Petrol V's Diesel

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Having recently owned both diesel and petrol i can say that my old 1.8 TD Mondy gave me no better milage then my current (and not known for it's frugality) 2.0 Forester.

Performance figures aside, a petrol engine offers a more pleasing driving experience than a diesel. The lack of torque available very low down in the rev range means that TD engined cars can often be irritating to hustle around.
 
G.T
I'd actually like to see you achieve that figure and above, unless you are going 50/60mph constantly, and even then it's a push.

I know from experience with the parents' Honda Civic 2.2 TDCI (which has one of the best or not THE best economy in its class - claimed 42.8/65.7/55.4mpg on Urban, Extra Urban and Balanced driving) that the figures are no where near as accurate. The best possible we have managed is 54mpg, 6th gear at around 50mph on country loads - it becomes less efficient going faster or slower than that. Motorway it's around 48mpg. The car has nearly 10,000 miles on it, so it has had its "run in" stage now - the economy started increasing a couple 1000 miles ago. I'd only expect the Mondeo to be a little worse as it is a larger car.

My Uncle's new-gen VW Passat 2.0 TDI only at best gets around 47mpg

I'm not expecting to get 55mpg but I know that it will be very close to it. I use a company Vauxhall Corsa TDCI which is only 1.3 and I get 50mpg most of the time but that has a far smaller engine.

I used to be a petrol head, but as diesels have progressed it just doesn't make sense financially for me to purchase a petrol car if I can get the same model with a good diesel engine. The fact that the turbo charged Mondeo is faster than the petrol V6 is just a bonus.

I do above an above average amount of mileage, somewhere around 20-25,000 miles a year. That's the only reason I would choose a diesel at this stage. If I ever get a new job where I don't have to use my car for work I will buy a petrol engined car.
 
*snip*

Shut up I drive these almost everyday. :grumpy:
And I ride them almost every weekend, but if you find the sound of diesel buses pleasing you have some serious problems, or perhaps you're deaf and just enjoy the feel of the base.

But anyway, my family has recentley replaced the Previa (Don't worry it's not gone gone, I will get a body kit on it) with a Xsara Picasso 2.0 TD and when I first heard it pull up on the drive I honestly thought one of my mates had sent another prank Taxi to my house. It may just be one of those things where it's not actually a bad sound, it's just what you associate it with. Sort of like My Chemical Romance.

That's it, Diesels are like My Chemical Romance.

Not always true in America.
Hasn't always been true here either, but as more and more people have made the change the price has slowly crept up and overtaken petrol costs. Only by a few pence a litre, but a difference still.

Although it was tongue in cheek, this is now war!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JCB_Dieselmax
Oh no, bitter memories of Pic Battle Thread!!
 
Hasn't always been true here either, but as more and more people have made the change the price has slowly crept up and overtaken petrol costs. Only by a few pence a litre, but a difference still.
That's not exactly what I meant. Diesel costs in America fluctuate by what seems to be a random curve. In one town diesel may be cheaper than regular, and in the next town diesel costs as much as premium. And then there are times where they price it based on fuel content, and there are times where they price it based on refinement costs. Currently in my town diesel is 3 cents cheaper than regular. Last month it was in between regular and premium.
 
Petrol. I'm sorry, but after 5 years of being driven in a diesel, I just can't stand them any longer. I actually wept with happiness when it went in for a service and we got a 1.8 Astra as a hire car. An Astra. That's what diesels have done to me.

There's a lot to be said for the economy of diesels, but there's also a lot to be said for the considerably lower cost of petrol models. Of course, it depends on the car. I'd never buy a Range Rover petrol unless I lived in Texas, and even then I'd be debating it. And, some models just have crap engine combinations. On our 2002 Freelander, we had the choice of a wheazy 1.8 which has been manufactured by Rover since the dawn of time, a 2.0 diesel from a BMW 3 Series, or a 2.5V6 petrol that would have cost the earth to buy and run. Diesel it is, then. That's not to say I don't loathe it of course...
 
That's not exactly what I meant. Diesel costs in America fluctuate by what seems to be a random curve. In one town diesel may be cheaper than regular, and in the next town diesel costs as much as premium. And then there are times where they price it based on fuel content, and there are times where they price it based on refinement costs. Currently in my town diesel is 3 cents cheaper than regular. Last month it was in between regular and premium.

