

So the £1 coin is getting a redesign that will enter circulation in 2017. The aim? To curb counterfeiting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26632863

Given the estimated cost of introducing a more resilient coin and the number of fake Pound coins unwittingly changing hands in the UK, it certainly seems like a worthwhile move. The bi-metallic ring/centre and 12-sided Threepenny shape is far more characterful than the current brass coin.

 

[Liquid]

"Here's the budget, BLAH BLAH TORY CUT BLAH WHISPER WHISPER, and look, magpies, a shiny NEW COIN!"

I actually like the current £1 coin, but 30+ years is enough time for a change.

 

[TenEightyOne]

"Here's the budget, BLAH BLAH TORY CUT BLAH WHISPER WHISPER, and look, magpies, a shiny NEW COIN!"

I actually like the current £1 coin, but 30+ years is enough time for a change.

"Don't look at the spending LOOK AT THE COIN... look at the coin... shiny coin...looking at the coin?"

...and poof, the local hospital's gone.

EDIT: Spoof story at the Daily Mash;New pound coin provokes tiresome pensioner nostalgia.

 

[Pupik]

Wonder if it will have the thistles on it like the three-pence coins did. Maybe not, have a few of them in my collection...defiantly a unique thickness and shape.