Same over here. Diesel varies between being 1p a litre cheaper than "regular" (95RON/91PON) and 1p more expensive (or 1p a litre cheaper than super [98RON/93PON]). There's no discernable pattern.
 
No to Diesel out side of a need for towing and a desire to have a slightly better fuel economy.

My issues with diesel

  1. They may have better fuel economy, but (in the UK) diesel cars cost more - go on work out just how many miles you would have to do just to break even
  2. They sound quite horrible - I don't care what manufacturers claim you can hear the difference
  3. Diesel spills kill bikers
  4. Diesel smells nasty - petrol smells nice
  5. They have loads of torque - for about a 500 rpm band - which is a bit like being rather well endowed but suffering from PE

I have driven plenty of diesels, none out of choice and I certainly would not own one out of choice, not as something to enjoy driving in.

Regards

Gideon
 
3. Diesel spills kill bikers

More often it's "diesel spills", which also account for Supras, 300ZXs, Elises (very badly) and anything else RWD driven by someone with a leaden right foot...
 
Not true, look at my post I actually ran through the numbers. If you bought a TDI Jetta in 2004 you would already be saving money by getting it over the petrol model. Hybrids are the ones that save you no money, diesels actually do...that is if you keep the car for an average of 5 years, which I think many people do anyways.

I did read your post actually, and it was that which prompted me to point out the missing servicing and consumable costs. If I recall, diesels have shorter service intervals than petrol engines (at least that was true in SA, but probably because of the high sulphur content of diesel there). You can add depreciation to that calculation as well. Going on the poll here, petrols are more popular than diesels, so they would depreciate less, though I can't say if that is reflected in reality. Anyway, I did say "for ages" by which I meant about the three years I'd based my ownership lifetime on. Over longer periods, you might start to save money, but that just means spending even more time driving a diesel :yuck:

Besides, the savings are based on their economy. People are quoting 47mpg from 2.0 diesels on the motorway? My petrol 2.0 16v gets 45mpg at 70mph, so not much saving there. And it's faster than the equivalent (and more modern) turbodiesels in the range.... though not by much.

Jondot
we got a 1.8 Astra as a hire car. An Astra .

I feel your pain, man. I suffered a 2004ish Vectra Estate for a day. Clarkson was right. The car was so crap (i.e. bland) I didn't even bother to find out what engine it had in it. If all cars were like this, I'd have grown up to be a long distance runner.
 
I voted diesel, but that is mainly because they have been holding an increasing amount of my interest as of late. The cheaper prices here in the US and the increasing horsepower levels make them very attractive, given the increase in fuel economy and the nature at which they perform their best (ie, Highway Speeds). This is not to say that I'm giving up on Petrol all together, and I will stand by it for as long as possible, but I do anticipate Diesel being the future here in the US.

Because when GM is reading a 300-ish BHP 4.8L diesel V8 with nearly 500 lb-ft of torque, and it will fit in anything that can take a small-block, while getting nearly 40 MPG... Yeah, I think that should go over well here in the US.

Otherwise, I'll take my L92/LS3 for now...
 
And I ride them almost every weekend, but if you find the sound of diesel buses pleasing you have some serious problems, or perhaps you're deaf and just enjoy the feel of the base.
:lol: You must have not been in NYC to hear these in person. Same for tractor trailors.

I love turbo diesels more than anything else, since alot of them have a cool whistling sound and kick-ass sound, and enough torque to tow a house. They all sound way better than any car I have ever heard, even a Porsche 959. (Or was it 956?)
 
:lol: You must have not been in NYC to hear these in person. Same for tractor trailors.

I love turbo diesels more than anything else, since alot of them have a cool whistling sound and kick-ass sound, and enough torque to tow a house. They all sound way better than any car I have ever heard, even a Porsche 959. (Or was it 956?)

Diesels sound like a loa dof spanners in a bucket, the kick out enough particulates to stun asthmatics at 20 paces and the oh so wonderful torque curve is around for about 500rpm before yet another gear change is needed.

Sorry but a bus sounding better than a 959 :dunce:


Scaff
 
Diesels sound like a loa dof spanners in a bucket, the kick out enough particulates to stun asthmatics at 20 paces and the oh so wonderful torque curve is around for about 500rpm before yet another gear change is needed.

Sorry but a bus sounding better than a 959 :dunce:


Scaff
The torque curve is more like a torque line for these over here, especially the Hybrid Electric ones. Also it depends on which one you are talking about, seeing that there are like 6 variations of each of the 13 buses here, most of them have a great powerband, not every diesel is the same.

I think a inline 6 with over 2700nW of torque shouldn't be ignored. I like turbo diesels, but not many other people do obviously. :scared:

If you try revving a Orion V CNG NYC Spec, and going while you was still revving, expect to see 30MPH in around 4-5 seconds. If you floor it down a hill, and then ease off the gas, you might be able to do over 100MPH fairly easily, but redlining is around 97MPH flooring it. Also it makes a cricketing sound. :odd:

No not the coach bus, the regular ones that came twice in a row.

As for regular diesels, screw them. :lol:
 
For my dad's line of work (towing, driving many kilometres and carrying heavy loads), diesels are of much importance. And although diesel recently jumped 15c a litre in Australia, the F250'S 7.3l turbodisel has many more benefits over the petroleum alternative.
 
most of them have a great powerband
...

If you try revving a Orion V CNG NYC Spec, and going while you was still revving, expect to see 30MPH in around 4-5 seconds. If you floor it down a hill, and then ease off the gas, you might be able to do over 100MPH fairly easily, but redlining is around 97MPH flooring it.

Dude, you're talking about buses. At this rate it won't be long before you're getting a lapdance from Lisa Riley.

I feel your pain, man. I suffered a 2004ish Vectra Estate for a day. Clarkson was right. The car was so crap (i.e. bland) I didn't even bother to find out what engine it had in it. If all cars were like this, I'd have grown up to be a long distance runner.

*Shudder*

It was, comparatively speaking, not all that bad. The interior looked like it had been designed by an A level physics teacher, but other than that I didn't actually mind it. The Astra might actually be the most interesting car they make. GM must be so proud...
 
*Shudder*

It was, comparatively speaking, not all that bad. The interior looked like it had been designed by an A level physics teacher, but other than that I didn't actually mind it. The Astra might actually be the most interesting car they make. GM must be so proud...

What? Oh well, at least the good stuff is just about here anyway...

"Our" Vectra (that is, the Saturn Aura) has a far more appealing interior, and as I understand it, I believe ours may handle better as well. Although, most would agree that it certainly is not the best-handling car in the segment...

Wait for the new Vectra/Insignia later this year. The Epsilon II chassis should prove to be just as capable as the Ford EUCD chassis.
 
[ramble]

Well, this is a debate we've had in Europe, UK and now getting towards it in the US - for the everyday passenger vehicle.

Diesel cars are more expensive to buy.
Diesel cars are heavier, so all engine and fuel economy considerations aside, they will be more expensive to run over their lifetime because they will wear out all their mechanical parts (from clutch to wheelnut) more quickly than petrol cars.
Diesel engines with turbos are (generally) more complex than the equivalent 'total performance' petrol engine - which means your servicing costs are higher.

However.

Diesels are more fuel effificient, because of the way they work.

Actually, in absoulte lab-going-by-the-numbers terms, it's less cut and dried. Petrol engines have lousy efficiency under part-throttle - it was pointed out recently that if the government wanted us to be 'green' about our vehicle use, then if we had a petrol engined vehicle, to eek out maximum efficiency, we must drive everywhere at maximum attack. :D

Diesels have good efficiency under part throttle because of the way their combustion process works.

Both engines' efficiencies are improved by turbo-charging... but there are downsides. Anyone who has suffered turbo lag... or more commonly - stalled a turbo-diesel, will know what I'm talking about.

This debate, certainly within our circles, is exactly as Famine says - it's based on what we want, not rationality. If we all did the sensible thing, we'd all go everywhere on electric trams and trains, and cycle to our local pick-up point. To replace all those 9 million bicycles in Beijing with crappy knock-offs is a monumental step backwards, but people are sheep, no matter where they live.

Any road-going 4-passenger vehicle with more than about 70hp is excessive... unless you live in Germany where one might say the 'agreed sensible limit' for their autobahns in 155mph, so maybe 200hp is about right. Anything more is not required, because it would be a luxury. Now you could argue that the speed limits should change to suit the revised high levels of safety in modern vehicles.

This is, of course, bull.

The amount of energy present in the human body travelling as a projectile will, by the laws of physics, increase as the square of the velocity it travels at. So when your 200mph Enzo hits a 0mph wall, you have to dissipate that energy upon deceleration. Carbon fibre shatters on impact, dissipating lots of energy turning the strong fibres into dust along thousands of fracture lines, breaking the bonds between adjacent molecules with some of that kinetic energy and the end result is a 'more controlled' deceleration. The skull will do something very similar slightly later, if it hits anything harder that a leather trimmed headrest.

But I digress.

So, our ideal 'necessary vehicle' is something like a Smart car, although the choice of powerplant (a turbo 3-pot) is a petrol. For such a utilitarian car, actually, the choice of power probably isn't too important - an economist might describe it as 'fuel elastic'.

But our sporting vehicle, well, that's a different beast.

I have often mused on how long it's taken the Americas to wake up about diesel. After all, the torque curve and power outputs of modern European big turbo-diesel engines very closely mimic that of the old musclecar pushrod V8s... perhaps the 1967 to 1969 Camaro Z/28's infamous 302 excepted.

And the modern turbo-diesel in medium capacity forms, as mentioned, has plenty of low-down shove, which makes for an entertaining ride in a rear-drive platform. It is merely 'mildly interesting' AWD roles, and when pushed hard 'barely tractable' in FWD.

However, I've driven 80s diesels where the 2.0 non-turbo was a better drive than the 1.7 turbo. This confused me a little but because it was diesel, I put it out of my mind... until I recently drove a turbo petrol car which has received rave reviews. And I have to say... I was underwhelmed. It seemed that I would push my foot to the floor, and the power was smooth, and the pickup was good... but as I got faster, it just became less entertaining... as the torque stayed the same, the power went up, but I didn't seem to be getting faster much faster. Very odd. This linearity of torque is actually (whisper it) quite dull.... compared to a VTEC petrol, for instance, which just gets more an more manic the more you psuh it, all the way through it's usable 6,000rpm rev range. It's putting the TDi's 2,500rpm usable range to shame, and the petrol turbo's 4,000 if you're lucky also equally humbled. And built for it, VTEC engines are actually more efficient that the arguably similar complexity in a turbo-diesel.

Now it gets even more twisted. Who needs 'flexibility' someone says - what about CVT transmissions? If you can make a CVT transmission with a high efficiency, then you can take any engine, set it at maximum power/volumetric efficiency and then accelerate at the maximum possible rate by adjusting the gearbox, not the engine speed. It would sound like an aircraft as it did so, which kind of takes the fun away in the sounds (dunno about you, but I made 'brum-brum' noises as a kid... who am I kidding, I sometimes still do) but hey, we're talking about efficiency here!

Ah, who are we kidding, we're not. We're talking about our opinions, what we want. I want to tootle about in relative silence, but when I push the go pedal, I want it to build into an F1 like scream... then select the next gear and do it all again. I've driven turbo-diesels, and they're alright, but the 'drag-oops-change-pause-drag-oops-pause-change-repeat-until-in-sixth-and-don't-change-down' isn't for me. I want to row cogs on demand to have fun. I want to drop from sixth to third on the motorway and obliterate tailgaters. Horrendously antisocial, I know... but then all cars are, period.

[/ramble]
 
I was just wondering this:



Do you consider Opel/Vauxhall/Holden to be American cars? :confused: What about Ford Australia?

SOrry for the OT. :)


Also.... diesels hold their value remarkably well here! :crazy:
 
Do you consider Opel/Vauxhall/Holden to be American cars?
Why do you say that...?

I'm quite sure it's German/British/Australian, even though they are owned by GM. And Saturn's equivalents are American.

Edit: Talking about how busses sound, they sound like industrial hoovers/vacuums but with diesel clatter and whines 10x louder than a car. How is that a good sound...
 
What? Oh well, at least the good stuff is just about here anyway...

"Our" Vectra (that is, the Saturn Aura) has a far more appealing interior, and as I understand it, I believe ours may handle better as well. Although, most would agree that it certainly is not the best-handling car in the segment...

Wait for the new Vectra/Insignia later this year. The Epsilon II chassis should prove to be just as capable as the Ford EUCD chassis.

I like the Aura more than the Vectra. Although that might have something to do with the fact that I've never sat in one. There's quite a lot to be said for Vauxhall's range of diesel engines, I must say.

I was just wondering this:



Do you consider Opel/Vauxhall/Holden to be American cars? :confused: What about Ford Australia?

SOrry for the OT. :)


Also.... diesels hold their value remarkably well here! :crazy:

Because they're all owned by GM.

Really, Opel is German, Vauxhall is British and Holden are Australian, but the cars are pretty much all German Opels most of the time. The 2004 Holden Barina is exactly the same as the 2004 Opel Corsa, for example. Although, the new Barina is a Chevrolet Aveo/Daewoo Kalos. It's a GM model sharing scheme...thing.

Diesels hold their value better over here, too. That's generally speaking - some models do the opposite, of course.
 
Do you consider Opel/Vauxhall/Holden to be American cars? :confused: What about Ford Australia?

While they certainly have an identity as their home market's brands, and certainly should have their respective flags flying over them, GM wants you to recognize that they are in fact GM models, and are "world" vehicles.

From now on (well, 2006+) GM wants to no longer have region-specific models as often as what they used to. The basic structures will be shared across the world, they will all use similar engines and transmissions, and even the interiors will be the same now. Saves money, raises standards, and finally lets the open discussion as to what the Vectra/Insignia/Aura are like in their respective markets.
 
It's FRIES. "Chips?" Jeez, you Euro pansies are silly.

You didn't all take me seriously did you?
 
Although it was tongue in cheek, this is now war!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JCB_Dieselmax
Okay, mine isn't a gasoline car, but it isn't a diesel either. And it's forced induction, not naturally aspirated. But it goes nearly as fast as that big fancy JCB and it doesn't need 3 miles to do it.

So the bottom line is, until you guys really do your homework, diesel FTL.

Anyway, the Honda has shown me that diesels are just boring. I'm just not into accelerating quietly while looking at the tachometer and seeing it creep slowly towards 5000 rpm.
 
hehe where i live diesel cars arent allowed to be sold at dealerships... unless u important urself u can drive them but then the thing is, not every fuelstation has diesel :S :D
 
The torque curve is more like a torque line for these over here, especially the Hybrid Electric ones.
Wow a great torque plot from a hybrid electric, problem with that point is that you will get exactly the same kind of advantage if you stick a hybrid electric motor on a petrol. Electric motors give you almost instant torque.



Also it depends on which one you are talking about, seeing that there are like 6 variations of each of the 13 buses here, most of them have a great powerband, not every diesel is the same.

I think a inline 6 with over 2700nW of torque shouldn't be ignored. I like turbo diesels, but not many other people do obviously. :scared:
And not every petrol engine is the same, compare an idential capacity petrol and turbo diesel engine (and give forced induction the diesel is arguable 'cheating' already) and the petrol will be the better drivers engine, with a greater willingness to rev, more flexibility throughout the rev range and a better weight distribution.



If you try revving a Orion V CNG NYC Spec, and going while you was still revving, expect to see 30MPH in around 4-5 seconds. If you floor it down a hill, and then ease off the gas, you might be able to do over 100MPH fairly easily, but redlining is around 97MPH flooring it. Also it makes a cricketing sound. :odd:
No not the coach bus, the regular ones that came twice in a row.

As for regular diesels, screw them. :lol:
No one here has dismissed that diesel is a better choice for a bus or commercial vehicle, that's not up for discussion. Rather Petrol vs Diesel in an overall manner, and I believe most peoples focus is on passenger cars here.

Still doesn't change the fact that no diesel engine (turbo or not) sounds better than a 959, I've heard more than my share of diesels and been lucky enough to see a 959 on track and its not even close.


Regards

Scaff
 
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